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Forum LockedMinoan civilization originated in Anatolia!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Dec-2008 at 21:48
Actually for both Mycenean and Hittite their IE appartenance virtually did not exist as a theory before they were proven to be so (unless one would call fantasies like Stawell's theories) and became also mainstream theories once the evidence was undeniable.
 
Moreover, neither for Mycenean nor for Hittite there was no 'Rosetta stone', in both cases it was a hard work based on a large body of texts. As I'm sure you know, similar hard work on Linear A or other pre-Greek written languages yielded no results (we're largely unable to read those texts).
 
When the North-Caucasian feature of pre-Greek will be proven, I'm sure there will be some putting the evidence forward (and hopefully scripts like Linear A deciphered). And if one believes "linguists are conservative" I wonder what he'll say if he'd be a mathematician or physicist  Wink 
 
Moreover, I wouldn't qualify those "not hunting" they go for the easy way. Actually I'd say quite on the contrary, some people work a lifetime to assemble the knowledge of an ancient language in lexicons and grammar instruments (not to mention a proper reading of all those authors and inscriptions), while others come cherrypicking from the works of the former to find similarities between Scythian and Saxon, pre-Greek and Hurrian, Sumerian and Etruscan, and so on. I honestly believe it's much more work to get a proper understanding of aisymne^te^r/aisye^te^r (and all the derived terms) in Greek than to link one word of these with another language, Hurrian or any other.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pablito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2008 at 00:25
First of all, I really appreciate your article, also your criticism, in this Forum. Clap
Plus, if I wrote about a PNC(aucasian) - PreGreek possible link, there is a reason. Some scholars supervised continuosly my research paper, and two Universities invite me to pubblish it. Also, I collect a lot of critics, addenda et corrigenda, suggestions, any improvement, etc....... from them.
Main problem is: Classicists are very good in their own discipline, as well they do no take a risk if they do not have competence; conversely, Caucasologist lack in way round (an exception is Kevin Tuite and V. Ivanov); so, it is not easy
 " married " Classics and PNCaucasian, it is very hard work. Moreover, as you know, IF you do not have good stuff to show them, scholars rejected it all the work you carried out. Mind ! I use "Classics" in wide sense, that include "Ancient", "Oriental" and "Classics [=Greek-Roman] proper" (some Uni. put those discipline together or separate, it depends)
.
About "...... I wonder what he'll say if he'd be a mathematician or physicist." Yes, it is. You perfectly matched who is say that.
Once again, thanks !

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2008 at 02:13
Good luck with your work then. If you'll be able to put up a good theory of a Hurrian substratum in Greek I'm sure many will appreciate it, especially if it rests on solid evidence.
 
Anyway, are you familiar with a Hurrologist (or how do you call these guys?) named Bjarte Kaldhol? He posted in some mailing-lists some time ago (perhaps he still does), and  he claimed the following:
- Hurrian is not a Caucasian language
- the only language that might be genetically related to the language behind Linear A is Hurrian
- he identified some Hurrian names in Linear A (well, perhaps identification it's an outstrech, let's say he provided some comparisions to be taken cum grano salis)
- another interesting claim of his, but not really related to this thread, is that the presence of Indo-Aryan languages in Mitanni kingdom was exaggerated
 


Edited by Chilbudios - 28-Dec-2008 at 02:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pablito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2008 at 23:35
Instead  'Hurrianologist', 'hurrianist' is preferred. In my research paper I choose Levantine as well as   Hurro-Urartian (or H-U). About Bjarte, I am sorry mate, I have no idea.
What Starostin wrote down on Hurro-Urartian (as Eastern Cauc. Lang.), I re-start his work in new light; so, there is something good and something bad, it is too early to say 'YES' or 'NO'.
In my point of view, Pre-Greek offer a chance for a real link between Hurrian (or H-U) and PNCauc.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 10:32
I see the discussion has reached in a fair end, under the time i've been gone.

