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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scheich Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2006 at 11:54
Germany had enough SARIN, why didn't they SARIN on a V2?
Were they afraid...or...were there other problems?
What do you say about the story of U 234?

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dampier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2006 at 06:23
Originally posted by Scheich Scheich wrote:

Germany had enough SARIN, why didn't they SARIN on a V2?
Were they afraid...or...were there other problems?
 
Well they could have but Britian had poison gas too (which was prepared in case Operation Sea Lion came off). Hitler may not have wanted to kill fellow "Aryans" and the German Junker elite would probably have been against it as too barbaric.
 
On the African front alos consider the South African campaigns against the Italians in the rest of Africa. Then add the fact that the Italian army was basicly beaten and their territory capture before the DAK landed and that the Vichy French similarly did not last long and Africa becomes untenable to Germany unless they can force the Royal Navy out of the Med.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scheich Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2006 at 07:19
So the WW2 was not really a total war.
Hitler didn't use SARIN against UK, but why not against Russia?
The Russians were nor "Germanic" like the Brits.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2006 at 09:39
Ignoring WMDs for the moment, Germany's perennial problem is that it can't get out to the world stage without either allying with or first defeating and occupying its neighbours. That after all is what kicked off both WWI and WWII.
 
So it's difficult to have a 'duel' between Britain and Germany.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red4tribe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2006 at 20:44
The British Empire was coming towards it's end at the time so I still find it doubtful that Britian could have pushed both Italy and Germany out of Africa succesfuly because Britian was indeed a powerful nation but Germany was stronger and with the help of the Italians they were out of there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2006 at 05:00
Germany had the help of the Italians in North Africa, and it was still beaten. Before the US ever got there.
 
Anyway, this is supposed to be about Britain and Germany both of them unaided by independent powers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red4tribe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2006 at 13:39

America did get there and they drove out the Vichy French from Morroco and Algeria and then attacked Rommel in Tunsia which pinned him down.

Had this day been wanting, the world had never seen the last stage of perfection to which human nature is capable of attaining.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gundamor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2006 at 14:22
Rommel was done by the time America got truely involved in North Africa. The Commonwealth forces thoroughly beat him in El Alamein and had him in full retreat while the Americans were just landing or still dealing with the Vichy forces. Rommels lack of supplys, troops and armour pretty much sealed the deal for him. If anything the Americans just quickened his exit from North Africa. But not before he trashed them at Kasserine Pass.

I wouldnt toss the Italians in there as a factor. They were only good at surendering and extremely unreliable. I'm sure Rommel would of traded them for fuel or tanks any day haha.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red4tribe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2006 at 15:14
If the Italians weren't there they would have nnever made it half as far.There were more Italians there then Germans.
Had this day been wanting, the world had never seen the last stage of perfection to which human nature is capable of attaining.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dampier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2006 at 12:04
It should also be mentioned that if you want to use Italians etc you have to take into account the British commonwealth- the numerous countries that fought for Britain. That gives Britian more industrial and man power than all the Axis. Then add in Resistance and Free units. I mean think of the economical giant that is Hong Kong- that was British, so were places like Canada who had the third largest navy in the world at the end of WW2. Africa was a forgone conclusion before the Americans got there.
 
As GCLE says if Britain had won and America hadnt come into the war we might well have had a resurgent British Empire.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red4tribe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2006 at 13:53
That is an excellent point but Hong Kong was in Japanesse control before El Alamein.Canada did have an extremely large navy but I can't see even with the help of it a British victory in Africa.I understand all of your points but to put it simply it was 2 versues 1 and the British had a hard enough time just driving the Italians out of East Africa and to win in North Africa would have been very difficult.I can not see the island itself being taken over and they would have slowed down the Axis in North Africa and they could win but it would have been agansit the odds and very difficult.
Had this day been wanting, the world had never seen the last stage of perfection to which human nature is capable of attaining.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gundamor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2006 at 19:00
Originally posted by Red4tribe Red4tribe wrote:

the British had a hard enough time just driving the Italians out of East Africa


By February of 1941 the Itallians had lost 9 divisions 400 tanks and 1300 guns as well as 100,000 plus prisoners. British losess numbered fewer then 2000. I dont really see that as being a hard time. The Italians did improve later but only after Germany got involved. Plus Cunningham's Pond as the British refered the Mediteranean was ruled by the British Navy and RAF. This made it almost impossible to meet resupply needs. Rommel never reseived more then 1/3 of what he considered minium monthly supplies of fuel,ammo and much needed spare parts.


Whoops realized you said east africa. After the Itallians took Somaliland the British reorganized and fairly easily ousted the Itallians. Again resupply a problem as the Itallian fleet there was very limited by lack of fuel and eventually sunk.
    

Edited by Gundamor - 25-Jun-2006 at 20:18
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2006 at 04:29
Originally posted by Red4tribe Red4tribe wrote:

That is an excellent point but Hong Kong was in Japanesse control before El Alamein.
 
Now you're making it Britain vs Germany + Italy + Japan. Gets tougher every day.
 
If Japan comes into the war, how come the US stays out?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red4tribe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2006 at 08:34

Hong Kong surrenderd on December 25 1941.The United States did not start getting troops over there untill Mid to late 1942.The Soviets would have been in by that time realiving pressure but it would have been difficult like I said before.

Had this day been wanting, the world had never seen the last stage of perfection to which human nature is capable of attaining.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2006 at 10:52
Maybe but this thread was supposed to be about considering two-country duels, not bringing in all sorts of other third parties.
 
You could I suppose assume one or other of the parties invades a third party, but then you have to assume it would take the opposite side.
 
So, in the Britain vs Germany situation, the main question has to be how does Germany bring its ground superiority to bear, given British dominance at sea, and the historical fact that, fighting alone, the Luftwaffe was beaten off by the RAF in 1940 (even with the Germans operating from bases in western Europe)?
 
Apart from military considerations, you also have to bear in mind the relative wealth of the two countries, and their access to raw materials, either because they controlled them, or because they could afford to buy them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scheich Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2006 at 17:25
Who thinks that the most powerful countries during the 20th century were USA USSR Germany and UK?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2006 at 06:45

Don't forget Japan.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scheich Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2006 at 13:25
What do you say about Frace and Italy?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2006 at 08:17
During the 20th century Italy hardly ranked as a major power.
 
Up till 1939 France was a major power. Until then I'd rank it as more powerful than the US. From 1914 to 1937 or so it was more powerful than Germany, on a par with Japan, but not as all-round powerful as Britain (adding in their respective empires, of course).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 06:44
The US & UK combine would win the contest anyday.
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