History Community ~ All Empires Homepage


This is the Archive on WORLD Historia, the old original forum.

 You cannot post here - you can only read.

 

Here is the link to the new forum:

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Forum LockedMovies about Native Americans

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 6>
Author
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Baron
Baron


Joined: 04-May-2007
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 479
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2009 at 18:59
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 
That's a good one. Was Gibson portraying them? As far as I know Cortes found some Spaniards among the Mayas, but by them they were totally assimilated to local society so, rather than the Spanish converting Mayans into European culture, Cortes saw Spaniars totally "mayaized" 
 
That some Europeans where being integrated and assimilated into Native American societies also occured in North America. One example is the colony of New Sweden where the Lutheran priests and also The Swedish governor Jonah Printz complained over Swedish and Swedish-Finnish farmers that married native women and moved in with them. Printz called it "flykten till de vilske" (escaping to the wild ones, or to the pagans).
Back to Top
es_bih View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Beglerbeg

Joined: 20-Dec-2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3426
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2009 at 19:28
Originally posted by Jams Jams wrote:

Seriously, I don't think Gibson really cared about the Maya, I think he was much more concerned with his thematic agendas. Going on about the inaccuracies doesn't really mean much, because deep down the movie is not about the Maya at all.
 
By the way, I agree that the first ten minutes of the movie was the best part of the whole movie, but it was just to show us the carefree noble savage ideal human in action, just to contrast with the cruel and corrupted civilised invaders. It was never meant to show us "life among the Mayas".
 
Conclusion - Gibson is a prick.

I was surprised the British didn't pop up and kill everyone out of nowhere. I guess I have to give him at least some credit for not doing that for the millionth time. 



Back to Top
Jams View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 06-Sep-2006
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 352
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2009 at 20:25
Es_bih you have a poin't - no British bad guys in this movie.
He should have ended the movie like the lord of the flies (actually he did a little bit) with a modern navy with helicopters throwing bombs and using gatling guns to destroy the Maya city, while playing loud music - preferably the "Ride of the Valkyries"c - and people screaming "hell yeah" when a pyramid explodes.


Edited by Jams - 24-May-2009 at 20:26
Infonor homepage: http://infonor.dk/ RAIPON homepage: http://www.raipon.org/
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
Editorial Staff
Editorial Staff
Avatar

Joined: 29-Sep-2006
Location: Chile
Status: Offline
Points: 7508
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2009 at 20:29

That's Apocalisis Now!

"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471)
Back to Top
lirelou View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai


Joined: 26-Mar-2009
Location: Tampa, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 137
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-May-2009 at 17:13
drgonzaga, I think you'll find that you are out of your element here. you sound like you've actually studied the subject in some depth, as opposed to obtaining your knowledge from popular novels, or movies. I loved the quote from Tracie whatever-her-name-was reference the Mayans in present day Guatemala (10 years ago) being "exterminated simply because they were Mayans". Not to understate the violence of that war, but who the hell does she suppose made up rank and file of the Guatemalan Army? Other Mayans. As for the boat, I took that to be a fair historical representation, and presumed it to be either Cortez searching for Gonzalo Guerrero and Jeronimo de Aguilar, or possibly a beaching party looking for a fresh water supply or other somesuch landing so common to voyages then. Apocalypto showed life in the Americas to be brutal, violent, and short, which from all availabe evidence, it was. And whatever the faults of the Roman Catholic church, even in the counter-reformation, it was definitely a step up from the "old tyme" religion of human sacrifice and self-mutilation.

I keep hearing in this forum about how the movies (and books) portrayed native Americans in a negative light, but I frankly can't think of any from at least 1939 on. John Wayne's "Stagecoach"? How about "Hondo", or "the Searchers". They all looked pretty fair to me, given the context and point of view.  I think many posters here are searching for Rousseau's (and Engel's) noble savage despite their avowed rejection of that ideal. 


Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì
Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Baron
Baron


Joined: 04-May-2007
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 479
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-May-2009 at 19:06

Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

I loved the quote from Tracie whatever-her-name-was reference the Mayans in present day Guatemala (10 years ago) being "exterminated simply because they were Mayans". Not to understate the violence of that war, but who the hell does she suppose made up rank and file of the Guatemalan Army? Other Mayans. 

 

 

Traci Ardren is her name and she has studied Mayan culture for a rather long time.

And that Mayans killed Mayans, well it´s not so unusual in colonial history that indigenous peoples were pitted against each other by the colonial rulers.

 

Even some Mayans themselves don´t seem to like how their ancestors are portraited in the Movie:

 

“Indigenous leaders in Guatemala have appealed to the government to censor a film they consider racist and offensive to Mayan descendents, their culture, and their history. The film is Apocalypto, directed by US actor and director Mel Gibson. Presidential commissioner against discrimination Ricardo Cajas told reporters on Jan. 8 of his intention to request that the Ministry of Culture condemn this film that "resumes racial and offensive persecution" against the country's Mayan majority.”

(GUATEMALAN ACTIVISTS AND INTERNATIONAL SCHOLARS FIND NEW MAYAN MOVIE RACIST, REVISIONIST, DANGEROUS TO INDIGENOUS.

Central American & Caribbean Affairs | January 25, 2007)

  

Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

Apocalypto showed life in the Americas to be brutal, violent, and short, which from all availabe evidence, it was.

 

 

As it was in other parts of the world too (including parts of Europe) from time to time. And not all indigenous peoples in Americas always lived in a state of war and brutality.

 

Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

And whatever the faults of the Roman Catholic church, even in the counter-reformation, it was definitely a step up from the "old tyme" religion of human sacrifice and self-mutilation.

 

 

I don´t know if inquisition, witch hunts, endless wars, flagellants, self starvers and mission by the sword is a very great improvement.

 

Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

I keep hearing in this forum about how the movies (and books) portrayed native Americans in a negative light, but I frankly can't think of any from at least 1939 on. John Wayne's "Stagecoach"? How about "Hondo", or "the Searchers". They all looked pretty fair to me, given the context and point of view.  I think many posters here are searching for Rousseau's (and Engel's) noble savage despite their avowed rejection of that ideal. 

 

Even a blockbuster like “Raiders of the Lost Arch” show Natives as screaming savages.

Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Baron
Baron


Joined: 04-May-2007
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 479
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-May-2009 at 20:07
A somewhat odd and dreamlike movie about qonquistadors is the German "Aguirre der Zorn Gottes" by Werner Herzog (1972). Not so very much about the Amerindians (they mostly lurk in the background) but still a rather interesting and surrealistic movie.
 
From IMDB:
"The storys background is laid out  After the conquest and plundering of the Inca Empire by Spain, natives invented the legend of Eldorado in the headwaters of the Amazon. In 1560 an expedition set off to discover El Dorado. This is the story of the expedition based on the surviving diary of the monk Gaspar de Carvajal"
 
The beginning on Youtube:
 
 
Back to Top
drgonzaga View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 15-May-2005
Status: Offline
Points: 609
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-May-2009 at 23:33
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

drgonzaga, I think you'll find that you are out of your element here. you sound like you've actually studied the subject in some depth, as opposed to obtaining your knowledge from popular novels, or movies. I loved the quote from Tracie whatever-her-name-was reference the Mayans in present day Guatemala (10 years ago) being "exterminated simply because they were Mayans". Not to understate the violence of that war, but who the hell does she suppose made up rank and file of the Guatemalan Army? Other Mayans. As for the boat, I took that to be a fair historical representation, and presumed it to be either Cortez searching for Gonzalo Guerrero and Jeronimo de Aguilar, or possibly a beaching party looking for a fresh water supply or other somesuch landing so common to voyages then. Apocalypto showed life in the Americas to be brutal, violent, and short, which from all availabe evidence, it was. And whatever the faults of the Roman Catholic church, even in the counter-reformation, it was definitely a step up from the "old tyme" religion of human sacrifice and self-mutilation.

