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Theodore Felix View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Theodore Felix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 16:37
Quote You wont recognize TRNC, will you?


Not a chance.
Especially not at this moment, when Greece has turned a small sway in our direction on the Kosova issue. Just stick with Azerbaijzan for now.

Anyway, for a good overview of the religious situation in Albania, look at
this article.

Quote So at least, greece begin to use her mind.(to bad for us)


I think you need to stop viewing everything so confrontationally. Albs always said, when regarding Serbs, its too bad that Kosova has divided us so much, we might have become pretty good friends.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 16:53

Originally posted by Theodore Felix Theodore Felix wrote:

Greek diplomats urge change in government policy on Kosovo

Text of report by Irini Karanasopoulou, entitled "Kosovo like... USA", published by Greek newspaper Ta Nea on 13 March; subheadings and ellipsis in newspaper headline as published

High-level diplomatic officials of the Foreign Ministry are suggesting a turn of the country's foreign policy on Kosovo so that there will be openings towards the Albanians and a "diplomatic reception" of the almost certain independence of the area in 2006.

This would be an interesting development indeed.

I thought Greece was concerned about "being encircled by muslims".

I personally do not expect a revision of Greek foreign policy towards Kosovo, if it happens I would be positively surprised.

In any case expect a strong backlash from Greek public opinion against such a revisied policy towards Kosovo - most Greeks still view the Serbs as their "brothers" and allies.



Edited by bg_turk
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Neoptolemos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 18:12
Originally posted by OSMANLI OSMANLI wrote:

"Albania is surrounded by Serbian Orthodox and Greek Orthodox countries. Any "Christian" Albanians would most likely be Orthodox. If they are Orthodox, then the Greeks and Serbs claim that they are then Greeks or Serbs -something that is as logical as saying that every Roman Catholic is Roman. The Albanian Orthodox church often relies on the Greek Orthodox, which has been used by Greek nationalists to say that Albanians are Orthodox, and by association Greek -ridiculous. Catholicism is only starting to be spread in the country, so the only choice for many Albanians is Islam -it is not a religious issue, but a nationalistic one, so as to differentiate between Albanians and their neighbors."

Greeks as a whole for some reason see the faith and ethinicty as being one and the same. This thought is often promoted by their priests, so you are right abou that point.

Osmanli you are wrong. Greeks don't see the faith and ethnicity as one and the same. Being Greek Orthodox alone does not make you Greek and vice-versa. However, most of the (pre-1990) Orthodox Albanians were of Greek origin.  If not, they would have no reason to speak Greek. Today there are many Albanians who converted to Christianity and have learned Greek, but they are not considered Greek but Albanians.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Neoptolemos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 18:33
Originally posted by Mortaza Mortaza wrote:

And that's really the only thing Greece needs to wrongfully annex Southern Albania.

Greece cannot do it, well at least not when there is a turkey.

Quote I complately agree with you, I am talking about near future. Turkey wont let greece to annex any land because of Turkey-greece conflict.

At least, now without giving our share. I am talking about politics not friendship.


What makes you people believe that Greece will try to annex Southern Albania. Greece has no plans to do sth like this. But lets assume, for the sake of discussion, that she decides to do it. What will Turkey do? They will annex the rest of Albania?? We are not living in the Ottoman empire times, you know... Actually I believe that in a few years Albania will be an ally of Greece and not Turkey. Times are changing and economic relationships (trade, FDI etc.) have a lot to do with it

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote St. Francis of Assisi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 19:23
It appears that many of the Greeks on this forum believe Albanians are predominately Muslim. I disagree. If, say, my choice was between renouncing my nationality (Italian) and renouncing my religion (Catholic), I would choose my religion. This is the choice that many Albanians have been put through.

Besides, Albania is the most predominately atheistic and agnostic country on earth. The Albanian Orthodox church is separate from the Greek one, but for some reason Greeks consider it synonymous with the Greek Orthodox church, which it is not.

I do not know where you are getting the myth of "most Orthodox people in Albania are Greek". Albanians are agnostic or atheistic predominately, then the other religions, Islam, Catholicism, and Orthodoxy, are rather close. I am using an unpublished survey as my source, and the word of my Albanian friends.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Neoptolemos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 21:12
Originally posted by St. Francis of Assisi St. Francis of Assisi wrote:

It appears that many of the Greeks on this forum believe Albanians are predominately Muslim.

