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    Posted: 31-May-2009 at 12:46
Originally posted by drgonzaga

Carcharedon, as I have incessantly iterated, your contentions lack historical substance in terms of the colonial history of Spanish America. Your intent to blacken the canvas of history through glittering generalities and colored adjectives lead to little more than displays of ignorance. 
 
Still many Native American peoples and cultures are just gone, eradicated from the face of the Earth.
 
But maybe they were never opressed by anyone, maybe they never were exterminated or maybe noone fought any wars against them? Maybe they just collectively committed suicide?
And maybe most Native people just imagine the discrimination they are subjected to today?
 
It´s always seems that some people have some strange need to deny or diminish genocide, stealing of land and opression.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2009 at 14:26
Originally posted by Carcharodon

... 
Still many Native American peoples and cultures are just gone, eradicated from the face of the Earth.
 
But maybe they were never opressed by anyone, maybe they never were exterminated or maybe noone fought any wars against them? Maybe they just collectively committed suicide?
 
A though here. The exterminations of people -like you say- are very few, and we must be careful to generalize. Yes, it is true there were many crimes, that many people by contagious diseases, and that there were all sort of abuses against Amerindians.
What is not true, though, is the number of "exterminated societies" you mention above.
 
The Americas wasn't Nazi Germany.
 
The destruction of culture you mention there has happened by three factors mainly: intermarriage, natives people abandoning culture to addapt to western, corrosive influence of the western society. More often than not it is the natives who have abandoned theirs language and culture to addapt to the mainstream, the same way a Cambodian immigrant has to learn english to addapt to the United States.
 
Your vision is a bit romantic.
 
Originally posted by Carcharodon

... 
And maybe most Native people just imagine the discrimination they are subjected to today?
 
It´s always seems that some people have some strange need to deny or diminish genocide, stealing of land and opression.
 
 
That's true. I also sense that North Americans deny something obvious. In Canada and the U.S. Native Americans are considered the bottom of society.
 
 
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2009 at 15:06
Originally posted by pinguin

 
A though here. The exterminations of people -like you say- are very few, and we must be careful to generalize. Yes, it is true there were many crimes, that many people by contagious diseases, and that there were all sort of abuses against Amerindians.
What is not true, though, is the number of "exterminated societies" you mention above.
 
The number of exterminated societies and the number of vanished people are surely hard to count. They also varies in time and space. And many times it´s also hard to discern and separate the different causes of population decrease, war, diseases, slavery, displacement, migrations, admixture with other ethnic groups and so on.
There are also specific moments in history where slavery, extermination and similar increases, as for example the rubber boom in Amazonas. From that specific moment we actually have some numbers how this historical event decreased the native population in affected areas (one can notice that similar events were going on in Kongo at roughly the same time. Those events had a dramatic impact on demographic numbers also there).
 
I think there are still a lot of work to do for historians, anthropologists, archaeologists and others to produce more exact numbers of the decrease in indigenous population and it´s causes. It would also be interesting to see a list of peoples that have ceased to exist, at least as more or less independent cultures. 
 
Originally posted by pinguin

 
The destruction of culture you mention there has happened by three factors mainly: intermarriage, natives people abandoning culture to addapt to western, corrosive influence of the western society. More often than not it is the natives who have abandoned theirs language and culture to addapt to the mainstream, the same way a Cambodian immigrant has to learn english to addapt to the United States. 
 
Because many of the indigenous peoples lost their land, it has been harder for them to survive as more or less independent units. Some of them has become like immigrants in their own land. Many times the intergration in mainstream society probably would have looked different if they had more of their native land left so that they could be more economically independent of others.
 
Originally posted by pinguin

  Your vision is a bit romantic. 
 
Many people who adress topics like these are considered romantics.
 
 
 


Edited by Carcharodon - 31-May-2009 at 15:07
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2009 at 15:16
Originally posted by drgonzaga

As for the "movies", a theme we have long strayed from, they can be just as vicious in their caricature of the new cultures that formed in the Spanish Americas...
 
To return to the movies: Yes, too many movies (especially US made) caricatures different peoples in sometimes rather vicious ways. As for example we can see rough caricatures of Arabs, Africans, Latin Americans, East Asians and so on. Such caricatures risks to increase prejudice and discrimination especially because of the great impact US movies have, also in other parts of the world (for example here in Northern Europe, they just show to much US movies both in TV and on theatres).
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Post Options Post Options   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2009 at 20:12
Originally posted by Carcharodon

Originally posted by drgonzaga

Carcharedon, as I have incessantly iterated, your contentions lack historical substance in terms of the colonial history of Spanish America. Your intent to blacken the canvas of history through glittering generalities and colored adjectives lead to little more than displays of ignorance. 
 