I keep hearing in this forum about how the movies (and books) portrayed native Americans in a negative light, but I frankly can't think of any from at least 1939 on. John Wayne's "Stagecoach"? How about "Hondo", or "the Searchers". They all looked pretty fair to me, given the context and point of view.  I think many posters here are searching for Rousseau's (and Engel's) noble savage despite their avowed rejection of that ideal. 
Well, Lirelou, as you can witness from the lengthy tirade delivered by Carcharedon, you've raised his dander. As you know a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing particularly if its possessor has Internet! However, refuge behind the blather of passing opinion premised upon ideological prejudices is extremely dangerous if one is actually unfamiliar with the breadth of historical background and academic research. For example, Carcharedon has the Spanish Inquisition chasing after witches; obviously, he is unfamiliar with the investigatory decretal of the 1609 Tribunal that was set up consequent to the advent of the general witch craze that broke out in Europe at that time. That tribunal assigned mental derangement as the condition of people claiming to be witches and concluded that the popular hysteria was not only the product of ignorance but also forbade all discussions of witches, witchcraft and accusations of such as deletorious fancies.
 
Similarly, you hit upon another flaw in Carcharedon's armour when he discussed the Amerind and the Media. It is a mixed bag and while there are plenty of examples appealing to the lowest common denominator, there were also streneous efforts to correct the more egregious representations. The films of John Ford are an excellent example. Even early on as with the caricature elaborated by D. W. Griffith's Battle at Elderbush Gulch (1914), there was also sympathetic realism as found in Edward L. Curtis' In the Land of the War Canoes released in that same year. Further, who can forget Nanook of the North. Now, the East German film industry in the 1960s loved to harp on the theme of the nasty Americans and what they did to the Amerind, but in doing so they had blatant political motives. And in a sense, Carch is making hay with such blather and hoping time has stood still since the 1950s. Perhaps, Carch might like to access the extensive collection of UC (Berkeley) and their Media Resource Center, which has explored this topic in their Race and Ethnicity Collection.
 
 
PS: And, yes, as you suspected I am a retired academic with a background in history, anthropology and archaeology.
Back to Top
drgonzaga View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 15-May-2005
Status: Offline
Points: 609
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2009 at 00:01
Carch wrote:

Traci Ardren is her name and she has studied Mayan culture for a rather long time.

 
Hence her dictats should be taken as official and free from bias!!!! Not! She is but a single voice that sounds a discordant note among historians, and entered the halls of Academia in 1997! Now Carch that might seem a long time to you but in terms of the entire breadth of Mesoamerican studies it is but a blip.
 
Admittedly, I have an unfair advantage in this department because of my connections to the University of Miami, but Traci does not have the last word on Maya history and society.
Here's her official blurb:
 
Traci Ardren, Ph.D. (Yale University, 1997)
Associate Professor
  • archaeologist interested in New World prehistoric cultures and the myriad ways the ancient past is interpreted.  Her research focuses on gender, iconography, architecture and other forms of symbolic representation in the archaeological record.   Dr. Ardren has conducted excavations on the west coast of Florida, at the Audubon House in Key West, at a Mississippian period site in Kentucky, and at Maya cities in Belize and Mexico.  She occasionally teaches an archaeological field school at locations throughout Florida during January Intersession.  Dr. Ardren was co-curator of the exhibition Visions of Empire: Picturing the Conquest in Colonial México at the Lowe Museum of Art in 2003, and Curator of Flowers for the Earth Lord: Guatemalan Textiles from the Lowe Art Museum Permanent Collection in 2006. Recent publications include Ancient Maya Women (AltaMira Press 2002), The Social Experience of Childhood in Ancient Mesoamerica (University Press of Colorado 2006), and “Mending the Past: Ixchel and the Invention of a Modern Pop Goddess” in the journal Antiquity (2006).

Research:  Dr. Ardren directs excavations at Xuenkal, an ancient Maya center in the northern Yucatán peninsula that dates to the Classic period (200 - 900 A.D.).  She is examining how the rise of the mega city of Chichén Itzá affected outlying settlements through detailed analysis of economic activities such as shell working, cotton cloth manufacture, and cacao arboculture.  Dr. Ardren is finishing a publication on Maya queens and writing a book on identity in the archaeological record of the northern Maya lowlands.   