About the conservatie linguists, Pablito, it is not strange at all. Every year a new "groundbraking linguist" appears who claims he has solved the mysteries of the ancient world. In another thread CiegaSordomuda posted a paper of a hungarian (?) guy who refferenced Wikander in order to support a connection of Hungarian with some native american language, but the problem is that Wikander never wrote about Hungarian nor native american. I know this because simply i'm one of his readers. But that was just 1 thing that fell accidentaly to my attention. Imagine how many hoaxes are out there. It is understandable to be a skeptic in linguistics. Even in well known languages, there is some form of skepticism.

In any case, I agree with Chibuldios that solid evidence has to be shown. In our case, you have 2 or 3 theories in Linear A, where proffessionals suggest that eteo-Cretan is an early form of proto-Ionian. However, I didn't even bother to mention this here because there's no solid evidence...If proto-Ionian is true then there would not be 3 different translations of the same texts would it? Ofcourse not...Therefore the possibilities of proto-Ionian fall below the level needed for my support.

Also, I'm pretty sure the pre-Greek language sphere is assembled by more than one language, like Chilbudios said. The possibility that those languages are closely related is high, but still i believe there's a difference in the language spoken in Sesklo, Dispilio and the language spoken in Argissa and the Cyclades. When I see the Aeolian inscriptions of Thessaly and then read some Arcadian inscriptions from Peloponese, it is not difficult to make a wild guess that there were completely different elements in both areas that formed those two distant versions of Greek. Maybe the mello-Greek Arcadians spoke a completely different pre-Greek language than the Thessalians of Pelasgiotis. I guess you get my point.

In any case Pablito, good luck with your work. A suggestion from me would be not to get into fast assumptions like "Greek contains 40% non IE words". Yes, there are non IE words in Greek like "Alifo" (i smear, probably semitic), but before you label various words make sure you ask someone that has some knownledge on Greek. Not just standard Greek, but also archaic and the various dialects.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pablito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 20:30
Flipper, where are you being ?  Hawaii ? (I just kidding)
Anyway, I appreciate your post, even more, I deeply agree about ".......
make sure you ask someone that has some knownledge on Greek........."; of course I do, every week my research paper is supervised by specialists or who has great knowledge on Greek language. I keep busy 5 Prof./ PhD/ Doct. for this reason.
If I show [to scholars] a "Harry Potter theory", I am sure, after a big laugh I can not go further than.
Let me write in this forum. When I tried
Pre-Greek                                 PNC
a- / ai-                        >             * 0- [zero]
word by word it happened 30 times, I do not think is (just) a coincidence.
About Korwa ~ Korybantes ~ Kore^ et sim., as you posted on 23-IV-2006 and  it means 'young (girl / boy)', please, checked in:
starling.rinet.ru       > NorthCaucasian    > [ write down] kwarnV      'young (of an animal)'.
So, the original meaning was 'young [in general]'. Similar semantic sense it exist even in my dialect. A heifer is cold sorana, a compound word for sor-           an- (=annus)           a                
                                                'above'       '1- year-old'              'Female'
                                                'Female calf above 1 year'; generally 2 or 3-years-old
(In slang: "stupid cow" is referred to a woman)
Mind! Labialized consonant could be interchanged, so :* kwa- > * kaw- > * ko-. Haspelmath (A grammar of Lezgian), Beekes (as I mentioned previously) and me, we saw the same feature.
Plus, I agree with you and Chilbudios that Pre-Greek people absorbed some words from Semitic (Akkadian and / or Hebrew/Phoenician and/or Egyptian).
Happy New Year.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 22:39
Originally posted by Pablito Pablito wrote:

Flipper, where are you being ?  Hawaii ? (I just kidding)
Anyway, I appreciate your post, even more, I deeply agree about ".......
make sure you ask someone that has some knownledge on Greek........."; of course I do, every week my research paper is supervised by specialists or who has great knowledge on Greek language. I keep busy 5 Prof./ PhD/ Doct. for this reason.
If I show [to scholars] a "Harry Potter theory", I am sure, after a big laugh I can not go further than.
Let me write in this forum. When I tried
Pre-Greek                                 PNC
a- / ai-                        >             * 0- [zero]
word by word it happened 30 times, I do not think is (just) a coincidence.
About Korwa ~ Korybantes ~ Kore^ et sim., as you posted on 23-IV-2006 and  it means 'young (girl / boy)', please, checked in:
starling.rinet.ru       > NorthCaucasian    > [ write down] kwarnV      'young (of an animal)'.
So, the original meaning was 'young [in general]'. Similar semantic sense it exist even in my dialect. A heifer is cold sorana, a compound word for sor-           an- (=annus)           a                
                                                'above'       '1- year-old'              'Female'
                                                'Female calf above 1 year'; generally 2 or 3-years-old
(In slang: "stupid cow" is referred to a woman)
Mind! Labialized consonant could be interchanged, so :* kwa- > * kaw- > * ko-. Haspelmath (A grammar of Lezgian), Beekes (as I mentioned previously) and me, we saw the same feature.
Plus, I agree with you and Chilbudios that Pre-Greek people absorbed some words from Semitic (Akkadian and / or Hebrew/Phoenician and/or Egyptian).
Happy New Year.


