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Post Options Post Options   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Minoans in America
    Posted: 16-Jan-2009 at 18:36
Were the Minoans in America?
I came across a magazine titled "BC America" and it had an article about the so-called evidence that someone (who I don't know) found, Minoan artifacts in North America. I think it was in Michigan or some island between Canada and the USA. I think it is called Island Royale and they claim to have found large coppers mines with tons of sl*g. More than the indians could have used or so they claimed.

Could the Minoans have come to North America to mine for copper for the bronze trade?

Why go so far when Europe,at the time, was a huge wilderness filled with various tribes?

Did they use the Kelts as miners like the article claimed?
It was a few years back so I do not have a link to that magazine but if someone is so inclined they could look it up.

I notice that some, not all, of their articles supported Mormon theology so it made me skeptical.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ulrich von hutten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2009 at 20:08
Yes, i know that several Americans are on the Minoan Lines every summer, but the other way round?
What kind of magazine is it?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2009 at 20:30
Originally posted by ulrich von hutten

Yes, i know that several Americans are on the Minoan Lines every summer, but the other way round?
What kind of magazine is it?


good one!! I have also been on the Minoan lines when I was in Greece.
It is a so-called archaeological magazine that claims that European or even Egytians were in America. I do not discount this possibility but by looking at the magazine you can see that some of the articles follow or help support Mormon beliefs and I wonder who really publishes it. Some of the articles are good and legate and some i think are bogus.

My mistake - the magazine is titled "Ancient America" and here is their link:
http://ancientamerican.com/


Edited by eaglecap - 16-Jan-2009 at 20:33
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Otto Von Bismarck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2009 at 04:34
I have to agree with Eagle here; the magazine sounds nothing more than just Mormon propaganda.

Anyway, I do believe that some Europeans probably managed to get to America in ancient times, but definitely much farther back in time than the Minoans; probably during the Ice Age, when water levels were lower.

I do believe I saw on TV once that they found artifacts on the east coast that correlated with other European artifacts.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2009 at 04:37
Oh Lord!!! Lamanites once again!!
 


Edited by pinguin - 23-Jan-2009 at 04:40
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Post Options Post Options   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2009 at 21:55
Originally posted by Otto Von Bismarck

I have to agree with Eagle here; the magazine sounds nothing more than just Mormon propaganda.Anyway, I do believe that some Europeans probably managed to get to America in ancient times, but definitely much farther back in time than the Minoans; probably during the Ice Age, when water levels were lower.I do believe I saw on TV once that they found artifacts on the east coast that correlated with other European artifacts.


I agree that Old world people knew about the Americas long before 1492 but somehow this information was lost. Most of the archaeological evidence is scratchy and unproven. I have seen some articles in this magazine which are legitimate but others are bogus. I have been to many museums both in Euope, Asia Minor, and North America and looking at their co-called archaeological finds- one word- BOGUS!!! The story about the copper mines on Isle Royal I have heard from other sources so I am open to that theory- Minoans. They were seafaring people but even there the evidence is inconclusive. BC America is an interesting book but still unproven.

The Irish had tales about a green and forested land beyond the sea but I cannot recall the source of that information. It might have been "BC America" but ?????

I prefer to veer from any Mormon argument becasue if they believe this then it is their right in a free society.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2009 at 11:50
Of course there were in Europe some information about "Lands beyond Thule"... They came from the Norse that established in Greenland, and that ocassionally contacted New Foundland. That information filtered by drops to the rest of Europe, and it is almost certain Columbus knew something about it.
 
Before 1000 AD, however, there was no idea of any land beyond the Atlantic, but only on the imagination of some people. Particularly after the Greeks realized the world was round and calculated the size of it, during Alexandrian times, there was people that speculated about "unknown lands", but it was nothing but speculation.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2009 at 18:16
Originally posted by pinguin

Of course there were in Europe some information about "Lands beyond Thule"... They came from the Norse that established in Greenland, and that ocassionally contacted New Foundland. That information filtered by drops to the rest of Europe, and it is almost certain Columbus knew something about it.
 

Before 1000 AD, however, there was no idea of any land beyond the Atlantic, but only on the imagination of some people. Particularly after the Greeks realized the world was round and calculated the size of it, during Alexandrian times, there was people that speculated about "unknown lands", but it was nothing but speculation.



