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Forum LockedMuslim groupings - Clarification please?

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Mira View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mira Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 13:44
Originally posted by Leonidas Leonidas wrote:

@Mira,
 i didnt think the Druze were considred muslim.


Hello Leonidas,

Most Muslims don't consider the Druze to be part of the Islamic fold, but the origins of their faith supposedly stems out of the Shiite Ismaili branch of Islam.  As far as ethnicity is concerned, the Druze consider themselves to be Arabs.  And since "Arab" is not a primarily ethnic identity that is passed down through blood, but a linguistic one, I'm not sure about all Druze being Arabs, especially those who reside in Turkey and Israel.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote šok geš Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 15:04

Originally posted by Mira Mira wrote:

[QUOTE=Leonidas] I'm not sure about all Druze being Arabs, especially those who reside in Turkey and Israel.

Well, those Druz in Israel are actually active citizens including military servicemen. Most of secret policemen who dress like regular Palestinians and walk the streets are Arab Druz, especially in IDF and the Shabak. For some reason, they are easily assembled to Israel than even Arab Muslim or Christian Israelis. A famous case that shows their isolation from the Palestinian majority is the case of an Israeli officer pumping the body of a 13-year-old girl full of bullets.  He later said that he would have shot her even if she had been three years old. Most Palestinians I met too would consider them a seperate identity than Muslims for clear reasons on both sides.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2006 at 23:07
Hi Mira,

yes their roots are in egypt i think, an interesting bunch with a very cryptic religion that no one knows to much about. They arent what i would consider muslim, cok gec has some examples to add to this, while in lebenon they werent exactly good to christians either. They are there own people that will take any side that benefits them only, christian,jewish or muslim.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alparslan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2006 at 06:15

Originally posted by Leonidas Leonidas wrote:

I hear that there are differenses between turkish alawe and syrian alawe, does anyone know the spefics here

Turkish Alevites and Arab Alevites (Nusairis) are almost completely different. In fact if one is Alevite it means that other is not.

The Turkish Alevites belief is mainly a mixture of Central Asian shaman and Islamic belief systems. It was once supported by nomadic Turcomans of Anatolia and Iran. Finally, they establised Safavid state as a rival to Ottomans. They are considered Shia but they are very different than Iranian Shia at the present. For example women do not wear hadscarf, women and men's status are equal in terms of religion, they are completely secular and strong supporters of Ataturk. Bektashi order is the urban version of Alevites. They are almost the same in terms of philoshopy. But Bektashi order is much more sophisticated in terms of rituals.  Bektashi order was the most important religious way along with Sunni Mevlevi order in Ottoman Empire.

In modern Turkey there is only one exception of religous symbol used in state affaires; it is Alevites-Bektashi star as it can be seen from the picture below carried by a "Alevite dede" to symbolise Turks.

In Turkish passeports, in every pages we have this Alevite-Bektashi symbol.

As far as Nusairis are concerned, first most of them are ethnically Arabs and secondly they are heavily influenced by Christianity. From rituals to philoshophy they are different than Turkish Alevites except they are both Mohammed and Ali followers and they are both considered Shia.  But I do not think that it is right to consider Turkish Alevites - Bektashis as Shia if we look at the Iran as Shia. They are so different from each others.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bashibozuk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2006 at 08:23

Thank you for your enlightening reply Alparslan.

Turkish Alevites are the original Islamified Turks. Because Turks have learned Islam in Central Asia by Hodja Ahmed Yesevi, and after they entered Khorasan, they formed their own way of Islamic life, a new sect. Anatolia had much more Alevis before the reign of Sultan Selim when a lot of these people were massacred or exiled. But Iran, a dominantly Sunnite society before Haydarogli Shah Ismail, was converted by Turkmens of Ardebil to Shia sect. Some refer these people as "Kizilbash", altough it is a false way of naming them all.