Nah, i'm in Sweden for two weeks now. Have a different schedule than usual, that's why it takes me ages to login. Smile

Now for korwa/kore/kory etc, the explanation does not need any other consonants that are added or removed. Koros/Kouros and Kore in Greek is son and daughter respectively and are related to the verb "koreso" which means "to raise" or "to satisfy".

In latin you have "creo" (compare to koreso) which is "to create".

So, from what i can see it is more likely to be connected to something you raise (and that gives you satisfaction) or create/give birth to. I can't speak 10 languages but i'm pretty sure that you will find something similar in other IE languages like Armenian, Albanian etc. I think son in armenian cognates to it but i can't verify it.

Note however that in Crete another form has survived instead of koros/kore/korwa so generally this would not be a good example. Wink My example was about Cypriot vs Pamphylian and Pamphylian is nothing else than Greek probably mixed with Luwian offsprings and Phrygian.



Edited by Flipper - 29-Dec-2008 at 22:54


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pablito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 23:36
Flipper,  I check in C. D. Buck Dict., [Korwa et sim.] it is exactly as you post; but, from  R. A. Brown and R. S. P. Beekes still some doubt.
It is  odd; so, I abstain from.
Usually scholars, when they found two or more correct answers, they 'keep the door open' for any incoming solution, alternatively they use this [magic] word: 'Wanderwört'.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2008 at 01:58
Pablito, when you'll have time can you detail more on that pre-Greek a/ai vs Hurrian zero?
 
There are several things which look cheesy to me:
1) Why is it this alternance and also why is it an a/ai alternance? Was the original form with iota or without (and how that came into being)? What was the function of that a/ai and, if you know, what are the possible reasons for its occurence? (e.g. prothetic vowels usually have some strict rules for occurences and sometimes also known justifications; the same goes for aphesis)? Does the a/ai group occur before any consonant or just before some of them?
2) How do you know your chosen Greek word is archaic and what was its archaic form? E.g. you picked aisye^te^r but I have found no answer whether the original pre-Greek form had a "mn" in it (like in aisymnao^, Beekes gives this form as pre-Greek!), which would make the comparision with Hurrian even more difficult.
3) This begs another question: when you picked a word like akhyron have you consider "kh" a fricative? IIRC this pronounciation exists roughly since the Hellenistic age, before that it was "k+h". Granted, you could say that a pre-Greek k-sounding fricative could be rendered through a k+h. But that would add another assumption. The longer the chain of assumptions, the less probable the outcome.
It should be noted also that proto-Greek sounds are sometimes different from what we can find in books on Ancient or Modern Greek. Such studies should consider the proto-Greek words not on Ancient or Modern Greek ones.
3) Your comparisions (even the recent one on korwa) seem focused on the consonantic skeleton and do not explain the vowel changes.
4) The semantical differences are sometimes not trivial. aisye^te^r means "prince" but I found no hint in Greek that this word could mean "height" or even "mighty". There are plenty of languages where the word "prince" is not etymologically related to "height" or "mightiness" (even prince < princeps).
 
