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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2008 at 00:19
God is obviously not unable. He is infinite and supreme. However, why would God the supreme take on a inferior form?

Why do you limit God and say what God can and cannot do???

The story of the man and his son who were watching an ant colony comes to mind. In short the man said to his son the only way we could communicate to the ants is for one of us to become one them and live amongst them.

So in Christian tradition God had to take the form of a sinless man.

Now, if this is what they want to believe then I see no problem.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2008 at 09:54
If God becomes man, then dies on the cross... then he has limited himsef there has he not?




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2008 at 16:02
Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:

If God becomes man, then dies on the cross... then he has limited himsef there has he not?



 
Not in his love for his creation.
 
And you forget that God did not die on the Cross. In his humanity, Christ suffered, indeed to the point of death; in his divinity, death could not swallow him up. You may critique the notion of the hypostatic union, but to state that the Passion and Crucifixion limits God is completely untenable.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2008 at 16:32
Don't both Islam and Christianity hold that dying is not ceasing to exist? For everybody?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2008 at 16:38
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Don't both Islam and Christianity hold that dying is not ceasing to exist? For everybody?
 
Aye, that and they do. And it would seem that this would be especially likely if the individual who died just happened to be a theanthropos, wouldn't it? LOL
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2008 at 16:38
Originally posted by eaglecap eaglecap wrote:

God is obviously not unable. He is infinite and supreme. However, why would God the supreme take on a inferior form?

Why do you limit God and say what God can and cannot do???

The story of the man and his son who were watching an ant colony comes to mind. In short the man said to his son the only way we could communicate to the ants is for one of us to become one them and live amongst them.

So in Christian tradition God had to take the form of a sinless man.

Now, if this is what they want to believe then I see no problem.
 
 
 
We actually don't say what God can or cannot do. God says that Himself (as is written in the Qu'ran).
 
God does not violate His own laws. Numerous times has God said that He is like no other.
 
17:77 Such has always been Our Law with all of Our Messengers, We sent before you. You will never find a change in Our Laws.
 
This is only one quote that shows that this message is universal and not just for messengers. Of course God's power and glory are infinite. He just doesn't violate his word in the process of his greatness.
 
Man/Women have the ability to choose by the faculty known as free will. We can lie or tell truths to ourselves and our conscious (psyche) will pick that up. God knows this as well and that is why he has created the word kafir in order to discriminate between those who bury the truths and follow self-proclaimed truths (sometimes known as traditional or blind ambitions) versus those who are aware of God's laws and do not try to keep this from their conscious (lie to self). Ironically God has enabled humans to believe or disbelieve in His wisdom and has allowed us to bury truths if we so choose. That is part of our given 'free will'.
 
This post is not in comparison to Christianity. This is only an Islamic point of view. Of course the two theologies do have adverse differences as to the use of God's power and lifting of that other than God to Godhood status. There are many more quotes that can be garnered to show the need to remain objective versus defending our man made belife systems.
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2008 at 16:39
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Don't both Islam and Christianity hold that dying is not ceasing to exist? For everybody?
 
Dying is the body's cessation to exist. The Ruh or soul continues to the next life.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2008 at 17:05
Originally posted by Seko Seko wrote:

We actually don't say what God can or cannot do. God says that Himself (as is written in the Qu'ran).
 
God does not violate His own laws. Numerous times has God said that He is like no other.
 
17:77 Such has always been Our Law with all of Our Messengers, We sent before you. You will never find a change in Our Laws.
 
This is only one quote that shows that this message is universal and not just for messengers. Of course God's power and glory are infinite. He just doesn't violate his word in the process of his greatness.
 
And herein lies a key difference, as I see it. My response would be that God can violate His Own laws, precisely because He transcends them. They are made for the governance of the world, and for us. I would note that miracles, themselves, are often -- though not always -- violations of the order of nature to a greater or lesser degree.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2008 at 18:01
Originally posted by Akolouthos Akolouthos wrote:

Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:

If God becomes man, then dies on the cross... then he has limited himsef there has he not?



 
Not in his love for his creation.
 