Personally I don't know what they are, because they come from an atheistic/agnostic background.

Quote Besides, Albania is the most predominately atheistic and agnostic country on earth. The Albanian Orthodox church is separate from the Greek one, but for some reason Greeks consider it synonymous with the Greek Orthodox church, which it is not.

The Orthodox Church of Albania is autocephalous and of course it isn't synonymous with the (also autocephalous) Greek Orthodox church. However, it has strong ties with the Ecumenical Patriarchate and the Greek Church.

Quote I do not know where you are getting the myth of "most Orthodox people in Albania are Greek". Albanians are agnostic or atheistic predominately, then the other religions, Islam, Catholicism, and Orthodoxy, are rather close. I am using an unpublished survey as my source, and the word of my Albanian friends.

Firtly, we have to differentiate between the pre-1990 situation and today's situation. In my post I spoke about before 1990, and I said that  at that time most of the Orthodox Albanians were of Greek origin. I must clarify here that I refer mainly to Southern Albania, where the Greek minority is consentrated. I don't know how many Albanians in the rest of the country were Orthodox.
This is not a myth my friend. The myth is that the Greek minority consists of 50,000 people only.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote St. Francis of Assisi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 21:29
The Greek minority consists of less than 50,000 by all figures that I have seen. Increasing its size for nationalistic reasons seems dishonest to me. Of course, if you can show me evidence, I can be persuaded.

Before 1990, what you are saying is ridiculous. There was no religion in Albania, Greek Orthodox or otherwise. Religion was forbidden, and it was an atheistic state. Just goes to show how much you know about the situation. Just kidding. But, admit now, you are using nationalist propoganda, no?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ILIR THE GREAT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 21:49

The reason why the cia still counts the Albanians are being 70% muslim is because they also count Kosova, Macedonia, Greece and Montenegro...Where about 20% are Bektashi (half christian and half muslim and some Illyrian traditions), others are orthodox, and as opposed to the thinking that there are more orthodox than catholics in Albania, that is wrong actually, there are more catholics than orthodox within Albanian borders...True it is more agnostic/atheist even in Kosova and Macedonia (I'm am from Macedonia)...But ALBANIANS RELIGION IS THEIR BLOOD!

and I like this one thing written by a turk when they were fighting the Albanians and Gjergj Kastrioti Skanderbeg...

"The Albanians/Arnautlar, these tigers of mountain wars ... have as their religion rebellion. Even their worst warrior is one of the strongest and bravest on the battle-field, just as if he was a knight on the legendary horse. But he has no horse, nor proper weapons for battle. Instead of the horse, he has a lance which strikes as lightning, he has spears who's points are full of posion as the sting of hornets, he has also a wooden bow with some arrows. Furthermore, he is stronger than iron ... "
- Ibn Kemal, Historian of the Turkish court
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Neoptolemos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 22:01
Originally posted by St. Francis of Assisi St. Francis of Assisi wrote:

The Greek minority consists of less than 50,000 by all figures that I have seen. Increasing its size for nationalistic reasons seems dishonest to me. Of course, if you can show me evidence, I can be persuaded.

Before 1990, what you are saying is ridiculous. There was no religion in Albania, Greek Orthodox or otherwise. Religion was forbidden, and it was an atheistic state. Just goes to show how much you know about the situation. Just kidding. But, admit now, you are using nationalist propoganda, no?


I will tell you a couple of things now and if I find some evidence for the Greek minority I will come back with further comments.

The (Albanian) political party that is founded to represent Albania's ethnic Greek population (Unity for Human Rights Party) got about 56,000 votes in the last elections. Add to that the people that didn't go to vote (or couldn't vote) and the people that moved to Greece over the last 15 years and you will see that they are much more than 50,000.

"Before 1990, what you are saying is ridiculous."
I want to ask the Albanian forumers if it is rediculous to differentiate between before 1990 amd after. I know that religion was forbidden, but that doesn't mean that the regime managed to make everybody an atheist. Think about it.

