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Forum LockedMagyar origins

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 01:31
I think we have departed from our original topic which was "Magyar origins," so I openinf a new thread about Pazaryk culture and moving the related posts there.
 


Edited by Sarmat12 - 31-Oct-2007 at 01:39
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tar Szernd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 07:53
If someone is interested, one of the legends about Holy Ladislaus  (H.L. and the cuman) has the same end like on these golden saka jewelry.
After killing the cuman soldier, he led his head under a tree in the rescued girls lap, while his servant is holding the bridle of the kings horse.
This and the fighting scene is painted in many of the old hung. and szekler temples in the Charpatian basin.


Edited by Tar Szernd - 31-Oct-2007 at 07:54
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote groovy_merchant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 08:31
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

Yes, we don't have 100% evidence. But we have some proofs which say that Sakas spoke Iranic language and it's most commonly refered as such in scientific literature. More over there are books written in Iranic Saka language in kigdom of Khotan although at a later time then the times of Ancient Skythians



That is correct.

And equally correct is a simple fact that Khotanese never refered to themselves as Saka. They used the word hvatana- instead. In fact, there is no "Saka" in Khotanese language. (Or rather languages, there were  two or maybe three distinct dialects, some say languages).

It should be borne in mind that the term Saka was attributed to Khotanese in the 20 century and never attested in any genuine Khotanese texts. They simply never knew this word. Consequently, this is a very late convenience of Iranists, not a historical fact.

Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:


Kazakh clan, which I mentioned is very often referred as the direct evidence of Sakas influense on Kazakh in Kazakh history books. Moreover there is enough evidence of cultural continuity between ancient Sakas and modern Kazakhs. Genetic tests showed that Sakas and modern Kazakh in some areas have almost identical genetic pool.
 


Again, Saka clans - with more or less close phonetics - can be found in almost any Turkic nation, not only Kazakhs. I would rather call it a most common Turkic appelative found from Inner Mongolia (Fuyu Kyrgyz) to Moldova (Gagauz).

The simple conclusion would be that Sakas were Turkic. But we don't have any direct evidence to support that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 17:22
Originally posted by groovy_merchant groovy_merchant wrote:



Again, Saka clans - with more or less close phonetics - can be found in almost any Turkic nation, not only Kazakhs. I would rather call it a most common Turkic appelative found from Inner Mongolia (Fuyu Kyrgyz) to Moldova (Gagauz).

The simple conclusion would be that Sakas were Turkic. But we don't have any direct evidence to support that.
 
Yes, but the hypo about the origins of these Sakas clans from originally Irano-Sako-Skythians is also possible IMO.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vibo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2007 at 05:15
Turks, Magyars and Huns:
 
There is crediable evedience that the Magyars are decendents of Huns. The Magyars were originally called Turks.
 
Quotes from the Byzantine Emporer Constantine Porphyrogentitus in the "de Administrando Imperio" a book written for his son on how to govern the empire:
 
"The Turks preferred that Aprad should be prince rather than Almoutzis (Almos) his father....." he goes on describing the nation of the Turks is now in what is Hungary. He continously calls the Magyars, Turks in all his writings. "The Turks... came to great Moravia, expelled the inhabitants and live there to this day" This was written in about 950 ad.
 
He also states that the these Turks (Magyars) used to be called "Sabartoi Asphalio" in older times.
 
In Jordanes History of the Goth's written about 550 ad, he states that:
 
"From this region the Huns, like a fruitful root of bravest races, sprouted into two hordes of people. Some of these are called Altziagiri, others Sabiri; and they have different dwelling places."
 
The question is are the Constatine VII, "Sabartoi Asphalio" the same as Jordanes "Sabiri & Altziagiri"
 


Edited by vibo - 16-Dec-2007 at 05:28
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2007 at 16:20
Originally posted by vibo vibo wrote:

Turks, Magyars and Huns:
 
There is crediable evedience that the Magyars are decendents of Huns. The Magyars were originally called Turks.
 
Quotes from the Byzantine Emporer Constantine Porphyrogentitus in the "de Administrando Imperio" a book written for his son on how to govern the empire:
 
"The Turks preferred that Aprad should be prince rather than Almoutzis (Almos) his father....." he goes on describing the nation of the Turks is now in what is Hungary. He continously calls the Magyars, Turks in all his writings. "The Turks... came to great Moravia, expelled the inhabitants and live there to this day" This was written in about 950 ad.
 
He also states that the these Turks (Magyars) used to be called "Sabartoi Asphalio" in older times.
 
In Jordanes History of the Goth's written about 550 ad, he states that:
 
"From this region the Huns, like a fruitful root of bravest races, sprouted into two hordes of people. Some of these are called Altziagiri, others Sabiri; and they have different dwelling places."
 
The question is are the Constatine VII, "Sabartoi Asphalio" the same as Jordanes "Sabiri & Altziagiri"
 


While there is no doubt that the Magyar probably "looked like" the Huns, just as they "looked like" the Avars, Bulgars, and Onogurs, it does not automatically imply that they were their descendants.

The "White Huns" were another phenomenon by the mere fact that they were nomads from Central Asia, yet no evidence links them to the Huns that invaded Europe.
Many scholars, however, did give credit that probably all these groups had some connection, and might have been off-shoots of the Xiongnu, who were a confedaracy of tribes of several ethninities.
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