Nusayris are claimed to be from Arabic origin, but their deep origins show that they are assimilated from Turkic roots. According to their belief, they are sons of the Turkish wife of Harun Rashid. They were settled to the borders of the Abbasids with the Byzanthine Empire, just like over 30,000 Turkish soldiers under Abbasid rule. The Turkish commanders who settled Nusayris in southern Turkey once are Ebu Suleym Ferec al hadim et Turki, El Af■in Haydar and others. Their language was assimilated into Arabic in Northern Syria, so most of them know themselves as Arabs today.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2006 at 07:46
Even the Bohris, Bahais were not considered muslims in different periods.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Turgay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Feb-2009 at 06:21
This is bit more than a massiage from someone just joinedup, and forgive the typos Big smile
 
 
I simlple have few rules:
Never confuse:
1:Person to countrys
2:Nation to languages
3:people to religions
I write and play music Songs,
 "Baglama/Saz" A wary special instrument even to none Aleviy Turks, since I am new member, to make it clear, I am at the knolige to write a history book, but every sorce that I'll like to point to is mucked with therefore it is no deferent to trying pin point to an pree historic event.
I hope we all  Know what "Sufi" standsfore? lol, I can call it "Sifu" in chinese it is Hoca, or teacher, and one dosent have to have fath or belong to any belive system to be "Sufi" Sufis'm is a belive system on its own yet it is because of the Sufi's that religions stay alive and gets passed on, and in Turkish "Sufi" has other names but, by peoples comman language, "Sofu" wary relegus person it come to be knowen, a fanatick,  but its not sim-ple is that whan there is Turk in it, I had stoped reserching some years back, sudinly I'm joging my memory. 
As for Ata Yasar from 1106 to 1166.
By any calander, he didnt live before Islam, he was a poet Muslim mystic: some call him the pioneer of popular mysticism.
Yes he did had  powerful influence throughout the Turkish speaking world. Was he Turkish? no one can say, yet founder of firs Turkish Tarika or Tariqad, it seems like its not what but in what language. Without prejudes: at the time Moslums from other nationalities was looked down up on by Arab Moslums because of none Arabic background and lets say Ata made it pousible for Turkish people to read and write Islam in their own language, 'does Allah or God only thinks and cominicates in Arabic?' no, it is all a long tyring work.
 Birth place of Hoca Ahmed Yaseviy Yasi? a place in Turkistan or Yaseve is Sayram both names foun in Kazakistan now.  Just like the firs men, Turks and how and why? they left Central Asia is still unknowen to say this is this!
Here we are talking about before Chrise, 'The big migration of Turks, or was it?,
 the world cals it that ,
if Turks didnt live their land their on now for unknowen years, whay would all the Turks live Central asia, Nicks "Basibozuk" or "Arpaslan" made me happy that some one got hold of the true history records, but with all due respact, good intend ill information no goot to, this man didnt live before Islam, however it is good not to just push a side such people, to put together a tarika back than was like building an Ampire, and to say Turks are or was and or Asians was and or from one and other is not right to, not every Turk will like to be or wants to be Asion,  just as people rendomly use the word "Kizilbas" or Redhead where Shii is Greenhead, its due to colours they put on.Most of the Moslums who mind theirown thing would know the names Aleviy Kizilbas,to most it=same same and wouldnt even know what  is mant by "Kizilbas"  ,Aleviy is open name "Ali"viy, yet polomic use the name Kizilbas, it=lower level  servent of Ali+eviy, ugly mind of palomic wont stop, in the pass just as polomic frouned at the Turk for being a Turk insted of loving and being happy that Turk is a Moslom, the only nation in anyones history and  the only nation in the world who lifted up Islam everytime it fall, that is one thing I or anyone with bit of knolige about history can say forsure.
 
Turgay
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Feb-2009 at 10:25
Hello to you all
 
What brought this thread to life?
 
Anyway for your knowledge, the difference schools gcle asked about is explained next.
 
The difference between the madhabs is on how they interpret the texts of Hadith and Quran.
 
