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    Posted: 21-Jan-2007 at 11:57

Was Lithuania greatest Eastern Europe county in Medieval ages? Why Lithuania colapsed?


Edited by Bielas - 21-Jan-2007 at 11:58
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2007 at 12:30
I have never heard of Lithuanian control over Hungary (which this map suggests, as I see it) so I consider it quite wierd. Even during the later dates, Poland did not control Hungary so I am sure that Lithuania didn't do so as well.

Now, about the greatness, I agree that during the 14th century, Lithuania might have been quite magnificent but with the growing Polish power, I consider them to be greater... and after Lublin there was no separate Lithuania at all.

And this map suggests that the state of Lithuania had direct control over Ukraine, which it didn't have (I am pretty confident) during the most of the time, except some years (decades) after the original conquests of these lands. After all, it were the Polish crown that united them all in the end.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bielas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2007 at 12:53

On the other hand Lithuanians stopped Mongolian invasion to Europe in the battle of 'blue waters' ( as we call it). But the main thing why Lithuania was getting weaker and everyone forgot it, was having too many enemies: German order on he west, Livonian order on the north (later Sweden), Russians on the east and Mongolians on the south (later Turks ).

In my opinion union of Liublin was just a paper. Lithuanians and Poles were separate nations with separate enemies. Both sides ran their politics, just had same king. I think Liublin was the same as Molotov and Ribentrop's pact 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Soloviev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2007 at 12:55
Originally posted by rider rider wrote:

I have never heard of Lithuanian control over Hungary (which this map suggests, as I see it) so I consider it quite wierd. Even during the later dates, Poland did not control Hungary so I am sure that Lithuania didn't do so as well.

Now, about the greatness, I agree that during the 14th century, Lithuania might have been quite magnificent but with the growing Polish power, I consider them to be greater... and after Lublin there was no separate Lithuania at all.

And this map suggests that the state of Lithuania had direct control over Ukraine, which it didn't have (I am pretty confident) during the most of the time, except some years (decades) after the original conquests of these lands. After all, it were the Polish crown that united them all in the end.
 
This sound reasonable. This map, however, reflects the time in the 15th century or later, becuase in the 14th century there was no Ottoman Empire under Hungary, but the Empire of Serbs and Greeks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bielas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2007 at 12:57
Originally posted by Soloviev Soloviev wrote:

Originally posted by rider rider wrote:

I have never heard of Lithuanian control over Hungary (which this map suggests, as I see it) so I consider it quite wierd. Even during the later dates, Poland did not control Hungary so I am sure that Lithuania didn't do so as well.

Now, about the greatness, I agree that during the 14th century, Lithuania might have been quite magnificent but with the growing Polish power, I consider them to be greater... and after Lublin there was no separate Lithuania at all.

And this map suggests that the state of Lithuania had direct control over Ukraine, which it didn't have (I am pretty confident) during the most of the time, except some years (decades) after the original conquests of these lands. After all, it were the Polish crown that united them all in the end.
 
This sound reasonable. This map, however, reflects the time in the 15th century or later, becuase in the 14th century there was no Ottoman Empire under Hungary, but the Empire of Serbs and Greeks.
Yes it's 15th century map, but the borders of Lithuania in the 14th century we the same
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Soloviev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2007 at 12:59
Thanks. I didn't know that. And I also didn't know that it was ever that big.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bielas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2007 at 13:05
Originally posted by Soloviev Soloviev wrote:

Thanks. I didn't know that. And I also didn't know that it was ever that big.
I'm just very in intersting why Lithuania's might is so forgotten. Even if Lithuania is the only country which occupied Moscow (in 14th century)


Edited by Bielas - 21-Jan-2007 at 13:06
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2007 at 13:44
Originally posted by rider rider wrote:

I have never heard of Lithuanian control over Hungary (which this map suggests, as I see it) so I consider it quite wierd.
 
Rider, this map shows borders of states ruled by Jagiellon (Lithuanian) dynasty in the last decades of 15th c.
 
 


Edited by ataman - 21-Jan-2007 at 13:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2007 at 13:53
Originally posted by Bielas Bielas wrote:

Yes it's 15th century map, but the borders of Lithuania in the 14th century we the same
 
Borders of Lithuania in 14th c. were changed very much. The territory of Lithuania increased in that century few hundred per cents.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2007 at 13:54
Oh, okay. I couldn't see that.

And for your information, Poles have taken Moscow too.