Still many Native American peoples and cultures are just gone, eradicated from the face of the Earth.
 
But maybe they were never opressed by anyone, maybe they never were exterminated or maybe noone fought any wars against them? Maybe they just collectively committed suicide?
And maybe most Native people just imagine the discrimination they are subjected to today?
 
It´s always seems that some people have some strange need to deny or diminish genocide, stealing of land and opression.
 
 
There you go again employing improper terminology and applying moral judgments that had no meaning within an Amerindian context in many instances. You are drowning, Carcharedon, in an ocean of tempestuous vocabulary. An Amerind trait that baffled most Europeans upon contact was the near absence of the concept of "land ownership" and "personal property". The Portuguese on the Brazilian litoral were totally dumbfounded and even reached an erroneous conclusion: the Tupinamba were thieves since they picked up anything just lying around and took it for their own use! Even today the encounter of customary with titled lands generates conflict:
 
 
As I've iterated before, you can not take 19th century historical phenomena and thrust it deep into the colonial past. Conflict did take place between Amerind and European, but in terms of imperial laws and policies intent was the protection of the Amerind from colonial cupidity. Here is an excellent contemporary source:
 
 
Interestingly, the modern Mexican state of Tlaxcala reflects the actual territorial boundaries of the Nahua Tlaxcalans and therein lies the actual nature of Hispono-Amerindian relationships in the 16th century repeated elsewhere throughout the continent. You'll not find a Wannsee Conference in the history of the Americas.
 
As for the "gone", you'll discover damned few within a Spanish context...
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2009 at 20:30
Originally posted by Carcharodon

Originally posted by drgonzaga

As for the "movies", a theme we have long strayed from, they can be just as vicious in their caricature of the new cultures that formed in the Spanish Americas...
 
To return to the movies: Yes, too many movies (especially US made) caricatures different peoples in sometimes rather vicious ways. As for example we can see rough caricatures of Arabs, Africans, Latin Americans, East Asians and so on. Such caricatures risks to increase prejudice and discrimination especially because of the great impact US movies have, also in other parts of the world (for example here in Northern Europe, they just show to much US movies both in TV and on theatres).
 
Movies are movies, that is, works of fiction and European film makers are no less guilty of sensationalism and prejudice than their LaLaLand counterparts. After all, you even mentioned one of these canned products: Aguirre, The Wrath of God! Better to worry over the dangers posed by the Internet in the distribution of the violent and salacious, not to mention the entirely superficial whose objectives border on the truly dehumanizing. There are people in the world who are concerned over the human condition but they are not out to exploit the contradictions for their own comfort or political objectives. In terms of film one might say that those of the 1950s were truly "revolutionary" just by setting a refrigerator onto the montage or having a "bathroom" scene; however, these neutral objects can not be taken as false political statements, which often serve as plot engines for much of contemporary film productions.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2009 at 20:33
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga

There you go again employing improper terminology and applying moral judgments that had no meaning within an Amerindian context in many instances. You are drowning, Carcharedon, in an ocean of tempestuous vocabulary. An Amerind trait that baffled most Europeans upon contact was the near absence of the concept of "land ownership" and "personal property". 
 

Yes, the Amerindians had other concepts of owning and using land, but still the land they by tradition occupied and made their living from was invaded and occupied (if you don´t like the word stolen).

 
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga

 Interestingly, the modern Mexican state of Tlaxcala reflects the actual territorial boundaries of the Nahua Tlaxcalans and therein lies the actual nature of Hispono-Amerindian relationships in the 16th century repeated elsewhere throughout the continent. You'll not find a Wannsee Conference in the history of the Americas.
 
As I have also iterated the amount of land theft, war, extermination and discrimination has varied geographically and over time.
 
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga

As for the "gone", you'll discover damned few within a Spanish context...
 

Some peoples disappeared early and some other peoples have disappeared later, it has been an ongoing process.

