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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mind Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2008 at 10:51
Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:

If the average monthly earning is 17000 and the monthly cost of an apartment is 3000, then the living standard certainly isn't bad; in fact better than most families in Spain who sometimes dedicate more than half their income in paying for the house.

Yes, but it's still $700, after all, and all other prices are slowly, but surely climb up to the European level. Food is relatively cheap, like bread is around ¢75 for a 0.5kg loaf, milk is $1.4 for a litre, butter is $1.3 for 200g, cheese is from $8 to $15 for 1kg, raw meat is about $10 for 1kg, and so on. Books range from $5 to $20 and more. One bus ticket is from ¢35 in Samara to $1 in Moscow. Petrol is $0.9 per litre.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mind Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2008 at 11:00
Originally posted by Chilbudios Chilbudios wrote:

IIRC Lenin was from a family of mixed origins living on Volga. He was a Russian, of course, but his non-Russian origins are known.

A little bit Russian, a little bit Swedish, a little bit Jew, a little bit Chuvash. And the oriental features of his face, most probably, are a trait of his Kalmyk roots.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2008 at 12:12
Quote A little bit Russian, a little bit Swedish, a little bit Jew, a little bit Chuvash.


That's as Russian as one can get, IMHO.
Always try to be as radical as reality itself. - Lenin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2008 at 15:39
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi Beylerbeyi wrote:

Quote A little bit Russian, a little bit Swedish, a little bit Jew, a little bit Chuvash.


That's as Russian as one can get, IMHO.
 
Exactly. Big%20smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mind Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2008 at 22:25
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi Beylerbeyi wrote:

Quote A little bit Russian, a little bit Swedish, a little bit Jew, a little bit Chuvash.

That's as Russian as one can get, IMHO.

Well said :). That's what we are.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2008 at 08:51
Hello to you all
 
In regards to racism and racist problems, race riots and problems are much more prevalent in Russia than some here have mentioned. Race problems extend beyond the two capitals.
 
In Krasnodar for example there were anti-Turkish riots, directed against the Meskhitians Turks by the Cossack, in 2005. Similar riots directed against Chechens and other Caucassian peoples were also reported and covered, mostly by western media, in Karelia particularly in 2006, and elsewhere.
 
Ethnic tensions are a real problem in Russia and may get out of hand if not addressed especially due to the unholy alliance of the church (which was involved in some of the riots), the government and the extreme right.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Dec-2008 at 06:13

To say that Russian church is somehow involved in racist alliance with someone in Russia is nonsense.

And also one should investigate the reasons why did the riots happened in Kondoboga and Krasnodar region. They were created only by the complete ignorance of the local police which being generously bribed by Chechen and Meckhetian mafia turned a blind eye on their business which was the main reason for what happen.

So, yes, the state is involved. But it's involved in a sense that it's unable to terminate the corruption within  the law enforcement agencies but not in a sense that it's somehow encourages any kind of enthnic violance.

In fact, Russian Orhthodox church does have very good relations with
"traditional cofessions" of Russia which include Islam, Buddhism and Judaism.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Dec-2008 at 10:16
Hello Sarmat
 
About the alliance of the Russian government with the church, well here is the thing. Mixing religion with politics is bad because of the nature of both systems. Both are based on domination, government dominates the public while religion dominates the private and both strive to extend their domination over the individual and to each other's spheres. This means a clash between the two and a clash with the individual. Now this applies as much to Saudi Arabia with its 100% muslim population. Imagine when only one religion starts to extend its influence in a country like Russia where a third of its population don't even ascribe to that religion and the majority of that religion's own adherents are quite secular (Russia still has the worlds highest abortion rates and liberal abortion laws and with strong popular support). The problem is not in the church per se, it is in some elements within and particularly outside the church that use it and its enormous wealth and influence for their own agenda. This is wrong and will lead to trouble sooner or later.
 
As for the Meskhetians, come on, these poor peoples were kicked from their homes by the Soviets, the Uzbeks and when they wanted to come back to Georgia nobody there wanted them and Russia, which is ultimately responsible for them, refused even to grant them a descent living. I never heard they were ever involved in any criminal activities or else the Americans wouldn't have given them assylem.
 
And blaming the Kurelia riots on chechen mob is naive. The riots were directed at anything that was none Russian, there is no prsence, to my knowledge, of Chechen mob in that region. It was a pogrom and nothing more.
 
Racism in Russia is a real problem and it must be confronted and no racist activity should be justified. Here is a good Time magazine piece about the subject that shows how really deep this problem is:
 
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Edited by Al Jassas - 07-Dec-2008 at 10:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Dec-2008 at 11:32
A friend of mine was travelling in the former USSR some years ago. WHen he was in the Crimea (which is actually the Ukraine, but populated by ethnic Russians), he ran into several demonstrations and rallies of Russians and slavs against the re-settlement of the Crimean Tatars.
Violence directed at re-settled Tatars in the Crimea also seems to be rather widespread.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Dec-2008 at 15:40
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

Hello Sarmat
 
About the alliance of the Russian government with the church, well here is the thing. Mixing religion with politics is bad because of the nature of both systems. Both are based on domination, government dominates the public while religion dominates the private and both strive to extend their domination over the individual and to each other's spheres. This means a clash between the two and a clash with the individual. Now this applies as much to Saudi Arabia with its 100% muslim population. Imagine when only one religion starts to extend its influence in a country like Russia where a third of its population don't even ascribe to that religion and the majority of that religion's own adherents are quite secular (Russia still has the worlds highest abortion rates and liberal abortion laws and with strong popular support). The problem is not in the church per se, it is in some elements within and particularly outside the church that use it and its enormous wealth and influence for their own agenda. This is wrong and will lead to trouble sooner or later.
 
