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Forum LockedMuhammed Ali Pasha

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Post Options Post Options   Quote andrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Muhammed Ali Pasha
    Posted: 29-Jun-2007 at 12:11
I have recently taken interest in the history of modern Egypt. Muhammad Ali was of Albanian descent, but considered Egypt as one of the more prized and more free vassals of the Ottoman Empire so he took control. As he took over he modernized agriculture and technology as long as modernize the army along western lines. The Frenchman who did much of the work already lived and was born in Egypt at the time.WinkAnyways, he served a huge role in helping the Ottomans momentarily retake Greece after the Greeks had inflicted upon the Ottomans critical defeat. The Battle of Navarino is also a battle that is remembered as the joint Egyptian and Ottoman fleet were destroyed by a European coalition to end Ottoman dominance in Greece.

There was still a stipulation if Muhammad Ali helped the sultan, he would then receive Syria. When the sultan refused Muhammad Ali took his modernized army and defeated the Turks in two decisive battles leaving Istanbul virtually unguarded. Fortunately for the Turks they were save by none other than their traditional enemy, the Russians. A European delegation met with the sultan and pasha. Muhammad Ali was not to attack and take Istanbul and return the sultan was to grant Egypt's independence and control over Syria.

Still today he is considered a hero in Egypt. He made other nations recognize Egypt as a power once more. Although his successors debts crippled the nation and led to internal strifes leading to the colonization by Britain in the late 1800's, he was able to make Egypt an independent and considerable power.

Is anyone else interested in this man?Smile


Edited by andrew - 29-Jun-2007 at 12:14
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Joe Boxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2007 at 17:56

I am. Ive gotten two books ordered about this man. He did bring Egypt out of growing poverty into the forefront of world technology. Unfortunately it was already too late and within decades the British Empire was to grab them by the neck.

Mughal-e-Azam
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Post Options Post Options   Quote andrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2007 at 19:32
Yeah, well internal strife does that to any nation. With Egypt undergoing a Civil War and Britain wanting to keep the French from interfering with their colony in India it was bound to happen. He did teach the Ottomans a lesson at the Battle of Konya and for a brief period made Egypt a power once more.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jagatai Khan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2007 at 13:52
Egyptian army reached Kutahya, they could march on Istanbul easily.

I have two questions:
What was their relation to Ottoman sultan after Hunkar Iskelesi treaty ?Do they see themselves as  independent?

What is his and his successsors' contributions to Sudan?What did they do there?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote andrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2007 at 15:04
"Egyptian army reached Kutahya, they could march on Istanbul easily."

After the Battle of Konya the Ottoman Empire was left defenseless.

"I have two questions:
What was their relation to Ottoman sultan after Hunkar Iskelesi treaty ?Do they see themselves as  independent?"

Egypt would be independent and take control of Syria.

"What is his and his successsors' contributions to Sudan?What did they do there?"

They used it for resources namely gold and other valuables. They ruled it jointly with the English.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2007 at 08:12
This guy had the opportunity the end the Ottoman Empire in one swift campaign. Putting aside the fact that he didn't do that, he exposed how dangerously backward the Ottoman Empire was, and this vitally shifted Europeon politics in the 19th century. Very significant historical figure. I just don't understand how he managed to modernize Egypt so quickly, then go on to humiliate the Ottomans so efficiently.
 
Just so you know, Andrew, when Turkish nationalists starting negotiating with the British again in 1923, one of the stipulations stated that Turkish territorial claim to Egypt was to be renounced, suggesting that the Turks had  suzerainity over Egypt, even if it was only nominal.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote andrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2007 at 09:02
I suppose this was to ensure that any control the Ottomans had with Egypt was to be relinquished. I believe that is the same time Egypt declared its independence from Britain. Although the Ottomans didn't have full control, I believe they thought they had some. Remember the Ottoman Empire wasn't really ever pacified like most European powers, it always faced dangerous vassals especially Egypt and the Balkan states.
 
The thing I find interesting is that Muhammed modernized his army along French lines. Had any European nation had that kind of strengy they could even conquer the Ottomans, if the Egyptian could do it why not a European power? Clearly in the Crimean War Russia could've if it had not been for the Europeans. They kept the Ottomans around as a buffer state to make sure the region is stable and that no one grows to strong. Remember the Ottomans controlled the Middle East, the most strategic place in the world.
 
At any time, any power could march on Constantinople. However if any power did this, the other four would jump on them.Tongue


Edited by andrew - 20-Jul-2007 at 09:08
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Post Options Post Options   Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2007 at 16:47
To modernise Egypt quickly he had to 'take care' of people who were against it.

Mostly they were tribal wariors = elites.

and that is what he did.