Hadiths are codified and classified into many catagories and each one has a different degree of strength than the other based on several criteria. Each of the madhabs has its own criteria of accepting a Hadith or denying it during the process of making judgments or fatwas. 
 
If no Hadith or Quranic text exists to make a clear judgement on a certain question each madhab developed its own systematic way to determine what is the rule with regard to this question.
 
Initially there were as much as 10 madhabs but they dwindled to the main four with some intellectuals here and there adhering to the fifth sunni madhab known as Dhahiri or Zahiri.
 
While most of the madhabs are quite similar there are extremes. Shafies for example have the most extreme view of Jihad of all the madhabs. Actually all the other three have virtually the same views (and are largely moderate) about Jihad but the Shafieis have a much more extreme view of it, their view of jihad form the basis of modern day takfiris, who come from all madhabs, and this is natural. All takfiri theorists are Egyptian and nearly all Egyptians are shafeis.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Basmachi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2009 at 01:32
I want to correcta mistake.

Sunnis are not Orthodox Islam.

Orthodox Islam is Wahabism. Wahabis care almost only Qur'an-─▒ Qarim.  They deny some parts of Sunnah. But Sunnis care firstly Quran, secondly Sunnah, thirdly Imam of sect, lastly own intellect.

Hanafis, Shafis, Hanbalis and Malikis are all Sunni sects. Each one of them recognize others.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2009 at 01:56
Wahabism, Salafism - something that came out of the last 2 centuries or so is "legitimate" or "orthodox" Islam, but "Sunni" something that a lot of Wahabis/Salafists even claim they are is not.

Talk about lack of common sense and cohesive argument.

Sects? They are schools of thoughts - a sect is a bit different from that.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Basmachi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2009 at 10:38
Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:

Wahabism, Salafism - something that came out of the last 2 centuries or so is "legitimate" or "orthodox" Islam, but "Sunni" something that a lot of Wahabis/Salafists even claim they are is not.

Talk about lack of common sense and cohesive argument.

Sects? They are schools of thoughts - a sect is a bit different from that.


I used "sect" as "madhab". It may be wrong, I'm sorry.

And also I mean "directly attached book, pure Qur'an" using Orthodox term. Like Orthodox Marxism, I know they only care Marx&Engels, not Lenin, Stalin, Mao or sbody else. It also may be a wrong usage. I'm sorry.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2009 at 15:13
I was confused for the same reason es_bih was, but I think we likely just misunderstood the sense in which you were using the term "orthodox"; I think I'm clear on it now.

-Akolouthos
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2009 at 15:34

Hello to you all

First of all, Again and Again there is no such thing as Wahhabism. Wahhabism was a reform movement that introduced nothing in religion. There are simply puritans who wanted to end certain influences that entered Sunni thought. Same thing goes to salafists.

Second point, who told you that Wahhabis don't accept Hadith? As a graduate of a wahhabi education system I beg to differ. They do have stricter conditions to accept a hadith that deals with theology but that is it, in the rest they follow traditional ruling of the madhabs.
 
Finally, the reason why sunnis are called orthodox is because they are literally are. Orthodox means the follower of the original way. Since shiism only appeared (as an establsihed sect with its own philosophy and religious dogmas) in the mid 8th century (150 years after the prophet) and other sects developed later (except for Kharijites who actually adopt alot of sunni doctrines), I think the naming is appropriate.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Basmachi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2009 at 17:15
Is there a difference between Wahabism and Salafism? I think they are same.

I wrote Wahhabis are Orthodox because they are against to Sufism. Sufism is "a science whose objective is the reparation of the heart and turning it away from all else but God". It starts with Ali ibn Abi-Talib. (But he didn't found Shia.) Wahhabis are ultra-formalist. But Sufism is a work of soul/heart.

Actually, I want to write many thing about this topic but my English is a little bit insufficient.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2009 at 04:47
whats some call wahabism or salafism are actully Hanbali
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