As for the Meskhetians, come on, these poor peoples were kicked from their homes by the Soviets, the Uzbeks and when they wanted to come back to Georgia nobody there wanted them and Russia, which is ultimately responsible for them, refused even to grant them a descent living. I never heard they were ever involved in any criminal activities or else the Americans wouldn't have given them assylem.
 
And blaming the Kurelia riots on chechen mob is naive. The riots were directed at anything that was none Russian, there is no prsence, to my knowledge, of Chechen mob in that region. It was a pogrom and nothing more.
 
Racism in Russia is a real problem and it must be confronted and no racist activity should be justified. Here is a good Time magazine piece about the subject that shows how really deep this problem is:
 
AL-Jassas
 
Well. Your knowledge about the events dear Al-Jassas is incorrect and naive at best. The violence in Kandopoga happened after several Russian teenagers were virtually cut to pieces by Chechen gangs and the Russian police failed to do anything (the gangs confused those innocent guys with someone else).
 
 
The violence in Krasnodar Krai happened after many instances of brutal rape of local children by Meschetian men.
 
Sometimes, the ignorance and falsification of the news regarding Russia that is so prevalent in the Western press goes too far.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Dec-2008 at 16:19
Hello Sarmat
 
Sorry but my knowledge of the situation is not naive. In Kondopoga a pub brawl between Russians and the Azeri owner in August that resulted in the death of two Russian was magnified when nationalists and neo-Nazis started coming in early Sept and agitating people. It was a blatent racist riot and here are Russian news sources for more info:
Plus, do you know what is the best thing about racist? They don't need to justify their crimes and this is the first time I ever heard about Chechen mob being invloved in the Karelia riots. Here is a Russian link for the racists who coordinated the riots:
 
As for the Meskhitians, well this guy disagrees with you and gives us the real reason behind the riots, they are "our enemies":
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mind Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2008 at 11:24
Al Jassas,
I don't know much about what happened to the Meskhetian Turks in 2005, but I've heard a lot about their problems in Krasnodar and Kuban before.

As for the events in Kondopoga, you've said it all:
Quote In Kondopoga a pub brawl between Russians and the Azeri owner in August that resulted in the death of two Russian was magnified when nationalists and neo-Nazis started coming in early Sept and agitating people.

It would've remained just a brawl had it not been for the Chechens who started beating all Russians who happened to be near the caffee. Three were killed, 9 were hospitalized. Then came the nationalists. And they came from the same two plague spots: St.Pete and Moscow. Anyway, they killed no-one. The caffee was set on fire, but, AFAIK, not a single non-Russian was beaten or, gods forbid, killed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mind Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2008 at 11:30
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

Plus, do you know what is the best thing about racist? They don't need to justify their crimes and this is the first time I ever heard about Chechen mob being invloved in the Karelia riots.

http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Chechens+reluctant+to+return+to+Kondopoga+after+riots/1135221449331
http://www.cacianalyst.org/?q=node/4287
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2008 at 12:32
Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

Well. Your knowledge about the events dear Al-Jassas is incorrect and naive at best. The violence in Kandopoga happened after several Russian teenagers were virtually cut to pieces by Chechen gangs and the Russian police failed to do anything (the gangs confused those innocent guys with someone else).
 
The violence in Krasnodar Krai happened after many instances of brutal rape of local children by Meschetian men.
 
Sometimes, the ignorance and falsification of the news regarding Russia that is so prevalent in the Western press goes too far.


This continues to bother me as well. The Russian fleet can barely move one of its ships in the Arctic before the papers here start to write as if invasion was imminent. If we were dealing with Stalin's Russia such paranoia might've been justified, but any form of military aggression from the present Russia against NATO or EU nations is more unlikely now than it has ever been.

The way I see it Russians and other Europeans, especially northern Europeans, have more in common than not and both would benefit from a more intimate relationship. Unfortunately many Europeans buy into the American russophobic agenda and support initiatives such as the rocket shield which only contribute to increasing alienation, to the benefit of everyone except the EU and Russia.

As for the Chechens, tragic as their fate is I have long since lost faith in their cause and how they choose to fight it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2008 at 13:10
Originally posted by mind mind wrote:


It would've remained just a brawl had it not been for the Chechens who started beating all Russians who happened to be near the caffee. Three were killed, 9 were hospitalized. Then came the nationalists. And they came from the same two plague spots: St.Pete and Moscow. Anyway, they killed no-one. The caffee was set on fire, but, AFAIK, not a single non-Russian was beaten or, gods forbid, killed.
 