He slaughter the mamelukes.


bloody but strategic move
I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
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Post Options Post Options   Quote The_Jackal_God Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jul-2007 at 18:16
it's hard to remember all these leaders and generals w/ pasha in their name. someone should make a list !
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2007 at 03:25
Originally posted by andrew

At any time, any power could march on Constantinople. However if any power did this, the other four would jump on them.Tongue
 
An interesting diplomatic situation, isn't it? Although i doubt Austria and Prussia could have made an advance on the city, lacking naval capacity, which i believe is fundamental in a successful seige of such a city. The capture of the city in 1204, 1453, and the Gallipolli campaign proves as such. Even Britain and France combined couldn't capture the city.
 
I always wonder though, had Muhammed Ali Pasha attempted to capture the city in the 1830's, or had the Russians tried it in the war of 1876, would they have been successful? Both times the Ottomans diverted an attack through use of diplomatic cunning.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote andrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2007 at 10:47

Europe was not goint to let anyone capture the Ottos. The Russians wanted to capture the Black Sea and secure the Crimea however to re-establish Constantinople was definitely in their sites. France and Britain were afraid the big bad bear, the Russians, would bulldoze into mainland Turkey whick they probably could have done. They didn't use iron clads so the navy was good and was downright humiliated by the European powers and in particular Russia. Had not the Europeans powers intervened Russia could capture Constantinople seeing as how the Ottos wanted to divert large armies before the capital but could be left vulnerable.

The capture of the city in 1204, 1453, and the Gallipolli campaign proves as such. Even Britain and France combined couldn't capture the city.
 
They did however receive German aid. The best idea is that the Allies blundered more then anything. They landed in the wrong place, it was a cliff which is pretty much impossible to land on. Also the idea of taking them out early by taking the capital was a bad idea to begin with. They underestimated the Turks and paid dearly for that mistake, similarly to how the French underestimated the Vietnamese.
 
I always wonder though, had Muhammed Ali Pasha attempted to capture the city in the 1830's, or had the Russians tried it in the war of 1876, would they have been successful? Both times the Ottomans diverted an attack through use of diplomatic cunning.
 
Indeed. The city was left defenseless when Muhammed Ali subdued all the Turkish forces after the Battle of Konya they used help from the Russians. However when they were forced to recognize Egyptian independence and suceed land it was the beginning of the end for the empire, later the Austrian and Russian Empires would begin to nibble away at the empire after that war.
 
I'm not entirely sure what happened with the Crimean War. I don't think the Turks wanted help but I imagine them not being entirely objecting to it.
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2007 at 15:41
when exactly was the Egyptian Army modernized (westernized) and from which country where its instructors & advisors?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote andrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2007 at 17:07
when exactly was the Egyptian Army modernized (westernized) and from which country where its instructors & advisors?
 
Around 1810-1820. They modernized its army and ways of agriculture and industry along French lines. Muhammad Ali modernized the navy entirely by himself.
 
If you ever visit the Marriot in Egypt you'd find Egyptian and French artistry. I remember reading about a Frenchman born in Egypt who taught the Egyptian army discipline but if someone can get his name I'd much apreciate it.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Aug-2007 at 04:51
Why were the Egyptians so successful and quick in modernizing, when the Ottomans, in contrast, tried to modernise for 80 or so years yet never managed it?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote andrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Aug-2007 at 08:33
Why were the Egyptians so successful and quick in modernizing, when the Ottomans, in contrast, tried to modernise for 80 or so years yet never managed it?
 
I think leadership had a lot to do with it. Egypt's leaders were brilliant starting with Muhammad Ali Pasha going to Ismail who did a lot for Egypt. Also Muhammad Ali put an end to all opposition groups i.e. Albanians and Mamelukes whome he systematically eliminated whereas the constant pressure facing the Ottoman sultan from Conservatives and the janissary corps was to great. Egypt also had the resources to mass modernize also. With war looming in Europe at this time and Egypt starting to industrialize and mass produce cotton this helped their economy greatly. Lastly they wanted to become a world power once more and unlike the Ottomans, would do anything to achieve that goal.
 
Also the Ottomans did modernize but along Prussian/German line. Van Moltke (sp?) headed the reforms and served in their armies. Still at that time in the early 1800s French methods of warfare was ahead of Prussian ways. At the Battle of Nizib a Prussian coalition helped the Ottoman army but at that time the Egyptian army was better then the Prussian coalition.
 
Sorry for my choppy writing, English isn't my first language.Smile


Edited by andrew - 05-Aug-2007 at 16:34
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Sep-2007 at 08:06
Interesting, i found a quote about Muhammed Ali from the Life of Henry John Temple. It was made by an Englishmen to the British minister at Naples in 1833.
 
"Mehemed-Ali's real design is to establish an Arabian kingdom including all the countries in which Arabic is the language ... as it would imply the dismemberment of Turkey, we could not agree to it. Besides Turkey is as good an occupier of the road to India as an active Arabian sovereign would be."
 
So it was the British who foiled Muhammed Ali's plans. It's funny how their diplomacy changed by the end of the century.
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