Originally posted by Bielas Bielas wrote:

On the other hand Lithuanians stopped Mongolian invasion to Europe in the battle of 'blue waters' ( as we call it). But the main thing why Lithuania was getting weaker and everyone forgot it, was having too many enemies: German order on he west, Livonian order on the north (later Sweden), Russians on the east and Mongolians on the south (later Turks ).


Well, I would disagree, before the joint kingdom was created the enemies would be categorized as:

west: Teutonic Order, Poland
south: Ottoman Empire
east: Russians, Mongols
north: Livonian Order (Sweden gained it's first territories in north long after the end of Medieval Ages, I think it was 1587, but not sure).

Lithuania lost it's might however because of the simple fact that it couldn't effectively govern such large lands. These lands however made Poland the greatest state in Europe.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2007 at 13:56


This would reflect the lands of Lithuania better...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2007 at 14:01
Originally posted by Soloviev Soloviev wrote:

Thanks. I didn't know that. And I also didn't know that it was ever that big.
 
Lithuania (but only Lithuania - I mean without other states ruled by Jagiellon dynasty) had the largest territory in the end of 15 th c. (about 0.885 mln km2)


Edited by ataman - 21-Jan-2007 at 14:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2007 at 14:07
Originally posted by rider rider wrote:



This would reflect the lands of Lithuania better...
 
Yes, this is a territory of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth in 1619. Livonia and Duchy of Courland were common territories of Lithuania and Poland.


Edited by ataman - 21-Jan-2007 at 15:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2007 at 14:10
Originally posted by Bielas Bielas wrote:

In my opinion union of Liublin was just a paper. Lithuanians and Poles were separate nations with separate enemies. Both sides ran their politics, just had same king. I think Liublin was the same as Molotov and Ribentrop's pact 
 
Oh well, so why Lithuanian army helped Poland so many times (and vice versa)? Why we had common parliament and 1 ruler?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2007 at 14:26
Originally posted by Bielas Bielas wrote:

Was Lithuania greatest Eastern Europe county in Medieval ages? Why Lithuania colapsed?

Well one can argue what did you mean with "greatest", but sure Lithuania managed to capitalise on weakened Rus principalities after Mongol invasion and by marriage and annexion expand to the Black Sea coasts.
Lithuania didn't collapsed, it just united with Poland after treaty of Lublin 1569 and forged new state Polish-Lithunian Commonwealth.
Originally posted by rider rider wrote:

And this map suggests that the state of Lithuania had direct control over Ukraine, which it didn't have (I am pretty confident) during the most of the time, except some years (decades) after the original conquests of these lands. After all, it were the Polish crown that united them all in the end.

Lithuania actually controled Ukraine (this name didn't existed back then), though whole south-eastern part was actually big wasteland (wild fields). Ukraine was ceded to Poland after treaty of Lublin.
Originally posted by Bielas Bielas wrote:

On the other hand Lithuanians stopped Mongolian invasion to Europe in the battle of 'blue waters' ( as we call it). But the main thing why Lithuania was getting weaker and everyone forgot it, was having too many enemies: German order on he west, Livonian order on the north (later Sweden), Russians on the east and Mongolians on the south (later Turks ).
Battle of Blue waters was fought over who will control "Ukraine" territory aka over Kiev. It wasn't by any means battle which stopped invasion into Europe.
Well Lithuania had only hard times fighting against Muscovy (by then Order's military might was long gone), Tatars constantly raided and Lithuania never fought against Turks.
Originally posted by Bielas Bielas wrote:

In my opinion union of Liublin was just a paper. Lithuanians and Poles were separate nations with separate enemies. Both sides ran their politics, just had same king. I think Liublin was the same as Molotov and Ribentrop's pact
Dude, what are you smoking? Comparing Lublin with Molotov-Ribentrop pact is ridiculous. Treaty of Lublin made Kingdom of Poland and Grand Duchy of Lithuania into one state, though some institutions were still seperated. With this union Poles get Russians as enemies. The parlament ( Seim) was common as far as I know.
Originally posted by Bielas Bielas wrote:

I'm just very in intersting why Lithuania's might is so forgotten. Even if Lithuania is the only country which occupied Moscow (in 14th century)

Lithuania never occupied Moscow in 14th century. There were attacks (3 times if i remember corrently) launched by Grand Duke Algirdas, but they all were repulsed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2007 at 14:52
Originally posted by Axeman Axeman wrote:

Well Lithuania had only hard times fighting against Muscovy (by then Order's military might was long gone), Tatars constantly raided and Lithuania never fought against Turks.