30+ such comparisions look to me as coincidence. Mark Rosenfelder proved that one can easily find 100+ such comparisions between two unrelated languages (it depends also on how laxe are the phonetic correspondences or the semantic range chosen for finding matches)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2008 at 09:55
Well, Pablito you're comparing IE with North caucasian, not with Korean so it is not like it is impossible to find explanations matching each other. Smile

In any case, I didn't grasp that a/ai and 0 eather. If you don't mind, please explain.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pablito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2008 at 00:34
"Well, Pablito you're comparing IE with North caucasian........"
Not really. I compare unetymologized IE words might be linked with PNCauc. My attention is focussed on Pre-Greek language, the question  is : Is Pre-Greek close to Hurro-Urartian and / or PNCauc ?
At the moment, I am concentrated in 'regular phonological rule' and common lexical root.
"
In any case, I didn't grasp that a/ai and 0 eather. If you don't mind, please explain.".
My pleasure. All the time a Pre-Greek word begun with a- or ai-, the same word it appears in PNC without a- or ai-;
e.g: Pre-Greek atte^gos (Eust says atte^gos was used by certain Ionians; Arnobius 5, 6 calls the word attagus 'hircus' Phrygian. So probably an Anatolian loan) 'he-goat', compared to Tzesi (or Dido), Ginukh and Khwarshi t'eka, Bezhta and Gunzib t'iga  (and some other Cauc. Lang.) 'he-goat'; I presume in Tzesi, Ginukh, etc.....the original word was * at(t)Vka or  * at(t)Vga [-V-  stands for Vowel]. Another question rising: Is a- / ai- a protethic vowel or it had had grammatical function ? My answer is: Further investigation needed.
Until now it happened  30 times.
[in Bold Cauc. Lang. name, like French, German, Danish, etc....]
Goccha ?
Something (phonologically) similar exist among Romance Languages:
Spanish                        French                                              Italian
estado                         etat                                                   Stato                             'State, country, nation'
escola                          ecole                                                 Scuola                          'school'
escribar                        ecrir                                                   scrivere                        '(to) write
Why French and Sapnish has e- and Italian (and Latin)  not ?  The answer is : By grammar.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2008 at 11:07
Originally posted by Pablito Pablito wrote:

"Well, Pablito you're comparing IE with North caucasian........"
Not really. I compare unetymologized IE words might be linked with PNCauc. My attention is focussed on Pre-Greek language, the question  is : Is Pre-Greek close to Hurro-Urartian and / or PNCauc ?
At the moment, I am concentrated in 'regular phonological rule' and common lexical root.
"
In any case, I didn't grasp that a/ai and 0 eather. If you don't mind, please explain.".
My pleasure. All the time a Pre-Greek word begun with a- or ai-, the same word it appears in PNC without a- or ai-;
e.g: Pre-Greek atte^gos (Eust says atte^gos was used by certain Ionians; Arnobius 5, 6 calls the word attagus 'hircus' Phrygian. So probably an Anatolian loan) 'he-goat', compared to Tzesi (or Dido), Ginukh and Khwarshi t'eka, Bezhta and Gunzib t'iga  (and some other Cauc. Lang.) 'he-goat'; I presume in Tzesi, Ginukh, etc.....the original word was * at(t)Vka or  * at(t)Vga [-V-  stands for Vowel]. Another question rising: Is a- / ai- a protethic vowel or it had had grammatical function ? My answer is: Further investigation needed.
Until now it happened  30 times.
[in Bold Cauc. Lang. name, like French, German, Danish, etc....]
Goccha ?
Something (phonologically) similar exist among Romance Languages:
Spanish                        French                                              Italian
estado                         etat                                                   Stato                             'State, country, nation'
escola                          ecole                                                 Scuola                          'school'
escribar                        ecrir                                                   scrivere                        '(to) write
Why French and Sapnish has e- and Italian (and Latin)  not ?  The answer is : By grammar.


Pablito, sorry it was wrong expression used by me. My point is that north caucasian people and early indoeuropeans are not so distant geographically, so some common words shouldn't be such a great mystery.

As for the a/ai, i'm sorry but i can't see how attegos could be compared with Tzesi and Ginukh to form the original word attVka. Maybe the specific example is far fetched?

Also, the fact that Phrygian and Greek share it, means that the word has most probably its origins in northern Greece. I would not be suprised if that specific word appears in some form in Thracian.

Note that aigos (alt. agos) is the word for goat. In Armenian it is ayg. In later Greek the "he-goat" is called tragos. I think that what happened is that the Ionians, simply used the anatolian prefix atta (father in Hittite, Luwian, Lydian etc) and added it to agos, att(a)agos (father of the goats). In koine greek, the dental double-t became tr- and the first a- was dropped.