And you forget that God did not die on the Cross. In his humanity, Christ suffered, indeed to the point of death; in his divinity, death could not swallow him up. You may critique the notion of the hypostatic union, but to state that the Passion and Crucifixion limits God is completely untenable.
 
-Akolouthos


So then somehow there was God the Human and God the Divine at the same time...

I am not sure that I follow

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2008 at 19:15
Originally posted by Akolouthos Akolouthos wrote:

Originally posted by Seko Seko wrote:

We actually don't say what God can or cannot do. God says that Himself (as is written in the Qu'ran).
 
God does not violate His own laws. Numerous times has God said that He is like no other.
 
17:77 Such has always been Our Law with all of Our Messengers, We sent before you. You will never find a change in Our Laws.
 
This is only one quote that shows that this message is universal and not just for messengers. Of course God's power and glory are infinite. He just doesn't violate his word in the process of his greatness.
 
And herein lies a key difference, as I see it. My response would be that God can violate His Own laws, precisely because He transcends them. They are made for the governance of the world, and for us. I would note that miracles, themselves, are often -- though not always -- violations of the order of nature to a greater or lesser degree.
 
-Akolouthos
 
I never did finish my posts on the thread I opened some time ago about miracles and things. My answer here would be fitting for that topic as well.
 
I agree that a key difference exists in understanding our philosophies about how our religious views concerning God's and also man's attributes vary. My understanding is that God's words do not have contradictions. His system is consistant with his creations. A flaw in the works and the system then falls flat. Our creator cannot be a hypocrite and inconsistant while telling us our system is complete. He upholds the very laws he creates. Now does this belief mean that those of God cannot do seemingly miraculous feats? Not at all. We sure can, all within the bounds of his own laws.
 
Since time is relative, and that we have a seemingly finite understanding of the principles of physics, astronomy, and such; our fascination with creating an unknown entity in order to accept the notion of miracles is more similar to wishfull  falacy. The actual principles for such wonderously unfathomable experiences must have its roots embedded in the current structure of our universe. We just do not have all of the pieces to this puzzle explained to us on a silver platter as of yet. This may be due to our current limited knowledge base. A base that will eventually expand with our growth in new scientific discoveries.
 
Does God have to abide by his created system? Good question and one I wouldn't have the foggiest about. However, for people God does proclaim that his system is for every living thing. Not only is that system one of religious jursiprudence, nor only of faith; it is a system of laws for everything that sustains the universe whether we beleive in them or not.
 
“Are they seeking other than GOD's religion (system), when everything in the heavens and the earth has submitted to Him, willingly and unwillingly, and to Him they will be returned?” (Quran 3:83)
 
 
The religious connotations of this system have also been foretold to our prophetic ancestors.
 
“He decreed for you the same SYSTEM decreed for Noah, and what we inspired to you, and what we decreed for Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: "You shall uphold this one SYSTEM, and do not divide it." (Quran 42:13)
 
“The count of months, as far as GOD is concerned, is twelve. This has been GOD's law, since the day He created the heavens and the earth...” (Quran 9:36)
 
“He is the One who sent His messenger with the guidance and the system of truth, to make it EXPOSE all other systems, in spite of the idol worshipers.” (Quran 9:33)
 
"The sun and the moon are perfectly calculated. The stars and the trees prostrate. He constructed the sky and established the law. You shall not transgress the law." (55:7-8).
 
"It is He (God) who has made the earth manageable for you, so traverse ye through its tracts and enjoy of the Sustenance which He furnishes: but unto Him is the Resurrection." (67:15)
 
To God belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth, and all matters are controlled by God (3:109).
 
 
In summary all living creatures have a system in place to abide by. God does uphold the laws this system is made up of. He may or may not transcend his own laws. He may simply abide by them Himself. I don't know. The real fact of the matter is that we are the ones sugjected to Him and his laws.
 
 


Edited by Seko - 11-Jan-2008 at 19:38
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2008 at 19:36
As I hinted at in the previous post, I lagged behind and haven't posted in a thread I opened about premonitions and miracles lately. I will hopefully get to that shortly. In it I'll provide my scientific understanding of the principles of natural laws that Jesus and other prophets have used in their pursuit of and use in what we call 'miracles'.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2008 at 19:57
Quote God does not violate His own laws. Numerous times has God said that He is like no other.