Edited by drgonzaga - 26-May-2009 at 19:23
Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Baron
Baron


Joined: 04-May-2007
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 479
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2009 at 02:50
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

For example, Carcharedon has the Spanish Inquisition chasing after witches; obviously, he is unfamiliar with the investigatory decretal of the 1609 Tribunal that was set up consequent to the advent of the general witch craze that broke out in Europe at that time. That tribunal assigned mental derangement as the condition of people claiming to be witches and concluded that the popular hysteria was not only the product of ignorance but also forbade all discussions of witches, witchcraft and accusations of such as deletorious fancies.
 
I didn´t say the Spanish inquisition chasing witches, I just took the Spanish inquisition AND th witchunts as a couple of examples of the not always so civilized nature of the catholic church.
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Similarly, you hit upon another flaw in Carcharedon's armour when he discussed the Amerind and the Media. It is a mixed bag and while there are plenty of examples appealing to the lowest common denominator, there were also streneous efforts to correct the more egregious representations. The films of John Ford are an excellent example. Even early on as with the caricature elaborated by D. W. Griffith's Battle at Elderbush Gulch (1914), there was also sympathetic realism as found in Edward L. Curtis' In the Land of the War Canoes released in that same year. Further, who can forget Nanook of the North. Now, the East German film industry in the 1960s loved to harp on the theme of the nasty Americans and what they did to the Amerind, but in doing so they had blatant political motives. And in a sense, Carch is making hay with such blather and hoping time has stood still since the 1950s. Perhaps, Carch might like to access the extensive collection of UC (Berkeley) and their Media Resource Center, which has explored this topic in their Race and Ethnicity Collection. 
 
Noone denied that there are both better and worse movies about Native Americans and other indigenous peoples. As in film about nearly every topic, there are good ones and bad ones. But still today bad ones are produced.
And there are really a wealth of books on the topic of movies about the Amerind and other indigenous groups.
 
And yes I also saw "Nanook köldens son", a very interesting and moving film.
 
And you are not the only academic here.
 
 
 
Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Baron
Baron


Joined: 04-May-2007
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 479
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2009 at 03:15
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Hence her dictats should be taken as official and free from bias!!!! Not! She is but a single voice that sounds a discordant note among historians, and entered the halls of Academia in 1997! Now Carch that might seem a long time to you but in terms of the entire breadth of Mesoamerican studies it is but a blip. 
 
Noone says she is unbiased and noone says she has the last word in anything. But her opinion about Apocalypto are also shared by other reserachers in the field of Maya studies. Even here in Sweden we have such researchers and they express similar views about Apocalypto as she does.
 
Here is a couple of more voices about Apocalypto:
 

Andrea Stone, at the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee are not ovewhelmingly fond of Apocalypto:

 

Orcs in loincloth - A Mayanist Looks at Apocalypto 

http://www.archaeology.org/online/reviews/apocalypto2.html

 
 

And  David Freidel, Professor of Anthropology in Dallas, Texas also critizises the film:

 
Betraying the Maya

http://www.archaeology.org/0703/abstracts/maya.html

 

But everyone is of course entitled to have his or her own opinion about this film.

Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Baron
Baron


Joined: 04-May-2007
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 479
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2009 at 03:20
If someone is interested in reading about Native Americans in movies we also have a couple of books just to start with:
 

Celluloid Indians: Native Americans and Film, by Jacquelyn Kilpatrick

 

Injuns!: Native Americans In The Movies, by Edward Buscombe. Reaktion Books.

 

Hollywood's Indian: The Portrayal of the Native American in Film, by Peter C. Rollins

Back to Top
drgonzaga View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 15-May-2005
Status: Offline
Points: 609
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2009 at 19:21
In placing the emphasis on the Maya, one may attribute all sorts of motives to Mel Gibson, but one also has to keep in mind that critics can also be motivated by their own fancies. Thus, the principal reason I gave background on Professor Ardren--and now regret having included her e-mail [I used to list personal info on the forum but after being victimized by passing cranks that skulked through, I deleted such]--who firmly believes that "art" can substantiate all types of speculation on social relationships and structure. As one can infer from my postings, I am loathe to accept much of the terminology often employed in these endeavors: Maya "kings; Maya "Queens"...ugh! and aaahrg!
 