Wrong, it was the Livonian Order that defeated (and in defeating, was annihilated) Muscovian armies during the Livonian War in many different parts of the Duchy of Estonia. The military might was definetly not gone and although the Order was defeated, it was defeated only in the end...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2007 at 14:59
Originally posted by rider rider wrote:

Originally posted by Axeman Axeman wrote:

Well Lithuania had only hard times fighting against Muscovy (by then
Order's military might was long gone), Tatars constantly raided and
Lithuania never fought against Turks.
Wrong, it was the Livonian Order that defeated (and in defeating, was annihilated) Muscovian armies during the Livonian War in many different parts of the Duchy of Estonia. The military might was definetly not gone and although the Order was defeated, it was defeated only in the end...

Give me some sources of these battles.
All I know that during Livonian war Order managed to raise army for one battle cosisting of 2000~3000 troops or even less and they were greatly outnumbered and defeated by Muscovy in Ergeme (somewhere around current border between Latvia and Estonia).
Maybe there were some minor skirmished in northern Estonia, but i wounldnt count them as battles.

Edited by axeman - 21-Jan-2007 at 14:59
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bielas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2007 at 15:13
Originally posted by rider rider wrote:



This would reflect the lands of Lithuania better...
Well this map shows Lithuania's teritory on the year of Liublin union as i remember. But biggest teritory was gained by duke Algirdas in the end of 14th century and looked almost the same as on my picture ( that map shows the Lithuania in 14th-15th centuries, when duke Vytautas(1392-1430) rulled) 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Lenon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2007 at 08:14

According to the questions :

>> Was Lithuania greatest Eastern Europe county in Medieval ages?
>>Why Lithuania colapsed
 
It was one of the Greatest. Defenetly in XIV - XV it was peak of power of this state.
At the beginning, the most dagerous enemy of The Great Duchy of Lithuania was Crusaiders. Generally, because of them and because of weakeness of Rus principalities after Mongol invasion (as Axeman wrote), Lithuanian dukes must and could to form this state. The Great Duchy of Lithuania was growing on the lands of the ancient rus state (Kievan Rus'). It was not very difficult, because this lands and population after mongol invasion were needed in new center. And it was The Great Duchy of Lithuania. Let' remember, that the full name of the  Duchy in XIV  was "The Great Duchy of Lithuanians and Russians". But because of fast growing , new enemies appeared - Tatars, The Duchy of Moscow, Poland, etc.  So, The Great Duchy of Lithuania had a problems at least in three directions. And the exit was union with somebody. The situation inside The Great Duchy was not very similar (for example in the Kulikovskaya battle (Tatars vs  Moscow - one of Lithuanian dukes Jagello take part at tatars side, two his brothers at the side of the Duchy Of Moscow, or Vytautus union with Crusaiders against Jagello, etc..) At the end Jagello, as The Great Duke, choose union with Poland. IMHO, not because of state interests, but because of dinasty interests. But it is very dibatable question ...  In XVI century, The Great Duchy came into Real union with Poland. The union called Rzezch Pospolita . The Great Duchy of Lithuania was a part of this new glorious state and collapsed together with it in XVIII century, until XX century. But now at the place of Poland we have Poland , but at the place of  The Glorious Great Duchy of Lithuania we have Lithuania, Belorussia, Ukaine, parts of Latvia and  parts of Russia . May be because of that a lot of people forget about its' ancient power.



Edited by John Lenon - 22-Jan-2007 at 08:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2007 at 11:08
Originally posted by Axeman Axeman wrote:

Give me some sources of these battles.
All I know that during Livonian war Order managed to raise army for one battle cosisting of 2000~3000 troops or even less and they were greatly outnumbered and defeated by Muscovy in Ergeme (somewhere around current border between Latvia and Estonia).
Maybe there were some minor skirmished in northern Estonia, but i wounldnt count them as battles.


Immensly correct you are. The Order was destroyed almost up to the last man in the battle of Oomuli, which I would name as a glorious battle. The Order perished but with it a great many more of their Russian enemies. And the Order won in Northern Estonia, a few sieges of more important castles for a smaller time...

But after Oomuli (where practically the entire Order was destroyed) the Order submitted to the King of Poland and Lithuania. I would indeed consider this as a glorious end; with the military might of these fellows not yet broken as you say...
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