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Forum Locked"Moors" and southwestern Europe.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Beatriz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: "Moors" and southwestern Europe.
    Posted: 13-May-2009 at 00:52
Originally posted by calvo

Well now, I think I understand what you mean about Spaniards trying to hide the Moorish legacy... they probably refer to the genetic part as some north-Europeans and Americans despise them theoretically with the excuse that they are "half-moorish" genetically, which they are not. Is that what you mean?
 
to be honest... at this day and age, after all the scientific discoveries of human genotypes and fenotypes that have completely refuted the 19th century ideas of "race"; if any human being is still obsessed with the idea that being of pure "European" blood makes one superior or inferior...., he would probably be suffering from some form of mental illness. Confused
I can't understand why some people see having non-European ancestry as an insult. If I was told that my great-great-great grandfather came from Congo, I'd probably be more proud than ashamed of it; and it wouldn't change who I am anyway.
 
Biologically speaking, being "inbred" has far more health risks than being "interbred".
 
 

No, I don't understand it either... but it's used as an insult, and also produces the wanted effect. Ignorance is the mother of boldness.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2009 at 01:32

If Latinos would consider a mixed origin an insult, we should suicide LOL

The problem with some "pure" people is that they believe "purity" is superiority, and that somehow mixed people only have "half" an heritage.
 
They are wrong. Mixed people don't have "half" and heritage but "twice".
 
 
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2009 at 01:37
Originally posted by pinguin

 

They are wrong. Mixed people don't have "half" and heritage but "twice".
 
 
 
 
This brings back one memory from many years ago.An Amerasian fellow said to me that they're " the best of two worlds " Clap
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2009 at 01:56
Indeed. That's the idea.
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2009 at 03:09
Originally posted by Ikki

 
 
The correct sentence is " 20% of the spanish people have a Middle East origin "
 
 
 
 
 
Exactly .... many independent DNA research studies concluded 15%-20% non-Euro ancestry of modern Spain population.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2009 at 03:25

That DNA stuff shoudln't be taken seriously with respect to tracing religion. Jews arrived around the first century BC and had 15 centuries to mix with local population, and they did.

The fact is, half those Spanish Jews got converted to Christianism and never left Spain. At least 200.000 people, which is a huge percentage of the Spanish population at that time. By then, it is likely both populations had the same genetic already. People don't pass 1500 years side by side without mixing.
 
Now, the influence of Jewish mentality shows in Spain in subtle ways. For instance, the love for books, letters and literature makes sense when one think most intellectuals in the Middle Age's Spain were Jews. And Jews love books. So it is not strange that Fernando de Rojas (La Celestina) and Miguel de Cervantes (Don Quixote) are very likely of converse origins.
 
Besides, that typical anticlericalism of Spanish speaking Intellectuals (so noticeable in Spinoza) and that is part of our tradition, could very well be the result of the fight for freedom in the converse, forced to addapt a religion.
 
I don't know. I was just speculating.
 
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2009 at 16:15
Originally posted by calvo



In the regions that they conquered,  they rebuilt the Roman cities abandoned during the Germanic invasions and developed a flourishing civilization known as Al Andalus.


 
 
Which Germanic tribes invaded the Iberia peninsula ?
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2009 at 17:00
Originally posted by pebbles

Originally posted by calvo



In the regions that they conquered,  they rebuilt the Roman cities abandoned during the Germanic invasions and developed a flourishing civilization known as Al Andalus.


 
 
Which Germanic tribes invaded the Iberia peninsula ?
 
 
THe Visigoths, were Germanic and invaded the Iberian peninsula. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2009 at 17:19
Originally posted by King John

Originally posted by pebbles

Originally posted by calvo



In the regions that they conquered,  they rebuilt the Roman cities abandoned during the Germanic invasions and developed a flourishing civilization known as Al Andalus.


 
 
Which Germanic tribes invaded the Iberia peninsula ?
 
 
 
 
THe Visigoths, were Germanic and invaded the Iberian peninsula.
 
 
 
 
They were a main branch of The Goths ( it's believed their original homeland:Gotland Sweden ),would it be correct to say Visgoths were Norsemen or Vikings ?
 
 
 


Edited by pebbles - 13-May-2009 at 17:20
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2009 at 17:26
Nope. Visigoths were Germans. Standard germans. The heritage of German words (and names) in Spanish was likely introduced by them. They weren't the only northern group that arrived to Spain but perhaps the most famous.
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2009 at 18:28
Originally posted by pebbles

Originally posted by King John

Originally posted by pebbles

Originally posted by calvo



In the regions that they conquered,  they rebuilt the Roman cities abandoned during the Germanic invasions and developed a flourishing civilization known as Al Andalus.


 
 
Which Germanic tribes invaded the Iberia peninsula ?
 
 
 
 
THe Visigoths, were Germanic and invaded the Iberian peninsula.
 
 
 
 
They were a main branch of The Goths ( it's believed their original homeland:Gotland Sweden ),would it be correct to say Visgoths were Norsemen or Vikings ?
 