Thanks to the standard cant of modern day ideologies and posits, the Maya are as much a tool of politics by the "other" today as they were supposedly victimized by the European "conquest"--it is hardly edifying to portray anyone as "eternal victims"--and we totally invert the history of these peoples by refusing to recognize their own internal contradictions [yes, institutionalized violence was an integral part of their society]. In terms of agrarian life, the colonial period was hardly worse than what went before, and for several centuries the integrity of Mayan autonomy was effectively protected by the Church since the marginalization of Mayan society was a product of independence and its disestablishment of the Church--be it in Chiapas and Yucatan or in the Central American republics. Thus to assign contemporary ills to the Church is hogwash. By the way, Carch, the Inquisition had no authority over the Amerind, who, politically, were the direct vassals of the Crown and governed by their own cabildos.
 
 
In the history of the Americas, the rape of the Amerind is fully a phenomenon of the 19th and 20th centuries! Blame the political ideologues, moved by "liberal" principles and progressive mentalities shaped by European intellectuals, for the dispossession of the Amerind. Likewise, as I implied in the Xingu thread, much of the current harping comes from contemporary socio-economic palaver moved by questionable motives.
 
Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Baron
Baron


Joined: 04-May-2007
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 479
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2009 at 19:58
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

 By the way, Carch, the Inquisition had no authority over the Amerind, who, politically, were the direct vassals of the Crown and governed by their own cabildos.
  
 
I never said the inquisition was invoved concerning the Amerind.Ii just used it and some other phenomena as examples to show that the catholic church also behaved rather uncivilized against people in old times.
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

In the history of the Americas, the rape of the Amerind is fully a phenomenon of the 19th and 20th centuries! Blame the political ideologues, moved by "liberal" principles and progressive mentalities shaped by European intellectuals, for the dispossession of the Amerind. Likewise, as I implied in the Xingu thread, much of the current harping comes from contemporary socio-economic palaver moved by questionable motives. 
 
Also in the early days of conquest Amerindians were exterminated and opressed. The opression has been an ongoing process since the beginning up to today. But of course there have been periods with less opression as there has been periods with more opression. And the scale and scope of oppression has also varied geographically.
 
Back to Top
drgonzaga View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 15-May-2005
Status: Offline
Points: 609
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2009 at 20:43
Carch, are you actually understanding what you are writing in English? In the effort to maintain your position you are coming up with some zingers that are factually ridiculous. That you are anti-Catholic is obvious, but unfortunately, so is your full unfamiliarity with the history and institutions you wish to discuss.
 
You'd be hard-pressed to find a policy of extermination in the Nuevas Leyes de las Indias of 1542 and, in essence, you are more often than not simply parroting the nonesense long known as the Black Legend. Respect the integrity of the past, which was far more complex than you would have it. Expanding historical knowledge is one thing, falsifying history for the sake of contemporary political and ideological agendas or prejudices is reprehensible.
Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Baron
Baron


Joined: 04-May-2007
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 479
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2009 at 21:14

I have no political agenda more than just an interest in these matters. Of course there were exterminations and wars against the indigenous peoples early on in the history of conquests. To claim other is to falsify history and not respect the integrity of the past.

 
Strange discussion.
 
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
Editorial Staff
Editorial Staff
Avatar

Joined: 29-Sep-2006
Location: Chile
Status: Offline
Points: 7508
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2009 at 21:15
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

... 
Also in the early days of conquest Amerindians were exterminated and opressed. The opression has been an ongoing process since the beginning up to today. But of course there have been periods with less opression as there has been periods with more opression. And the scale and scope of oppression has also varied geographically.
 
