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    Posted: 01-Nov-2004 at 10:33

I'm sure you've all herd of their famous victories in which they defeated troops that outnumbered them, but what are some of their defeats in battle? Please describe them.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2004 at 18:18

There were three instances where the Koreans defeated Mongols. 

The next one was on Fort Cheo-In, year 1232, when 30,000 Mongolic troops under general Salitai invaded.  It took just one shot of god from Militia leader Kim Yoon Hu to kill the all mighty mongolic general.  The Mongolic army retreated soon after, and a miraculous victory was obtained.  Because it was such a victorious day for the Koreans, they build a tower to honor the kill.

Sammak-Sa 3 storey tower

The other one happened in 1236, In fort Jook Ju, by 1000 recruits under militia general Song Moon Ju against the 24000 mongolic forces.  The mongols brought cannons all the way from China, and were bombarding the walls.  However, during the 15 day combat, the militias were able to defeat the mongols.  It was because general Song knew the mongolic strategy from Kweeju battle, a previous korean victory over Jurchens, who also employed similar tactics in comparison with the Mongols.  Also, Song had rooted many Poles on the walls, creating a psycological blow to the mongols (they thought more men were defending the place than their numbers).  Finally, the fort was also triple walled, and so cannons were less effective in bringing the wall down.   

The other one was by Kim Yoon Hu again, 1253, versus the mongols under Yagul.  The mongols had raveged through 2 other forts, and layed siege for 70 days in Choong Ju, a fort.  As moral and supply were running out, he called out : "If we dare to fight and win, I shall pummel all class levels and sacrifice all titles!" and encouraged the caste classes who were left on the fort fighting (the mayor and the rich ones had fled the town before the siege).  The battle is remembered more as a struggle for humanitarian rights more than a battle to defeat the mongols.  The Mongols, after exhaustion, retreated.  This fort was never conquered by the mongols throughout the history of Korea.

Grrr..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TJK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2004 at 00:45

Jelal Ad Din vs Mongols

Parwan 1221

Ilkanids vs Mameluks

Ain Jalut 1260

Homs 1281

Invasions of Vietnam

Ist 1257

IInd 1284

IIrd 1287

Invasion of Japan

Ist 1274

IInd 1281

Golden Horde vs Russian principalities

Voza 1378

Kulikovo Pole 1380



Edited by TJK
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AAAA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2004 at 09:27
TJK, can you elaborate them a little more.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TJK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2004 at 10:13
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TMPikachu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2004 at 19:27

Jin Dynasty-

Siege of Chung-tu, 5,000 Jin Imperial guardsmen repulse Mongol invaders

Ta-Ch'ang-yuan, 1228

400 Jin Cavalry lead by Wan-yen (with an unknown number of Chinese infantry) defeat 8,000 mongols

Such victories were brief, of course.

Generally, from what I know the Mongols suffered the most losses in fighting the Song Dynasty.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote warhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2004 at 20:05

And don't forget Gui De where 450 Jin elite troops defeated a mongol army more than 10 times its size drowning more than 3,500 Mongols and killing genearl Sajisibuhua.

 

also the first attack of Beijing failed, Genghis retreated north and attacked two years later, The initial attack on Kaifeng was also defeated, and the mongols changed strategy and allied with Song.

Then their was Xiang Yang, which caused the death of up to 50,000 mongol troops.

At Java, the mongol warship were ambushed and annilated, in Burma, the Shan Brothers defeated them in 1294 and drove them out of northern Burma.

Battle of BeiJing, Ayushiridara, son of Temur fled to Outer Mongolia, 50,000 Mongol warriors were captured along with the empress and his son Maidiribala. After putting a Ming commander in chains for a defeat, Xu Da overcame mongol general Koko's army, which lost a reported 84,000 soldiers as Koko fled.

The battle of lake Baikal in 1388 when General Lan Yu led an army of 150,000 across the Gobi Desert to attack the Mongols; the mongol army was trapped near baikal and 77,000 people were captured including 3,000 princes and one hundred from the ruling family and its entourage along with 150,000 animals. Karakorum was burned to the ground. This desicively weakened the Khalkas and led to the rise of the Wala.