 

 
 
 


Edited by Carcharodon - 31-May-2009 at 20:43
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2009 at 20:40
Originally posted by drgonzaga

Movies are movies, that is, works of fiction and European film makers are no less guilty of sensationalism and prejudice than their LaLaLand counterparts. After all, you even mentioned one of these canned products: Aguirre, The Wrath of God
 
Yes, there can be discrimination, prejudice and ethnic caricatures in European movies too, noone denies that. But for the moment it seems that the US made movies have a greater impact in some parts of the world (including countries in Europe).
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga

Better to worry over the dangers posed by the Internet in the distribution of the violent and salacious, not to mention the entirely superficial whose objectives border on the truly dehumanizing.
 
One can actually worry about more than one thing at the same time.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2009 at 05:36
Originally posted by Carcharodon

... 
Originally posted by pinguin

  Your vision is a bit romantic. 
Many people who adress topics like these are considered romantics.
 
Pretty well. My only critic on you is that you lack perspective. The American indian issues accross the Americas are wider that, I believe, you think.
 
First, uncontacted Indians are a very few people. Perhaps one hundred at most. Of course they deserve to be protected and activists are welcome to help in this task. However, most natives have been contacted since long time ago, centuries and even since half a milenia ago.
 
Do you know how many natives live in the Americas? According to my research, there are about 70 million native americans in all the continents of the New World. That population alone is at probably three times the one that existed at contact. Even more, the native population is the fastest growing of all groups in the Americas, at least in Latin America. So, we aren't talking about extinction of people in here. We are talking about extinction of cultures.
 
To me, the main indigenous problems has to do (1) the preservation of the native american heritage in the form of language, culture, traditions and, why not?, pride as well. (2) With the education and development of native Americans. (3) With the recovery of theirs lands, the change of a limited self government, and the management of theirs laws in an integrated way with the rest of society.
 
But how to do it in harmony with the "mainstream"? I believe the best way is to teach the mainstream about theirs own Amerindian heritage. We know that the largest majorities of the Americas have at least a small Amerindian ascendency. Genetical studies have show that people from Alaska to the land of fire all some degree of Amerindian genetics on them. So, the Indian heritage is theirs as well. More teaching is required to awoke in them that conscience for the past.
 
Only with the help of the states, the mainstream people, and natives all working together we are going to preserve the heritage and give the Amerindian the place of priviledge in the history of the Americas that they deserve. Is a long way to go.
 
Besides, the states today have to be concern with the economical development of natives. Many states are working with them these days to develop ecotourism, handcrafts and modernize theirs life. That's something that must be done. Natives deserve to get out of poverty and live as well as the rest in this New World, that is theirs as well.
 
 
 
 
 
 
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2009 at 12:12
Originally posted by pinguin

  
First, uncontacted Indians are a very few people. Perhaps one hundred at most. Of course they deserve to be protected and activists are welcome to help in this task. However, most natives have been contacted since long time ago, centuries and even since half a milenia ago.
 
Im aware of that. Many of the examples that we discussed is not about uncontacted peoples. For example most of the people who will be affected by the dams in Xingu river are contacted since way back in time.
 
Originally posted by pinguin

  
To me, the main indigenous problems has to do (1) the preservation of the native american heritage in the form of language, culture, traditions and, why not?, pride as well. (2) With the education and development of native Americans. (3) With the recovery of theirs lands, the change of a limited self government, and the management of theirs laws in an integrated way with the rest of society.
 
But how to do it in harmony with the "mainstream"? I believe the best way is to teach the mainstream about theirs own Amerindian heritage. We know that the largest majorities of the Americas have at least a small Amerindian ascendency. Genetical studies have show that people from Alaska to the land of fire all some degree of Amerindian genetics on them. So, the Indian heritage is theirs as well. More teaching is required to awoke in them that conscience for the past.
 
Only with the help of the states, the mainstream people, and natives all working together we are going to preserve the heritage and give the Amerindian the place of priviledge in the history of the Americas that they deserve. Is a long way to go.
 
Besides, the states today have to be concern with the economical development of natives. Many states are working with them these days to develop ecotourism, handcrafts and modernize theirs life. That's something that must be done. Natives deserve to get out of poverty and live as well as the rest in this New World, that is theirs as well.
 
Agree with you in these matters. For example education is crucial for the indigenous peoples since it is essential for them if they shall be able to defend their economical, social and juridical rights and to be able to solve problems concerning powerty (and the social problems connected with powerty).
At the same time the content of the education is important (there have been too many examples through history where native peoples have been taught by outsiders to despise their own culture) and also that the native peoples themselves will be able to have control over the teaching situation.
 
Also the things you mention about ecotourism and similar it seems a productive way to go, but it requires that those who shall live from it have enough native land left to be able to start such enterprises.
 