But does that mean he cannot wear a "mask". I mean Christians believe that Jesus is like no other man, perhaps in form but we cannot be sure of that. Maybe Christ came forth from Mary in the form of a Flying Spaghetti Monster and no one questioned it. Maybe there's a reason Christ's true image was never recorded.

Quote
So then somehow there was God the Human and God the Divine at the same time...

I am not sure that I follow


It's okay not many Christians fully understand the Trinity, I would even say I don't fully understand the Trinity. Basically when speaking of God and durations of time you need to be very careful, because God is beyond our mortal concepts of time. God is unending and uncreated so he existed in his current form for eternity. When Jesus was on earth of course God was in heaven, but so was Jesus the Holy Spirit and all the souls of everyone who has ever lived or ever will live......wait a minute you say that's impossible. Not if heaven exists outside of our mortal reckoning of time, which it does. Technically we are all all ready in heaven right now, it's just our bodies haven't realized it yet. The same thing works with Christ, he has always been with the father and the father has always been with him. Sorry if that just made it more confusing. Confused


Edited by JanusRook - 11-Jan-2008 at 19:57
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2008 at 20:39
Originally posted by Seko Seko wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Don't both Islam and Christianity hold that dying is not ceasing to exist? For everybody?
 
Dying is the body's cessation to exist. The Ruh or soul continues to the next life.
 
Then where is the problem with God dying and continuing? If everybody does?
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2008 at 21:48
Originally posted by Seko Seko wrote:

I agree that a key difference exists in understanding our philosophies about how our religious views concerning God's and also man's attributes vary. My understanding is that God's words do not have contradictions. His system is consistant with his creations. A flaw in the works and the system then falls flat. Our creator cannot be a hypocrite and inconsistant while telling us our system is complete. He upholds the very laws he creates. Now does this belief mean that those of God cannot do seemingly miraculous feats? Not at all. We sure can, all within the bounds of his own laws.
 
Since time is relative, and that we have a seemingly finite understanding of the principles of physics, astronomy, and such; our fascination with creating an unknown entity in order to accept the notion of miracles is more similar to wishfull  falacy. The actual principles for such wonderously unfathomable experiences must have its roots embedded in the current structure of our universe. We just do not have all of the pieces to this puzzle explained to us on a silver platter as of yet. This may be due to our current limited knowledge base. A base that will eventually expand with our growth in new scientific discoveries.
 
Does God have to abide by his created system? Good question and one I wouldn't have the foggiest about. However, for people God does proclaim that his system is for every living thing. Not only is that system one of religious jursiprudence, nor only of faith; it is a system of laws for everything that sustains the universe whether we beleive in them or not.
 
Interesting, and forgive me for not responding at length. I really just wanted to note a thought I had when I responded to your first post, and would be interested to know if it matches with reality. Are miracles in Islam less supernatural in nature than those in Christianity? That is to say are they generally associated with things that could occur through an uncommonly convenient conglomeration of natural factors? The storm at Yarmouk came to mind.
 
That said, I have no idea whether or not this is the case. I just wanted to throw it out there for someone who is more knowledgable on the subject than I.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2008 at 09:54
Look, the bottom line is you cannot reconcile the Trinity with Islam, because at a fundamental level Islam rejects any notion of trinity, any notion of Jesus (pbuh) being other than a man, and condemns any person who does.
This is a very basic part of Islam, and there is no room for interpretation.
Quote In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every - one that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things." [5:17]

So, yes Janus, this does mean that in Islamic belief Jesus cannot be God in a mask.

As to the above post, if I understand you correctly Seko then I have always thought a very similar thing. That when God performs a miracle, that miracle is performed within the bounds of the established laws.
I think Ako, that in the Islamic viewpoint the entire world, including miracles, is less supernatural than in Christianity. But then nature, is more supernatural. If that makes any sense at all. I personally would never say I believed in supernatural beings, because I don't consider beings that I do believe in (like Jin) to be outside of nature
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2008 at 16:56
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

As to the above post, if I understand you correctly Seko then I have always thought a very similar thing. That when God performs a miracle, that miracle is performed within the bounds of the established laws.
I think Ako, that in the Islamic viewpoint the entire world, including miracles, is less supernatural than in Christianity. But then nature, is more supernatural. If that makes any sense at all. I personally would never say I believed in supernatural beings, because I don't consider beings that I do believe in (like Jin) to be outside of nature
 
That makes quite a lot of sense; a very concise explanatione. It's what I was thinking, and I just couldn't phrase it well. It would be an interesting topic for a scholar of comparative religion. I wonder if anyone has taken it up? Anyway, thank you for the answer. Smile
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2008 at 19:41
Quote In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary.


