History Community ~ All Empires Homepage


This is the Archive on WORLD Historia, the old original forum.

 You cannot post here - you can only read.

 

Here is the link to the new forum:

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Forum LockedMughal - Chaghtai (Clan)

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>
Author
yas245 View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 15-Dec-2008
Status: Offline
Points: 19
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yas245 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Mughal - Chaghtai (Clan)
    Posted: 15-Dec-2008 at 17:17
Hi, I'm looking for information on the Mughal Clan ; Chaghatai. Who are they and What are Physical characteristics??
Back to Top
es_bih View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Beglerbeg

Joined: 20-Dec-2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3426
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2008 at 18:20
Moved to Questions and Answers.

Back to Top
Omar al Hashim View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 05-Jan-2006
Location: Snowy-Highlands
Status: Offline
Points: 5725
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2008 at 03:26
The Chaghtai mongols were the splinter of the Mongol empire that ruled in central asia.
"O Byzantines! If success is your desire and if you seek right guidance and want your empire to remain then give the pledge to this Prophet"
~ Heraclius, Roman Emperor
Back to Top
Knights View Drop Down
Webmaster
Webmaster
Avatar
AE Magazine Coordinator

Joined: 23-Oct-2006
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 3294
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Knights Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2008 at 03:51
Omar pretty much summed it up.

Genghis' second son Chaghatay was dealt one of the four successor uluses - the Ulus Chagatay. This khanate covered central asia, including parts of modern-day Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan and Kyrgzystan. So who were the Chagadayids?

There were no one people living under the Chagatay khanate - it was a mix. Turco-Islamic featured prominently, and a shift in Turco-Mongol groups occurred over time. Numerous tribes existed under the Chagatayid khan, such as the Barlas (in Transoxiana, where Tamerlane hailed from), Qipchaqs and Apardi. I would imagine their physical characteristics featured a blend of each of these tribes. I know nearly nothing about the ethnic history of central asia - maybe Seko or Sarmat could help out.

Regards,

- Knights -

Back to Top
yas245 View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 15-Dec-2008
Status: Offline
Points: 19
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yas245 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2008 at 20:34
Thanks for the info, but please do write more if you know anything else

Apparently  ...
"Chaghadai is a version of "Chagan" (white) formed using the –dai suffix as described in "On the Documentation and Construction of Period Mongolian Names" by Baras-aghur Naran. This article defines Chaghadai as "he who is white."

Can anyone confirm this? As this could be a possible physical characteristic.

So, is Chaghtai a Tribe or a Clan?

Furthermore, my heritage is from the Mughal Chaghtai Clan/Tribe, but in addition to this, I was told I was a Mughal Chaghtai Pathan. Now this confuses me, Mughals can't be Pathan can they? Surprisingly I did a little research and i found a Wikipedia link (not the best of places) that categorised - a Pathan Mughal as a clan from the Mughal Tribe. There's no info on the actual Clan but its listed there. Or could it be, as my family come from Pakistan,  some characteristics such as light skin, coloured eyes, robust body, which is usually associated with Pathan's, may have been the reason for why we might of been labelled as Pathan.

Can someone please enlighten me on this ...

Check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mughal_(tribe)


Edited by yas245 - 16-Dec-2008 at 20:39
Back to Top
malizai_ View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar
Alcinous

Joined: 05-Feb-2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2256
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2008 at 00:23
One thing for sure, you can only be a pathan 'or' a Mughal, since you can't have two fathers.
"We didnt land on Israel, Israel landed on us!!"--Palestinian X
antiwar.com
crimesofwar.org
Back to Top
Conservative View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 02-Aug-2007
Location: Iran Inshalla
Status: Offline
Points: 110
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Conservative Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2008 at 15:29
Original Chaghatai are descended from the line of Genghis Khan. So if you are what you claim to be then your paternal line should be Mongol.
 