In Thracian the goat is aiz- and that links it further with Iranian azak which links it further with indian aja which means "he-goat".

From all these, I don't think there's any chance at all that attagos/attegos is not IE.

Sometimes, it is easy like that. I think you should avoid words ending with -os, -sso, -ssa. If Phrygian and Thracian appear in the picture, then simply stay away. I think you should go after rare (in IE) combinations of consonants like sph-, -nth-, phth-, -ks, pt-, ghd- etc if you seek for a possible pre-greek language that is not related to IE-anatolia or the balkans. 

I would also suggest you find a digital greek dictionary, that will show you all the forms of a word, from Mycenaean Greek - to archaic - to classical - to koine and its developements in northern, southern and eastern greek dialects. That's the only way i believe you would safely verify, that a hypothesis has a safe ground. It would also help you locate the word chronologically (the older the safer) and geographically (Aeolic forms give answers to many problems). For example, pre-Greek words that appear in the islands of Kalymnos and Nisyros, should be simply skipped, since we know the inhabitants were originally Carians. Word maps, have helped me alot when i'm working with etymologies.

Do you have some list of other words you suspect falling to the group of a/ai?




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CiegaSordomud Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2009 at 00:58

Quote In koine greek, the dental double-t became tr- and the first a- was dropped.

Im not sure why the a- would be dropped. A better explanation might come from a compound with another related term for goat. In this case I find a connection with dára (can also be read as tarah) that means wild goat in Sumerian. This term was common in northern Mesopotamia and could have spread into Anatolia.

Quote In Thracian the goat is aiz- and that links it further with Iranian azak which links it further with indian aja which means "he-goat".

Interestingly enough the word for she-goat in Sumerian is üz-ud. A parallel is also seen in Hebrew Azazel, the first scapegoat.



Edited by CiegaSordomud - 03-Jan-2009 at 01:09
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pablito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2009 at 00:36
A possible explanation of  Pre-Greek a- / ai- vs PNC & Hurrian *0- is: Eastern Cauc. Lang. have class marker, there is a great dispute wherever this class marker are added recently or lost in Western Cauc. Lang.. Pre-Greek may be confirmed one point of view.
How do you know your chose.......
Furnee first, Beekes subsequently, they take off from Hesychius glosses. LSJ [Liddel-Scott-Jones] give us all rilevant informations when/where it appears. Anyway, in Linear A  'NI/ fici [=figs]' it means nikuleon 'a kind of fig' by Hesychius glosses. So, it is rilevant for words we can (probably) traced in Pre-Greek or Minoan language; also Linear B is supportive.
As O. Carruba told me years ago, ja.sa.sa.ra. is a goddess name, as it appears several time in stone libation formula, is  with verbal root  u.na.-, (in my point of view) strictly connected with Hurrian un-, Urartian nun- 'to come' , PNC *=V?wVn 'to go / to come' (and possibly Hattic nu- 'to come, to go, to bear)'.
So: ............. goddess name ....... to go................; I guess, a typical inscr. is : "[This present / gift] go to jasasara goddess......" or smth similar
[Note: * -?- is a glottal stop].
Very slowly, 4- 5,000 years of lost language, does it seems to me to re-emerging from darkness. Be patient ! It is a giant, huge, massive jigsaw to traced back !
My 'prince / height' has a noun root without -n, as Chechen has an OBL. form in -n. About semantic, three scholars said "it sounds good" as in Greek (IE) oi megaloi.

To the point 3) and 4) you do  not need my reply, you already did a correct answer 
Clap . Very clever. Compliments !

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jan-2009 at 21:52
The prothesis in Romance language is rather regular and it's not so much caused by grammar but by phonetics and phonology and perhaps morphology. The pronounciation of the initial cluster s+voiceless stop (p, t, k) was a problematic one in Latin and remained so in many Romance languages. The s in this cluster was often attempted to be separated in a syllabe of its own. The reason why the prothesis affected mostly Western Romance languages is that in languages like Old Italian and Old Romanian the words were more likely to end in a vowel.
 