 
 
It would be incorrect to call them Norsemen or Vikings, since those two names refer to a specific Iron Age society (c.793-c.1066).  This period is after the migrations of the Goths and their subsequent split into Ostrogoths and Visigoths.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Beatriz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2009 at 15:47

Originally posted by calvo

The Moors conquered very much all of the Iberian Peninsula in the 7th century less the mountainous regions of the northern coast. They were a mixture of Arabs and Berbers; with the former being the ruling elite and the latter being the bulk of the army.

In the regions that they conquered,  they rebuilt the Roman cities abandoned during the Germanic invasions, and developed a flourishing civilization known as Al Andalus.

During the first 2 centuries, Moorish rule was relatively tolerant towards Christians and Jews; provided that they paid more taxes; which made many of them convert to Islam.
In the population of Al Andalus, Arabs formed a very small minority; Berbers made up to 20% of the population, and the rest of the Muslim population were Muladies, Iberian converts to Islam. Of course there were also Christians living under Muslim rule (Morzárabes), and Jews.
During the 10th century, a new wave of recently-converted Berbers arrived from North Africa and founded new dynasties. They were less tolerant than their Arab forebears and persecutions of Christians and Jews began, causing many of them to flee to the Christian-controlled north.
The Christian kingdoms began to gain power and influence from then on; while the Muslim civilization started to decay.
After forming a political alliance, the Christians reconquered little by little the territory occupied by the Muslims; until the last Muslim kingdom in Granada fell in 1492.

After the Catholic reconquista, most of the Muslims converted to Christianity (many of them could have ancestors who were Catholic converts anyway). They were known as Moriscos.
In the height of the inquistion, they either had to give up all their Muslim-influenced customs and try to blend in with the Christian community as much as possible; or they had to leave. Many of them were expelled in the early 1600.

Regarding language, the official language of Al Andalus was Arabic ;  yet after the reconquista, Latin and Castillian Spanish was once again established as the de-facto language. Those who spoke Arabic as a first language had to learn Spanish fast, or face expulsion for being accused of a Morisco.
Nevertheless, the Arabic legacy is very visible in the 4000-5000 Arabic loan words in modern Spanish. Castillian architecture is also strongly influenced by Islam. Many cathedrals in Andalucía and Aragon were converted from mosques. ---> Yes, but we cannot forget either that most moques were also converted from Visigothic temples, like the Mosque of Córdoba.

Due to the inquistion mentality and the dictatorship of the Catholic Church in Spain that lasted until the death of Franco; many Spaniards have been brainwashed to deny and even to despise any Arabic influence in modern Spain. ---> I more than anything relate the Spanish repulsion about "the Moorish" as the result of centuries of prejudiced and Romantic ideas on the part of European Romantic writers who wanted to imagine an Oriental and exotic Spain opposed with other Northern European countries. I also think we must blame people that used "Moorish influence" in Spain as a way to look down on us like :"Africa starts in Pyrenees". In Franco's time, there as still said that "Moors and Spanish" were first cousins, so let me disagree.
They do not realise that we are living off our Moorish heritage to a great extent; for the very fact that every year millions of tourists visit the Alhambra in Granada, the Great Mosque of Córdoba; and medieval cities such as Toledo famous for its "heritage of 3 cultures"!


I agree with most of the bulk of what you are saying, however I would like to clarify a few things about this matter off the top of my head:

-The perfectly different legal, economic and of social level regimes , if any political circumstances impelled to that, resulted in very bloody persecutions, like the one which took place ALREADY around the middle 9th century against Christians in Abdehrraman II's time.

-When Arabic was introduced in the Iberian peninsula, it had to coexist with the languages spoken by the different communities that inhabited Al-Andalus, namely: Romance, Hebrew, Berber and Hispano-arabic dialect (Mozarabe), which was not only used in the everyday communication but also in excelent literary expressions known as "zejeles". So even if the language of culture was Arabic, it was Mozarabe the most widely spoken all over.

-About living off our Moorish "legacy?": I think it's the other way round- in cities like Granada, everything that's Moorish is highlighted and pointed as main attraction, and there are Moorish things sold, say "Moorish things" that are not by any standard characteristic of Granada but rather of  the present North of Africa (not even Al-Andalus)  just for the sake of the exotism and to attract tourists' attention. Just like seeing Flamenco dressed dolls in Madrid or Mexican hats in the Ramblas of Barcelona.

Edited by Beatriz - 10-Jun-2009 at 16:03
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2009 at 17:58
Originally posted by Beatriz


...-About living off our Moorish "legacy?": I think it's the other way round- in cities like Granada, everything that's Moorish is highlighted and pointed as main attraction, and there are Moorish things sold, say "Moorish things" that are not by any standard characteristic of Granada but rather of  the present North of Africa (not even Al-Andalus)  just for the sake of the exotism and to attract tourists' attention. Just like seeing Flamenco dressed dolls in Madrid or Mexican hats in the Ramblas of Barcelona.
 