But, admit now, you are using nationalist propoganda, no?
One thing that I would hate to do is to use nationalistic propaganda, whether you believe it or not. If I say sth that is not true, this is because I don't know the truth and not b/c I know the truth and I am trying to distort it. (Note that I don't read/learn only Greek stuff to reach my conclusions).
If there were only let's say 5,000 Greeks in Albania I would have no problem to admit it. Why would I want to claim Albanians as Greeks? Think about this as well
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote St. Francis of Assisi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 23:40
Anyone found practicing religion during the Communist regime was shot or put in prison. It was a Stalinist regime, and the most brutal in Eastern Europe, not like Poland or Czechoslovakia. So, yes, there was no way to practice religion during that time. The country was the first atheistic country in the world. It remains predominately agnostic.

As for the Albanian Greek population, the election results of a country like Albania are not trustworthy. I mean, come on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Neoptolemos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 23:52
Originally posted by St. Francis of Assisi St. Francis of Assisi wrote:


As for the Albanian Greek population, the election results of a country like Albania are not trustworthy. I mean, come on.

What do you mean? That actually less than 56,000 voted for the "Greek" party or that people were forced to vote for this party? Or maybe it could be the other way around??

EDIT: May I ask you where are you from? Are you really from the Vatican? Just curious


Edited by Neoptolemos
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2006 at 00:09
You don't have to come from a Stalinist regime to become masively disinterested in religion. Spain came from a fundamentalist regim to the same result.

It's just that the language religion (church, mosque, etc.) talks is not anymore valid for the average person. The churches say: "do not use condoms, have many children" - common sense says: "be a responsible parent" or "do you want to have children so young?". The churches say: "follow these rituals" - common sense says: "they are empty and meaningless". Etc.

The doctrine that was forged many centuries ago is now but an empty word. People don't deny totally the idea of God nor reject probably their cultural tradition, when a funeral or marriage has to be done "to the taste of all" in the family - but they don't think that these practices are valid anymore but empty residues from a time that's far gone.

(In other words: Capital decodifies all).

NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2006 at 00:16

Concerning the Greek stance on the Kosovo conflict, here is an interesting article:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,3866657,00. html

Quote

The majority of Greece's 9 million citizens are angry. Their anger is reflected in the country's nightly talk shows and the earnest snatches of conversation overheard on the streets of Athens. They are aghast at the war in Kosovo, at the wasteful loss of life in Yugoslavia, at the murderous actions of Nato.

Their horror springs not simply from the fact that the conflict is occurring on their doorstep, against a fellow Orthodox people, but because they have been misinformed. Their indignation is justified, for there has been little mention of the term "ethnic cleansing". Without a motive for the bombings, the consensus is that the United States is trying to rearrange the region's borders, enforcing and abusing its role as the world's policeman.

Given this hostile attitude towards Kosovo, I am really at a loss how the Greek government will justify a revision of its foreign policy in the eyes of its public opinion.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote St. Francis of Assisi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2006 at 00:32
Neo,

I mean that the Albanian elections are notorious for being rigged.

As for my nationality, I'm not really from the Vatican. I am from Rome, though, and decided, heck, why not say I was from the Vatican? There are a lot of Albanian immigrants here in Rome, and many of them are my friends. That is how I know so much about the situation in the Balkans.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2006 at 00:36
Originally posted by bg_turk bg_turk wrote:

Concerning the Greek stance on the Kosovo conflict, here is an interesting article:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,3866657,00. html

Quote

The majority of Greece's 9 million citizens are angry. Their anger is reflected in the country's nightly talk shows and the earnest snatches of conversation overheard on the streets of Athens. They are aghast at the war in Kosovo, at the wasteful loss of life in Yugoslavia, at the murderous actions of Nato.

Their horror springs not simply from the fact that the conflict is occurring on their doorstep, against a fellow Orthodox people, but because they have been misinformed. Their indignation is justified, for there has been little mention of the term "ethnic cleansing". Without a motive for the bombings, the consensus is that the United States is trying to rearrange the region's borders, enforcing and abusing its role as the world's policeman.

Given this hostile attitude towards Kosovo, I am really at a loss how the Greek government will justify a revision of its foreign policy in the eyes of its public opinion.