This analogy with Romance prothesis rather shows the Greek a/ai vs Hurrian zero theory rather improbable, as no similar justification can be found, nor similar regularity (the examples provided so far start - in Greek - with aisy-, akhy- and att-).
 
What is the grammatical class behind "height", "straw" and "he-goat" (and whatever other examples)? I can see they are nouns, what else? But more important, what other languages use this class? (constructed by prefixing an "a" or an "ai" to a given root?).
 
I can see that Beekes works with the "mn" form, you chose the form without it, but which is more archaic and how do you know?
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CiegaSordomud Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jan-2009 at 00:07
If there was a Greek a/ai that preceeded certain Hurrian related words that did not start with vowels, the usual explanation would come from the fact that the Hurrian definite article is placed at the end of a noun. This is incompatible with the earliest Greek language, so they adopted the Hurrian -na into a- as a prefix.


Edited by CiegaSordomud - 07-Jan-2009 at 00:10
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jan-2009 at 00:50
Originally posted by CiegaSordomud CiegaSordomud wrote:

If there was a Greek a/ai that preceeded certain Hurrian related words that did not start with vowels, the usual explanation would come from the fact that the Hurrian definite article is placed at the end of a noun. This is incompatible with the earliest Greek language, so they adopted the Hurrian -na into a- as a prefix.
There are at least three issues with this.
1) There are two unexplained sounds. A Hurrian "n" missing and Greek "i" extra.
2) There is no given rule. When Greeks adopted this alleged prefix?
3) The Hurrian enclitic article is -na- only in plural, otherwise is zero or -ne-. Also in the chain of agglutinated morphemes following the noun, the article in Hurrian comes first, then the case endings. As such, this would imply that Greeks borrowed from this alleged Hurrian substratum only nouns in absolutive plural. If that would make sense for a noun like "straw" (though a question would still remain why absolutive and not ergative?), it makes no sense for a noun like "height".
 
Anyway, why Hurrian is assumed to be a substratum for Greek as a premise? One should present some convincing evidence, and then move on to build a hypothesis to explain it. And when a hypothesis is not confirmed by facts, we should disregard it.


Edited by Chilbudios - 07-Jan-2009 at 00:58
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aaron1981 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jan-2009 at 18:35
Didn't this study reveal significant amount of Italic similar R1b?
As we know with most recent information that R1b came out of Anatolia and some tribes passed through and remained in Greece, as well as some others going into the near East...
 
If anything, considering Greek is *still* considered a Centum branch Indo-European language that R1b is present in the more ancient and remote areas of Greece. Again, I am no expert, just using some linguistic and genetic hypothesis to back up the statement...

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aaron1981 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jan-2009 at 18:52

Not sure if this is the original article that the thread was regarding, but here is another.

R1b1b2a1a2 - Germanic British Isles centered
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2009 at 17:28
There are also some other issues.

1) Hurrians appear around 2500BC, while Crete already had a civilization running for at least 1500 years back.

2) Neolithic civilizations, existed in Greece way before that time with examples like Sesklo (6000 BC), the lake cultures of the north (5000 BC), Dimini (4500 BC), Argissa-Magoula (4000BC) etc. Sesklo is what you call a typical Greek city in it's primitive form (Acropolis based). I believe those early cultures are the backbone to what formed a later Greek language.

3) Renfrew, proposed that the "mello-GrecoPhrygian"* substance arrived in Thessaly and Northern Greece from anatolia around 6000 BC.

4) Ivanov agrees with the views that trace hurrian related words in Greek,  but he sees them as borrowings that came through Lydians, Luwians and other anatolian people, not hurrians themselves.


So, what we have here is a) an incompatible timeframe, b) pre-existing civilizations older than Hurrian already living in the Helladic area, c) a larger amount of IE languages that share similar words and can't be connected only with a Hurrian-Greek connection. When centrum and satem languages like Phrygian, Greek, Armenian, Persian, Sanskrit, Thracian share same words, then it is unlikely, those words are from an agglucative language instead of Indoeuropean.



*mello-GrecoPhrygian is the term i use, for the earliest inhabitants of the Helladic area that participated in clash of cultures, that later formed the first Greek and Phrygian speaking people.


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