When the conquistadors arrived to the Americas they brought with them handcrafts and art styles that came from the Arabs. The horse races the Spanish used were also of Arab origin, togeter with words and even the aspect of more than a Spaniard! I bet there were the Spaniard themselves who spread through the world that Arabic legacy of Al-Andalus, without even noticing they carried it. Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2009 at 09:42
Originally posted by pinguin

Nope. Visigoths were Germans. Standard germans. The heritage of German words (and names) in Spanish was likely introduced by them. They weren't the only northern group that arrived to Spain but perhaps the most famous.


"Standard Germans"? What is that? Tongue

It's unconventional to call the Goths Norsemen or Vikings, but they were both Germanic, and there is no reason to separate between Germanic peoples in Scandinavia and those settled in continental Europe at this point in history. This is only logical, considering how all Germanic peoples had spread relatively recently from Scandinavia. You need go no further back than 1200 BC and you will not find any Germanic peoples outside of Scandinavia. The peoples living in what is today Germany still spoke Celtic languages.

Here can be seen the spread of Germanic tribes, from the heartland in southern Scandinavia in 750 BC, to their furthest extent in 1 AD (the green area):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/03/Germanic_tribes_(750BC-1AD).png

The Goths themselves most likely migrated from southern Sweden to continental Europe around 200 AD, from there to the Black Sea and were then pushed west by the Huns in the later 4th century. Even today southern Sweden is called Gothland (Götaland) and off the eastern coast lies an island called Gotland, names that go back as far as recorded history. The Goths themselves referred to their ancestral homeland as "Scandza".

In other words, even though it would be highly unconventional to think of the Goths as Vikings or Norsemen, names usually associated with a much later age, to be pedantic the Visigoth kings of Iberia were remotely related to them. Still, we should keep Goths and Vikings as separate phenomenons in history. Wink

To get back on topic; the Moorish conquest of Iberia, though unfortunate for the Visigoth royal dynasty, udoubtedly brought the civilization of the peninsule to previously unseen heights. Next to Byzantium Al-Andalus was the most advanced society in Europe for centuries, built on the heritage of the Roman and Persian empires as brought together by the Arab conquests and channelled into their realms (and beyond). To answer the question of the thread starter I would therefore advise against operating with a clear dividing line between a Muslim and Christian cultural sphere in the first place, on the contrary Al-Andalus should be considered a unique entity based on the fusing of several traditions; Muslim, Christian and Jewish, as well as Roman, Arab and Persian. Of course, during the heyday of Al-Andalus the political and cultural focus was mainly directed south and east, while as the Reconquista advanced Iberia was increasingly influenced by the other European kingdoms, but by this time the heritage of Al-Andalus was already an inherent part of Iberian culture, which the Iberians carried with them even after 1492.

Concerning the Visigoths, they were not displaced by the Moorish conquest. The royal dynasty lost everything, but many Gothic noblemen continued in their position and kept their lands, even after having fought the invaders. A famous example is the nobleman Theodemir, who was a great landowner around Murcia and despite opposing the Moors he had his possessions confirmed by a treaty after 711. Later on he visited the Caliph in Baghdad.


Edited by Reginmund - 11-Jun-2009 at 09:43
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2009 at 03:00
Visigoths weren't Vikings, of course, but German speakers that started to arrived to Spain earlier that norse raids even started.
Theirs heritage can still be perceived not only in Spanish and Hispanic peoples appariences (some look nordics) but also in the language itself. Believe it or not words as Spanish sounding as the following are Germanic in origin: Bandido, Bandera, Banda, Guzman, Bernardo, and a thousand more.
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2009 at 05:32
Originally posted by pinguin

Visigoths weren't Vikings, of course, but German speakers that started to arrived to Spain earlier that norse raids even started.
Theirs heritage can still be perceived not only in Spanish and Hispanic peoples appariences (some look nordics) but also in the language itself. Believe it or not words as Spanish sounding as the following are Germanic in origin: Bandido, Bandera, Banda, Guzman, Bernardo, and a thousand more.
 
You forget the most obvious Nordic clue, the ez surnames: "son of". For example, Gonzalez is the equivalent of Gunderalfson. As for the hirsute, the Spanish bigote is the germanic bei Got! And guardia is wardja. And if you wish to terminate a Spanish vampire you had best sharpen your estaca or stakka.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2009 at 10:10
Originally posted by pebbles

 
They were a main branch of The Goths ( it's believed their original homeland:Gotland Sweden ),would it be correct to say Visgoths were Norsemen or Vikings ? 
 
The homeland of the Goths seems rather have been south of the Baltic sea. That they should have come from the relatively small island of Gotland is not likely. The archaeological record or other evidence doesn´t support this rather antiquated idea.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2009 at 13:32
Originally posted by Carcharodon

The homeland of the Goths seems rather have been south of the Baltic sea. That they should have come from the relatively small island of Gotland is not likely. The archaeological record or other evidence doesn´t support this rather antiquated idea.


Has there been a theory claiming they were from Gotland? It seems far more reasonable to assume they were from southern Sweden, ie Gothland/Götaland, and then they migrated or extended their influence to the island nearby, so that it assumed a similar name.

Seeing as the Goths were Germanic it's impossible that they originated in their settlement in today's Poland, they must have emigrated from Scandinavia at some point, and seeing as their stamp is set on southern Sweden it seems most likely this was the area.
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