As for the Mughals, foreign Muslims in India that came from the Middle East and Central Asia to serve the Mughal empire were all dubbed generically as "Mughals" by the Indians. This was done regardless of where they actually came from or whether they served in military, government or commercial posts. They formed the ruling and upper class in the Mughal empire but their numbers were always very small and diminished substantially during Aurangzeb's reign. After Augrangzeb their arrival and service stopped altogether.
 
I think it is extremely unlikely that people from the subcontinent that claim to be "Mughal" are descended from the Chaghatai or any other non-Indian faction that served them. These names and titles are more likely to have been assumed by Indian converts to Islam to try and disassociate themselves from the majority Hendus and to gain favour with their rulers. But you can always try to find out your roots by testing your Y-DNA. You can do this with companies like Family Tree DNA, Genebase etc
 
As for physical characteristics, by looking at Persian miniatures and their Mughal miniature off-shoots i think it is obvious that the Chaghatai were oriental looking, like all other Turko-Mongols. They probably would have looked little different from the Uzbeks that now inhabit much of what was once their 'turf'.
ایران‌ زمین
Back to Top
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Status: Offline
Points: 3963
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2008 at 19:53
There is a region in the northeast of Iran with the name of Joghatay: http://itouchmap.com/?c=ir&UF=-3842839&UN=-5081704&DG=ADMD people of this region have Mongoloid features.
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3115
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2008 at 23:09
Moved to Ethnic history of Central Asia.
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
yas245 View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 15-Dec-2008
Status: Offline
Points: 19
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yas245 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Dec-2008 at 14:03
I'm in search of my identity, but i'm getting really confused about it. I can't get much information from my family, because unfortunatly they themself don't know much and they are unlikely to know because of certain family circumstances. So as far as i have been told about my identity is that were ' Mughal Chaghtai Pathan ' .. Even my understanding was you couldn't be the two together and like someone said in the earlier post that you cant be the two, However, nor did my ancestor's have Chaghtai as a title or as part of their name, One thing is for certain they did have 'Khan' as a surname though , not like that is much help as nearly everyone is called 'Khan', irrespective of what background they have.
Also, how exactly do define someone to be a 'Mughal' or someone to be a 'Pathan' ... Could you be classified as a Pathan if you were residing in the Pashtoon areas ???

Again i appreciate everyone that is giving information on this ...
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3115
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Dec-2008 at 17:44
I guess there could be 2 possibilities of origins of your family.
 
1. They could be descendants of Pathans who served in Babur Army thus they were Pathans related to Moghul Chagatais.
2. They could be descendants of some Turks who settled among the Pathans and got assimilated.
 
 
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
yas245 View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 15-Dec-2008
Status: Offline
Points: 19
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yas245 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Dec-2008 at 22:35
Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

I guess there could be 2 possibilities of origins of your family.
 
1. They could be descendants of Pathans who served in Babur Army thus they were Pathans related to Moghul Chagatais.
2. They could be descendants of some Turks who settled among the Pathans and got assimilated.
 


I guess i can't really be certain about my identity ..... But these two possibilities are probably close enough .. thanks dude

Also i'd just like to ask.. do these possibilities have any base, in terms of historical evidence?

Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3115
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Dec-2008 at 18:57
Dear yas245,
 
Peraps this information could be of interest for you.
 
Regarding the two possibilities.
 
These are just historical facts that a lot of Babur Turks (Chagatai Turks if you will) settled in Afghanistan as well as that the large part of his army consisted of Pathans.
 
The primary source? - Babur-nama.
 
Babur himself is buried in Afghanistan BTW.
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
yas245 View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 15-Dec-2008
Status: Offline
Points: 19
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yas245 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Dec-2008 at 08:56
Thanks for that Sarmat, I had previosly looked at that link, and intrestingly enough i realised that those people who have 'Mirza' as a Prefix, or 'Beg' as a Suffix are presumably from Chaghtai decent. As far as i know, no one in my paternal line had kept either of the two. A choice i'm probably considering is testing my Y-DNA, as Conservative mentioned. Though the cost is a bit exspensive.