 

Yongle's campaigns in 1410 and drove khalka chief Arughtai east and defeated him. Emperor Yongle launched his second campaign in 1414, using cannons to force Wala chieftain Mahmud to flee, and his death two years later ended the Oirat Mongol threat.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mangudai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2004 at 10:05

In fact the mongols weren't "that" good, they certainly weren't the "super warriors" as they're often depictured as. They probably suffered as many defeats as they won victories, like most armies in history

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2004 at 12:14
And I think mongols were only noctorious that when they pludered a city, they left nothing alive.  They were good in psycological warfare.  They would always let some people live so that they can spread the rumor of the attrocities which would then demoralize the upcoming cities to plunder.
Grrr..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Demetrios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2004 at 17:23

  So true. I hate mongols. They are usurpating there reputation of beeing the best army of there time.

 I could justify, but don't need to regarding  the many defeat you all just mentioned



Edited by Imperator Invictus
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mongke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2004 at 22:04

Mongol army in a way inspired mobile warfare like blitzkrieg. The weakness of the mongol was in the navy. They didn't seem to have understood naval warfare at all.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2004 at 00:18
Originally posted by mongke mongke wrote:

Mongol army in a way inspired mobile warfare like blitzkrieg. The weakness of the mongol was in the navy. They didn't seem to have understood naval warfare at all.

Not at all surprising for a nation of horsemen, when you think about it.

Venice was built in a lagoon for a reason, after all.

"Who despises me and my praiseworthy craft,

I'll hit on the head that it resounds in his heart."


--Augustin Staidt, of the Federfechter (German fencing guild)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2004 at 13:23
they were skilled in naval warfare a lot. they defeated 2 song navies and where the only force ever to attack japan on it's own shores.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mongke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2004 at 15:10
Originally posted by Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner wrote:

Originally posted by mongke mongke wrote:

Mongol army in a way inspired mobile warfare like blitzkrieg. The weakness of the mongol was in the navy. They didn't seem to have understood naval warfare at all.

Not at all surprising for a nation of horsemen, when you think about it.

Venice was built in a lagoon for a reason, after all.

Similar situation with Korean resistance fleeing to an island. Neither case did much good. Koreans eventually giving up and surrendering to the mongols and Rome falling.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mongke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2004 at 21:25

These defeats tend to happen in nonsteppe areas(duh!). As I recall the mameluks

realized that the mongols did not have a baggage train and they lived off the pastures to feed their horses. The mameluks engaged in a scorched earth policy in syria. As a consequence the mongols were unable to get back into syria after their initial defeats eventhough they did have some success later on. A joint christian-mongol alliance would have been a nightmare scenario for the mameluks.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2004 at 23:23
Originally posted by mongke mongke wrote:

Originally posted by Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner wrote:

Originally posted by mongke mongke wrote:

Mongol army in a way inspired mobile warfare like blitzkrieg. The weakness of the mongol was in the navy. They didn't seem to have understood naval warfare at all.

Not at all surprising for a nation of horsemen, when you think about it.

Venice was built in a lagoon for a reason, after all.

Similar situation with Korean resistance fleeing to an island. Neither case did much good. Koreans eventually giving up and surrendering to the mongols and Rome falling.

 

 

It certainly worked quite well for the inhabitants of what would eventually become Venice.

Horses can admittedly swim, but they suddenly lose their tactical effectiveness in such situations.

"Who despises me and my praiseworthy craft,

I'll hit on the head that it resounds in his heart."


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote THemOngolians Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2004 at 00:24
the only thing that stands out is the storm that hit the fleet sailing to japan where it was like the largest ever assembled and most of it got destroyed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2004 at 13:59
Mongols launched the largest ever naval campaigns until the conquest of the americas, yet they never get credit for it because people only talk about their failures, especially in the japanese campaigns. same goes for siege warfare.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mongke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2004 at 20:40
Probably because mongols aren't noted for being seafarers eventhough they employed chinese and Korean seamen for this campaign
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jan-2005 at 19:28
Originally posted by TJK TJK wrote:

Golden Horde vs Russian principalities

Voza 1378

Kulikovo Pole 1380



We are mixing several things here. I am assuming that when we say "Mongols" we mean Genghis Khan and his immediate successors or generals, part of Mongol Empire. Golden Horde was an independent Khanate around Crimea and only thing that it has in common with Mongol empire is that empire provided a venue for Tartar migration. This was a very powerful Khanate and managed to conquer principality of Moscow at some time in its existensce. Interesting part is that Genghis Khan almost destroyed Tartars for resisting him at the time of unification of Mongolia.
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