I agree a lot of this is "Ify." I know the Smithonian Society clamed some viking artifacts found in Minnesota were forgeries. Later, they were proven wrong because of the age of the lichen found on the stone carvings. But, bottom line it went against their current theories about the Vikings arrival in N. America. They were not supposed to have made it that far inland according to their theories. The point is even if conclusive evidence is found about Europeans in America, prior to Columbus, there are some who would still reject it because it does not fit their theories.

Although, most of the material in that magazine is false. It is a mixture of true and lies I think.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2009 at 17:26
Last night I was looking at the Amerind Foundation Museum booklet which has numerous pictures of pottery from the Hohokham, Mogollon and Anasazi pottery, different periods. I observed one from the dragoon mountain area - red on brown jar-and noticed some interesting geometric spirals. I have seen those spirals before since I have spent a lot of time in museums both in Europe and the USA. I looked at an old book from an exhibit that had been in New York a number of years ago titled "Greek Art of the Aegean Islands." I looked through this book and found examples of the same exact spirals on early Cycladic art.

Sad, I cannot get pic to give examples unless I use my digital camera

Now, this does not prove that the civilizations we call Cycladic or Minoan came to America but who knows-????

I also found the key of life on the Amerind pottery- Hohokham. This symbol is even common amongst modern Greeks.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2009 at 18:50

Eaglecap. There are many more similar patter in native arts with european, indian and asian art than that. You have to watch out for superficial similarities in patterns, which aren't proof of contact at all. In native art of the americas you find crosses, and even scenes of people carrying crosses. You find swasticas, greek patterns, naturalistic art in frescos, abstract art, etc. Even more, there are thousand of things in arts and technology that developed in parallel. Mayas for instance invented not only the zero but also discovered the golden number. And you would be amazed to see that ancient peruvians had air presure toys as Vitruvious, only peruvians invented them early. Peruvians also had burning mirrors like archimedes.

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2009 at 18:53
Those things are hoax. I happened to meet an author of a book claiming such things once. He presented things enclosed in a nice way, in order to end up in a theory where all ancient civilizations came from America.

He tryed to convince me, that the "real" Troy was hidden somewhere in America. Some inscriptions of people descending from the real Troad and other evidence, made him to run away without even commenting. LOL


Edited by Flipper - 30-Jan-2009 at 18:54


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Post Options Post Options   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2009 at 20:24
Originally posted by pinguin

Eaglecap. There are many more similar patter in native arts with european, indian and asian art than that. You have to watch out for superficial similarities in patterns, which aren't proof of contact at all. In native art of the americas you find crosses, and even scenes of people carrying crosses. You find swasticas, greek patterns, naturalistic art in frescos, abstract art, etc. Even more, there are thousand of things in arts and technology that developed in parallel. Mayas for instance invented not only the zero but also discovered the golden number. And you would be amazed to see that ancient peruvians had air presure toys as Vitruvious, only peruvians invented them early. Peruvians also had burning mirrors like archimedes.


 


 



Piguin- I really tend to agree with you and I have seen these others both on Greek and Native American pottery. I was only giving some off-hand examples. Although, I am not totally closed minded to the possibility of old world contact, just have not seen enough proof. There were people who once discounted the Viking exploration of North America not too long ago, things have changed.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2009 at 20:30
Originally posted by Flipper


Those things are hoax. I happened to meet an author of a book claiming such things once. He presented things enclosed in a nice way, in order to end up in a theory where all ancient civilizations came from America. He tryed to convince me, that the "real" Troy was hidden somewhere in America. Some inscriptions of people descending from the real Troad and other evidence, made him to run away without even commenting. LOL



flipper - I tend to agree a lot with you. A lot of what I have seen from magazines like Ancient America are a hoax. I have been to a lot of museums and even I can tell the photos they show of these so-called artifacts are a hoax. But, the artifacts I talked about were real artifacts from museums in Greece and the USA. I just think the similarity is interesting but like I said to piguin I am not totaly closed to such an idea. Evidence disspears fast so really it is hard to prove or disprove; very subjective!!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2009 at 17:18
Well under unique situations a ship could end up in the other side. Ships did dissappear as always and nobody new what happened. If any people landed in the Americas, o think they did understand what happened...That they made a very large trip of no return. So probably noone learned about the new continent. Even if this happened, they did not discover america first and as i said it could happen only under unique conditions. 