No your at a loss in understanding that the greek governement can have a foreign policy that you cannot always fault. Most greeks dont want turkey in the EU, does that stop the governmet in backing turkeys bid?

your pulling at straws and it really looks pathetic

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Neoptolemos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2006 at 01:02
Originally posted by bg_turk bg_turk wrote:

Concerning the Greek stance on the Kosovo conflict, here is an interesting article:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,3866657,00. html

Quote

The majority of Greece's 9 million citizens are angry. Their anger is reflected in the country's nightly talk shows and the earnest snatches of conversation overheard on the streets of Athens. They are aghast at the war in Kosovo, at the wasteful loss of life in Yugoslavia, at the murderous actions of Nato.

Their horror springs not simply from the fact that the conflict is occurring on their doorstep, against a fellow Orthodox people, but because they have been misinformed. Their indignation is justified, for there has been little mention of the term "ethnic cleansing". Without a motive for the bombings, the consensus is that the United States is trying to rearrange the region's borders, enforcing and abusing its role as the world's policeman.

Given this hostile attitude towards Kosovo, I am really at a loss how the Greek government will justify a revision of its foreign policy in the eyes of its public opinion.


This article is 7 years old and outdated. Let me give you an update.
Greece will play neutral in the Kosovo issue. Why?
1. Kosovo will become independent and Greece cannot change that. It is just a matter of time.
2. Greece wants to have good relations with its neighbours.
3. Greek people are not going to go crazy about that. If you think that Greeks are Christian fanatics that hate muslims you are wrong. You cannot compare the situation 7 years ago with today. 7 years ago there was UCK fighting the Serbs and NATO bombing Serbia and killing innocent people. Far from todays reality.

bg_turk believe me, you don't know much about Greek policy and public opinion. Not that I'm surprised about that...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Neoptolemos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2006 at 01:06
Originally posted by St. Francis of Assisi St. Francis of Assisi wrote:

Neo,

I mean that the Albanian elections are notorious for being rigged.

As for my nationality, I'm not really from the Vatican. I am from Rome, though, and decided, heck, why not say I was from the Vatican? There are a lot of Albanian immigrants here in Rome, and many of them are my friends. That is how I know so much about the situation in the Balkans.

There are more Albanian immigrands in Greece; and I am from the Balkans


EDIT: To be more precise, I am from Epirus


Edited by Neoptolemos
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Hidden Face Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2006 at 01:38
Originally posted by Mortaza Mortaza wrote:



I complately agree with you, I am talking about near future. Turkey wont let greece to annex any land because of Turkey-greece conflict.


In the west thrace issue, it was Turkey who supported Greece instead of Bulgaria, Mortaza. And, I think, you are confused about Turkey's politics on balkan issues, Turkey's political tool in Balkan was/is/will be Macedonia, not albania, Felix is right, albania is a neutral state, even pro-greek, what's turco-greek conflict? It's Macedonia, Mortaza, Macedonia.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2006 at 02:07

Originally posted by Neoptolemos Neoptolemos wrote:

This article is 7 years old and outdated. Let me give you an update.
Greece will play neutral in the Kosovo issue. Why?
1. Kosovo will become independent and Greece cannot change that. It is just a matter of time.
2. Greece wants to have good relations with its neighbours.
3. Greek people are not going to go crazy about that. If you think that Greeks are Christian fanatics that hate muslims you are wrong. You cannot compare the situation 7 years ago with today. 7 years ago there was UCK fighting the Serbs and NATO bombing Serbia and killing innocent people. Far from todays reality.

I hope you are right.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2006 at 06:08

Greeks don't really care about the situation in Kossovo. Most Greeks don't even know that Greece is playing a role in the Kossovo conflict.

Quote It's Macedonia, Mortaza, Macedonia

I don't think that Turkey has any word over Northern Greece.

There's no country named 'Macedonia', but I assume you mean Skopje (let's call it FYROM).

I don't think that Turkey has any special relationships with FYROM, apart from the fact that she recognized it as 'Macedonia', something that other countries have done as well

Moreover, Greece has built good relations with Fyrom, in economical level, but also in military level (I think Greece gave Fyrom some Leonidas armoured  vehicles)

On the other hand Greek-Albanian are still tense, due to the Tsamuria subject (ther's nothing really to discuss about it), and also due to the recent Albanian claim that she can't guarantee the integrity of her borders in case Kossovo becomes independent.

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