Also is Chaghtai is clan or a tribe? and how do u differ between the two ?


Edited by yas245 - 24-Dec-2008 at 09:00
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3115
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Dec-2008 at 16:46
Well, usually "a clan" is a smaller unit within "a tribe" so, one tribe can have many tribes within in.
 
The link says that Chaghtais often have 'Mirza' and 'Beg' prefix, but often doesn't mean always. So, the absence of those from you relatives family names doesn't mean that they aren't related to Chaghtais.
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
Cheeta View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 17-Jan-2009
Location: Pakistan
Status: Offline
Points: 29
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cheeta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2009 at 14:46
Originally posted by Knights Knights wrote:

Omar pretty much summed it up.

Genghis' second son Chaghatay was dealt one of the four successor uluses - the Ulus Chagatay. This khanate covered central asia, including parts of modern-day Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan and Kyrgzystan. So who were the Chagadayids?
- Knights -
Chaghtai is the name of a man and not a section of a clan. There may be people who name themselves as being the descendants of Chughtai as their second part of name. There is no specification of any character relating the term Chughtai but considered to be of the family of Chughtai with the same features as Mongols. It is generally used as for Mongoloid. The names like Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan and others are all the split areas of the land of Jihun and Sihun(Amu and Syr) rivers which is as a whole Turkistan only. The communist regime of Russia divided the land into provinces for their convenience of administration.
Back to Top
mughal-steel View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 09-Feb-2009
Location: Lahore
Status: Offline
Points: 6
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mughal-steel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2009 at 08:58
I am from the Chaghtai clan hailing from Jhelum,Punjab.According to our history my people came with Babur.His family is aslo confusedly called as Chaghtai by some historians though he was from Barlas tribe,a Turkicized but orignally a Mongol people.Baburs ancestor Temur claimed same ancestory as Changez Khan.Both conquerors believed to be descendants of same ancestor.Chaghtai,wild horse,was the second son of Changez Khan and ruled Central Asia and some parts of Afghanistan.There are many Chaghtai clans in sub-continent,not all being orignal.
brj
Back to Top
Cheeta View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 17-Jan-2009
Location: Pakistan
Status: Offline
Points: 29
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cheeta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Feb-2009 at 19:55
My Dear Mughal-Steel have two books from Urdu Bazar Lahore, Tuzk-e Taimuri and Tuzk-e Babri, the memoirs of both Taimur and Babar; only then you will be aware of their families. Then make known your own clan to us.
Back to Top
yas245 View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 15-Dec-2008
Status: Offline
Points: 19
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yas245 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Feb-2009 at 14:02
Since the only information i have is that my grandfather was from Jullandar, and with no real information of whether he was a migrant from the Afghan lands, even though it would explain the possible Pashtun inheritance or maybe even the Mughal inheritance, does that conclude that he was a Punjabi ?? 

btw is being a Pashtun not just a linguistic feature , as Punjabi is, or are they attached with culture, geography, history ?
Back to Top
hmmm View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary


Joined: 10-Dec-2008
Location: online-offline
Status: Offline
Points: 19
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hmmm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Feb-2009 at 19:02
Originally posted by yas245 yas245 wrote:

Since the only information i have is that my grandfather was from Jullandar, and with no real information of whether he was a migrant from the Afghan lands, even though it would explain the possible Pashtun inheritance or maybe even the Mughal inheritance, does that conclude that he was a Punjabi ?? 

btw is being a Pashtun not just a linguistic feature , as Punjabi is, or are they attached with culture, geography, history ?
 
yas245 you have asked good question?  I think it is more than just a linguistic feature.  I will give you some examples:  In Indian cricket team there is brother duo who are talented players namely, Irfan Pathan and Yousuf Pathan.  They call themselves Pathans as is eviden but have been removed from their original homelands for some time.  Purists might not consider them as one but then it is just ones nazariya to decide......


Edited by hmmm - 13-Feb-2009 at 03:05
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.047 seconds.