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Post Options Post Options   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2009 at 20:11
Originally posted by Flipper

Well under unique situations a ship could end up in the other side. Ships did dissappear as always and nobody new what happened. If any people landed in the Americas, o think they did understand what happened...That they made a very large trip of no return. So probably noone learned about the new continent. Even if this happened, they did not discover america first and as i said it could happen only under unique conditions. 


I think you are right and if you have ever read "Conquest of Gaul" by Julius Caesar then you have read about the Celtic ships, on the Brittany coast, with their high prows which relied on wind vs. the Roman gallies which largely depended on oars and were coast huggers. I have read some articles and some believe these ships built by the Celts were capable of trans-Atlantic crossing, accidently or on purpose-??? If a modern man can cross from North America to Europe in a boat the size of a bath tub then why couldn't they Celts have done the same thing? I see do not see conclusive proof yet but I am open. The Minoans were a maritime culture and it was their mighty navy which acted as a wall of protection, since most of their cities were not walled. If they had known about the land, we call the Americas, their records could have been destroyed after the eruption of Thera and the Mycenaean conquest. We know Linear A has not been deciphered so if it is not just itemized list of things like Linear B then maybe it could reveal such information to us about the land on the other side of the great sea. I hope someone deciphers it someday!! Maybe it might be someone on A&E --

This is interesting!


Edited by eaglecap - 05-Feb-2009 at 20:14
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2009 at 20:43

Ancient minoans in the Americas... what a wild fantasy. If it had happened we should had some records. Even after Thera exploded most civilization still survived... In the Americas there is no contact whatsoever of Europeans arriving to the Americas before Leif Ericsson.

However, there is evidence of Inuits arriving to Europe. We should better star by that...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2009 at 22:40
Originally posted by pinguin

Ancient minoans in the Americas... what a wild fantasy. If it had happened we should had some records. Even after Thera exploded most civilization still survived... In the Americas there is no contact whatsoever of Europeans arriving to the Americas before Leif Ericsson.


However, there is evidence of Inuits arriving to Europe. We should better star by that...



I think we all agreed the evidence is inconclusive but I am always open to it; if I can be shown proof. Actually, after Thera erupted the Minoans (archaeological term) civilization did collaspe, invaded by the Greeks
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2009 at 23:00
It is not inconclusive. Believing that Europeans (or Africans) came to the Americas before Leif Ericsson is like to believe in Santa Claus, people abducted by UFOs or the Second comming of Christ! There always will be people who believe on those things. However, there is not evidence whatosever to start to believe those contacts ever happened.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2009 at 04:08

Originally posted by eaglecap

I think you are right and if you have ever read "Conquest of Gaul" by Julius Caesar then you have read about the Celtic ships, on the Brittany coast, with their high prows which relied on wind vs. the Roman gallies which largely depended on oars and were coast huggers. I have read some articles and some believe these ships built by the Celts were capable of trans-Atlantic crossing, accidently or on purpose-???

These were the Veneti.

The ships Caesar describes are obviously much more suited to the North Sea than Meditteranean galleys were, but whether they were suited to an Atlantic crossing or not is dubious. It's implausible that the Veneti were designing ships to make crossings.  They were first and foremost traders, and if they had such rare commodities as they could get in the Americas, they would have been selling them all over Europe. Romans would certainly know about any unusual goods they were peddling, and Caesar wouldn't have failed to make note of it.

The Veneti vessels did have high gunwales and were equipped with sails, but that doesn't mean they weren't coasters - in the 10th century, the same region produced another type of sailing ship with high gunwales, the cog. Cogs were (until the 13th century or so) coasters and certainly were not capable of transoceanic voyages.

If a modern man can cross from North America to Europe in a boat the size of a bath tub then why couldn't they Celts have done the same thing?

Could and did are two different things. Technically speaking, a Celt could have walked to Thailand, bought or built a watercraft, crossed over to New Guinea, blown to Australia during a storm, and been the first European to discover it. It doesn't mean it happened. 

Also, alot of these modern 'boats the size of a bathtub' are far more seaworthy than ancient ships. Many of them are kayaks, which are built to be able to capsize and then right themselves again with no harm done.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2009 at 10:44

Good point. The kayaks of inuits are a lot more advanced that most of the bath tubs used by ancient Mediterranean and European peoples. In navigation, the Western civilization wasn't precisely the top one of the world, before the 15th century.

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