About culture and pride: fortunate enough self awarness is increasing and many cultural projects of different kinds are being started in and between indigenous communities. Here are a couple of examples:
 
Native Networks (film, video and radio produced by indigenous peoples of the Americas and Hawaii)
 
Video in the Villages (indigenous peoples make their own films and are thus able to present themselves to the world, and air their own views and opinions)
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by Carcharodon - 01-Jun-2009 at 22:38
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Several years back there was a movie set in the WWII years focusing on a Women's Baseball League. There was also a "Negro League", and apparently, even a league where Indian teams could compete. This article, taken from Far Outliers (link below extract) gives snippets of insight into Indian life in Oklahoma in the 20s and 30s.


The Spring 2009 issue of NINE: A Journal of Baseball and Culture has an article by Royse Parr on Ben Harjo's All-Indian Baseball Club (Project MUSE subscriber link). Here are a few excerpts (footnotes omitted) from a fascinating glimpse at another era.

The story of Ben Harjo's All-Indian Baseball Club has never been told. A full-blood Creek, Harjo was born on October 8, 1898, in Indian Territory near the city of Holdenville, now within the state of Oklahoma. In his teenage years, Harjo attended Haskell Institute, an Indian boarding school in Lawrence, Kansas, where he was the captain and a pitcher on the school's Creek baseball team. Known as the "New Carlisle of the West," Haskell Institute was proud of its baseball stars that included major leaguers Ike Kahdot (Potawatomi), Lee Daney (Choctaw), and Ben Tincup (Cherokee). Jim Thorpe (Sac and Fox, Potawatomi), a major league baseball player from Oklahoma, first attended Haskell. He then became athletically famous as an All-American football player and a track and field gold medal Olympian at Carlisle Indian Industrial School in Pennsylvania. Prior to leaving for Carlisle, Thorpe's father said to him, "Son, you are an Indian. I want you to show other races what an Indian can do." In their warrior tradition, Indian athletes were inspired to beat the whites at their own games. From these beginnings emerged Ben Harjo's dream of forming a barnstorming All-Indian baseball team.

According to the 1930 United States census, Harjo had ten laborers of Negro or Indian extraction who lived on the farm with his wife Susey and their five children. He was scrambling to make a living as a farmer during the lean years of the Great Depression and the Oklahoma Dust Bowl. The local agent for the U.S. Indian Service regarded him as an exceptional young man whose farming methods were an example for other Indians.

Fortunately for Harjo and his baseball dreams, his full-blood Seminole Indian wife, Susey, was oil-rich from her land allotment in the Seminole oil fields. She had a trust fund controlled by the U.S. Indian Service that was in excess of three hundred thousand dollars. Susey was very generous with those less fortunate, especially for funeral bills, medical attention, and education, but she was only modestly educated. Susie paid for the building of a Presbyterian church, and she had a propensity for purchasing and discarding vehicles, which included a Ford sports coupe, two Dodge trucks, a Dodge sports coupe, a Pierce Arrow luxury sedan, and a Chevrolet team bus....

What is the historical significance of the Harjo club and its story? Earlier barnstorming Indian baseball teams were often subjected to racial taunts and harassment because of their skin color. No such incidents were reported in the press for the Harjos. Even when their teams were soundly defeated, local journalists were complimentary of the athletic talents of the barnstormers. The Harjo club's play on the field, especially when they won the prestigious Denver Post Little World Series in 1932, proved that they were skilled professional athletes. In the New England states in 1933, it was heartwarming to read that the good-natured Thorpe was surrounded by hundreds of admiring youngsters.

 

From:  http://faroutliers.blogspot.com/

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2009 at 01:55
The extreme cultural collision experienced by the native brought up in a rainforest who for the first time visits a modern big city is a reccurrent theme in the world of movies. We see it in some scenes in Boormans "The Emerald Forest" and the theme is made comedy in the French movie "Un indien dans la ville" (an Indian in the City) where a little boy who lived among Natives in South America goes to his father in Paris. As in many cases with successful films from outside the USA the film got an US epigone called "Jungle 2 Jungle" set in Manhattan.
 
The movies are parts of an old tradition emanating from Tarzan and other similar representations of people coming from the wilderness into the civilisation.
 
These films are also belonging to a a body of movies which portraits rural persons in general coming to the big city and the often comic situations that follows. One famous exampel of this is of course the Australian blockbuster "Crocodile Dundee."
 
 


Edited by Carcharodon - 16-Jun-2009 at 02:19
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