 
Exactly. Still today some people believe "the Americas" mean "the U.S." LOL
The problems for Amerindians started with the Spaniards and haven't ended as yet. All over the hemisphere there are still lot of pending problems with Amerindians, robbery, discrimination, injustice, etc.


Edited by pinguin - 26-May-2009 at 21:16
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471)
Back to Top
lirelou View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai


Joined: 26-Mar-2009
Location: Tampa, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 137
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-May-2009 at 04:22
    "All over the hemisphere there are still lot of pending problems with Amerindians, robbery, discrimination, injustice, etc."

"All over the hemisphere" is gross overstatement and detracts from the argument you are trying to make. Furthermore, many of the "pending problems" arise from local history and conditions that must be taken into account. While there are many common social problems, alcoholism, the breakdown of families, unemployment, underemployment, and a wide range of anti-social activities, not all the causes are easily addressed. For instance, the Chiapas rebellion's causes included an increase in Indian population that put greater pressure on limited land resources, wedded to a social conflict which was religious based, i.e., community members who left the Catholic church, and thereby no longer contributed to the Catholic religious festivals, were ostracized, and at times attacked by their neighbors for having joined Evangelical Protestant churches. I once had an interesting conversation in the "Plaza Garibaldi" of Mexico City with a Chaipaneco "pastor" whose vision of the conflict was stated in terms of a vast Masonic conspiracy directed by the Pope, who was a secret Mason. Luckily for them, their saviour was a pipe smoking Marxist who wrote in the third person and had meaningful conversations with a cricket. Not at all like the problems that face Brazilian indigenous communities, though the symptoms may appear similar. I've never seen any similar probelms on Canadian or U.S. Indigenous Reserves. Two U.S. Army officers I served with included a Major who was born a Tarahumara Indian in Chihuahua, and a (later) Lieutenant Colonel who had been born a Quechua speaker in Ayacucho, Peru. Coming to the U.S. had obviously opened up their horizons.
Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì
Back to Top
drgonzaga View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 15-May-2005
Status: Offline
Points: 609
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-May-2009 at 13:45
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

I have no political agenda more than just an interest in these matters. Of course there were exterminations and wars against the indigenous peoples early on in the history of conquests. To claim other is to falsify history and not respect the integrity of the past.

 
Strange discussion.
 
 
Strange? Only if you consider your glittering generalities, more akin to the proverbial mackerel than to historical research, a recapitulation of the past. After all, Amerindians themselves conducted "wars" of extermination against rivals. Do you know the origins of the term, Chichimeca? Even Wiki can not obscure it despite the heavy effort at a layer of political correctness. In your efforts to portray the Amerind as historical "victims" you actually demean their integrity and the richness of regional histories. Further, you obscure the intricate patterns of ethnic conflicts and dispersals. Attempt an explanation of distinctions between Hopi and Navajo absent conflict and rivalry? Consequently where does the effort at falsification and disrepect of history really lie?
Back to Top
drgonzaga View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 15-May-2005
Status: Offline
Points: 609
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-May-2009 at 14:15
Well, Pinguin, when politics and economic competition meld one is confronted with strange cards, thus be careful when stating:
"The problems for Amerindians started with the Spaniards and haven't ended as yet. All over the hemisphere there are still lot of pending problems with Amerindians, robbery, discrimination, injustice, etc."
 
Current social problems can be thrust only just so far into the past. For example, let us look at the construct of the Mexican the intellectual, Jose Vasconcelos known as the Raza Cosmica. As history it is bunkum and as an explanation of the national character it is but a tool explaining the advent of a new oligarchy that chose to ignore what Simpson called in the 1930s the "many Mexicos". As a microcosm of the problem, the famous Guerra de Castas illustrates the connundrum and I heartily recommend this analysis found on-line:
 
 
What I find interesting in many of the interruptions raised by Carcharodon is the hint of "guilt" held by many Europeans over the question of progress as they so defined and imposed during the course of a century (1850-1950). Rather than accept blame for their ideological travesties, they are more interested in relegating it into a more distant past and a convenient whipping-boy, those crazed Spaniards and their lusts.
 

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 6>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.063 seconds.