Agreed. I'm against any violent retaliations.  But my point is that the both parties are guilty, and in many instances racists are succesfully using the fruits of hate that was sewed by the ethnic organized crime.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2008 at 14:51
Well the Russians at the sources above disagree. Plus the problem and murders happened in August and ended there. It was later that racist started agitating not against criminals but against every Caucassian in town. What happened in the restaurant doesn't justify the unprovoked and indiscriminant rioting that happened 2 weeks later.
 
As I said, these people (ultra nationalists and racists) are still a minority but unfortunately the Russian government is doing nothing to stop them. One of their leaders (Zhirinovsky) in the Duma's top offices and this guy is really crazy. These racists publically boast with their actions and the problem is that the state is complicit. When racists blew up 8 migrants some years ago in Moscow the procecuter complained "there were too many foreigner".
 
The events at Karelia showed no just how these racists are strong in Russia but they also showed the troubling potential that results in leaving this problem untackled. Ramazan Kadyrov, who nobody disputed him being a Russian Bulldog, threatened to "defend his citizens" during the riots. Just imagine if he put those words into practice.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2008 at 15:14
Unfortunately, dear Al Jassas, your comments again show the lack of familiarity with the subject.
 
Mr. Zhirinovsky is a political buffoon who is not taking seriously by any one. The funniest thing that he himself is a Jewish (he also was a member of a Sionist political organization in the 1980th) at the same time he makes "anti-Semitic" remarks. He also appears all the time in the Russian TV-comedian shows.
 
To be honest, I can't help laughing while thinking about him.
 
The real problem in Kandaboga was a corrupted police that refused to investigate the killings of Russian teenagers (being bribed again, of course) and that helped the ultra-nationalists to create the disorder.
 
And yes, I agree that the Russian government is somehow careless in dealing with the violent racism. For some reasons, they think it's not that important.
 
However, recently Putin made a statement that such things should be stopped. I hope it won't just remain a statement.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mind Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2008 at 06:35
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

Well the Russians at the sources above disagree. Plus the problem and murders happened in August and ended there. It was later that racist started agitating not against criminals but against every Caucassian in town.

As a matter of fact, the sources you have quoted give more or less the same story:
Quote diners in a local res-taurant provoked a massive fight by their offensive behavior; the fight was obviously a «criminal showdown» involving ethnic Chechen bandits; two people were killed and six seriously injured. This, and blatant inaction of the local police, caused massive protests and numerous, lasting for many days, arson attacks against the property of local residents of the Caucasus origin. There were at least 20 arson attacks in the city of Kondopoga and neigh-boring districts in the first week of September. By unofficial data, at least eight people whose appearance suggested their Caucasus origin were injured in the pogroms.

Quote What happened in the restaurant doesn't justify the unprovoked and indiscriminant rioting that happened 2 weeks later.

You make me blush :). I feel like I'm defending the nazis. I'm not. I'm not even saying that racism is not a problem in Russia. Unfortunately, it is. Moreover, it is a huge problem, people are killed in the nazi attacks. But the events in Kondopoga were not as simple as "evil nazis vs innocent citizens".
Quote
As I said, these people (ultra nationalists and racists) are still a minority but unfortunately the Russian government is doing nothing to stop them. One of their leaders (Zhirinovsky) in the Duma's top offices and this guy is really crazy. These racists publically boast with their actions and the problem is that the state is complicit. When racists blew up 8 migrants some years ago in Moscow the procecuter complained "there were too many foreigner".

With this I would mostly agree. Except that I'm not inclined to take Zhirinovsky seriously. I'm afraid I may be mistaking, but in my opinion he runs one of the most successful political businesses in the world. He sells the parliament seats and in exchange for the possibility to do so he votes (as a party, not as a person) as he's told.
Quote However, recently Putin made a statement that such things should be stopped.

He is the person I tend to trust least of all :). He said more than once that patriotism should be the national ideology.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2008 at 14:40
The rise of Nazism in Russia demonstrates how absurd nationalism can be; and that racism and nationalism is purely in the mind.
 
Logically, the Russians are one of the last people on Earth to embrace Nazi ideology, who embraced the superiority of pure white Aryan Nordics and European culture.
 
The Russian nation is one who had inherited a great deal from Asiatic nations, both culturally, politically, and genetically. Hitler even considered the Slavs as an inferior nation for this very reason.
There's even a saying that prior to Peter the Great's westernization movement, Russia was more of an Asian than a European nation for that culturally it had far more contacts with Turco-Tatar and Finno-Ugric peoples than with European nations.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2008 at 16:06
It was a different beast, indeed, but after the westernisation it may be considered European in all things significant.

Hitler's low opinion of the Russians I suspect had more to do with politics than race, as the Russians have a higher percentage of people fulfilling the Nazi's physical ideals than the Germans.

http://strangemaps.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/blond_hair_map1.jpg

You will also notice that modern Russian nationalists define the Russian people based on physical ideals that are identical to those of the Nazis.
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