But see this is why the Trinity is the greatest mystery of the faith, because it is a seeming contradiction of itself. Because see you can use the Trinity to agree with that statement, since it is not Christ the son of Mary who is "God", it is the Word who appears on this world in Christ's flesh. I don't know I feel like I'm just running around in circles but I can't help it since it's difficult to get around the fact that Gods aspects are separate and united in the indivisible Godhead.

-----------------

Actually this is a continuation of one of my most prevalent thoughts on Christ's nature, that I'd like people such as Akolouthos who are versed in Christian doctrine to help me out on. Is it an error to commit Christ's human form to a mere "flesh-puppet" does this violate the Hypostatic Union? I had always thought that Christ, God and the Holy Spirit shared a "soul" (well not exactly a soul but a divinity I guess). So does that mean that Jesus the man required a separate "human soul" to be fully human or that he fulfills that role by being made out of the "same clay as Adam". I have never thought it to be the former, so it must be the latter and thus the body of Christ must be essentially an "empty vessel"? Or am I just reinventing an old heretical view that I'm unaware of?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2008 at 20:36
Hello Janus
 
I don't exactly know what is the goal of this post. Omar gave to you plain and simple. God is transcendental. The only source of knowledge about God is what he says about himself. Because of his nature, we don't know what his hand looks like, or what is his face but we believe that he has a hand and a face and other attributes he attributed to himself that are fit for his golry and majesty. He is unique and that suffices.
 
Now who is jesus, Jesus as God says in the Quran is like Adam, both were created, one out of nothing the other without a father. Adam was created by God himself while Jesus came through birth.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2008 at 01:16
Quote I don't exactly know what is the goal of this post.


I don't know either, really, basically I like discussing theology and want to learn more about it, I'm trying to create a scenario where the Islamic concept of God does not conflict with the Christian concept of God to discover whether it's possible for both religions to be mutually inclusive of each other in some sense. Also I think that there is a lot of misunderstanding of critical Christian dogma in much of the muslim world and that this creates a prejudice that is detrimental to religious dialogue. I dislike answers without reasoning and questioning behind it. Weren't there great muslims clerics that debated the nature of God or did everyone just agree that we take the Quran at face value and refuse to believe any of it is metaphor, analogy or allegory and everything is literal?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2008 at 05:58
Originally posted by JanusRook JanusRook wrote:

Quote I don't exactly know what is the goal of this post.


I don't know either, really, basically I like discussing theology and want to learn more about it, I'm trying to create a scenario where the Islamic concept of God does not conflict with the Christian concept of God to discover whether it's possible for both religions to be mutually inclusive of each other in some sense. Also I think that there is a lot of misunderstanding of critical Christian dogma in much of the Muslim world and that this creates a prejudice that is detrimental to religious dialog. I dislike answers without reasoning and questioning behind it. Weren't there great Muslims clerics that debated the nature of God or did everyone just agree that we take the Qu'ran at face value and refuse to believe any of it is metaphor, analogy or allegory and everything is literal?


The Qu'ran is a book of metaphors at least in most Sunni and Shi'a interpretations, and not meant to be taken literary, Salafists do that, the Khajiris did, and in Christianity there are a lot of Protestant, mainly southern Baptist churches that take the Bible as the literal word of God. So in turn there are various different interpretations. Check out some of the earlier Islamic scholars on the question ranging from the various founders of the four schools of thought to philosophers...

I'll compile a list of some if you would like

Sometimes its best to glance over primary source material too. The topic is good. No matter everyones various views. Its good to have a discussion on theology in my mind as long as its contained within acceptable bounds and no flame-war intending posters post, both of which have been achieved so far.



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