History Community ~ All Empires Homepage


This is the Archive on WORLD Historia, the old original forum.

 You cannot post here - you can only read.

 

Here is the link to the new forum:

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Calendar   Register Register  Login Login


Forum LockedLuke Skywalker's epic failure

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12
Author
snowybeagle View Drop Down
Baron
Baron
Avatar

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Singapore
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 447
Post Options Post Options   Quote snowybeagle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Luke Skywalker's epic failure
    Posted: 11-Jan-2008 at 03:05
Originally posted by hugoestr

Let me see: Vader had the other hand, and he has the power of the force to levitate and throw stuff at him. After all, he was able to pick up Palpatine with one hand!
The other hand won't let him wield the lightsaber as well.
Levitate and throw stuff?  No big deal to Luke at this stage.
And he didn't pick up Palpatine with one hand, check it out again - he used both arms!!
And if Pappie hadn't been so engrossed on Luke, Vader would have been toast. 

Originally posted by hugoestr

There was plenty of Vader to fight. So Arjuna still stands. No true defeat, no true victory.
He could probably take out a slug, but he was posing no danger to Luke, unless Luke did something like gave him back the lightsaber, stuck his neck out and challenged Vader to see if Vader was evil enough to decapitate him ... which of course Luke did not do.

 
Originally posted by hugoestr

Your statement that Luke was there to show Vader how one could win without killing is quickly contradicted by Vader's action of killing the Emperor! Man, Luke failed at teaching him that as well
Ah, but Vader didn't act to kill the Emperor - he acted to save his son, his son who despite all Vader had done, still believed in him.
 
In addition, he threw Palpatine down the shaft, but hey, it was just pure dumb luck that Palpatine died from that.  Jedis don't automatically die when you just throw them down the shaft, Luke didn't.
 
Technicalities aside, whether one could win without killing really depends on what is the battle one is fighting.
 
Luke wanted to save his father.  Vader wanted to save Luke, not Palpatine.
They were fighting different battles.

Originally posted by hugoestr

The big villain in the original trilogy was Vader, not Palpatine. When Yoda tells Luke that he has to fight his greatest enemy, or something like that, Luke thinks Vader, not Palpatine.
Luke's greatest opponent *is* Vader.
But doesn't mean Vader is the big villain of the original trilogy.
From the larger picture, Palpatine was the main villain, Vader just a henchman.
Vader only figured more prominently from Luke's personal perspective, because they are father and son.

Originally posted by hugoestr

My point is that Luke and the Alliance have no trouble using violence. It is only when Luke's duty and circumstances pushes him towards having to fight Vader than he backs out of violence.
Again, the use of violence is not the issue.
What is the issue is what is the real battle here that Luke is fighting.

Luke sought to avoid fighting his father as a way of overcoming Vader.
He only ended up fighting Vader for 2 reasons:
1. He saw the Alliance ships getting decimated.
2. Vader threatened to turn Leia to the Dark Side.
 
Originally posted by hugoestr

It only deviates from the conventions when it comes to the end. Then, out of nowhere, Luke becomes nonviolent. Had there been some hints that this was going to happen, then the ending would have been awesome: Luke adopts nonviolence, renouncing his sword, goes to meet Vader, etc. etc. Great ending.

Little hints here and there would have been enough.

Ah, but there were ... subtle hints ... right from ANH ...
From words of Obiwan and Yoda ...
Obiwan demonstrated to Luke numerous alternatives to violence as a first choice, right from the time he chose to scare the Tusken Raiders instead of obliterating them.
Yoda too demolished Luke's idea of what to expect from a Jedi Master ... not the great warrior Luke was anticipating.
Plenty of hints, if one is perceptive enough.
Of course, they're more obvious after one finished watching it the first time and went back to it again.
 
Originally posted by hugoestr

During the research that I did, it seems that the story was constantly re-written until the film was done. At one point, I believe, the "Return of the Jedi" was called "The Revenge of the Jedi." One source claims that Lucas did write an ending where Luke fights and truly defeats his dad. In one version he goes to the dark side.
Yes, the title change was true, and there were several versions that Lucas thought of, but I doubt if Lucas ever considered Luke going to the Dark Side.

Originally posted by hugoestr

Now my feeling is that Lucas was sick of Star Wars by the end of Jedi. Had he gone with Luke turning to the dark side, he was committing to make another 3 films right away.
I doubt it.  RotJ was the 6th story.  The next 3 stories which Lucas said he would not be making into films would not have involved Luke.


Edited by snowybeagle - 11-Jan-2008 at 03:09
Back to Top
Ragozy View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl
Avatar

Joined: 29-Nov-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
Post Options Post Options   Quote Ragozy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2008 at 03:39

Hugoestr….now I’m surprised. The original trilogy is somewhat long in the tooth, and the prequels are quickly gaining in age. Interesting that your 6 month old article has brought the Star Wars fans out.

I’m not educated in literature, ancient, modern or yesterday. While as a reader I enjoy the stories, I can’t offer up anything more than the simplest of comments of their – Achilles, Orestes, Oedipus, Gilgamesh, and Arjuna – achievements in serious discussion. The depths of and psychological comparisons as well as motivations and their actions – for me are great stories. A lesson here and there and a rousing good battle.

 Every bit of the front story and all the subplots have been done before. So we’ve seen it all or read it. But I don’t think I ever consciously thought, I know how this will end.

I think in reading your posts. And then re-reading them. One thing sort of stands out. Certainly Luke is the main character in the original trilogy but all six films are about Vader – or Anakin, if you like.  Lucas has somewhere indicated that the entire story was complete when he started the first episode. And it was always about Vader. He had several chances to outright kill Luke, why do you think he held off?

Luke is training to use the Force. While there are certainly aspects of that training that are defensive, I’m not sure he was trained to be a warrior. He was trained to use the Force. A neutral power found within all living things. Don’t ask me to go much farther into that idea, except to say that the Force is what the individual makes of it. That’s how I see it.

From a writer’s point of view, patricide wasn’t necessary. It isn’t or wasn’t a factor of the writer’s original idea. Lucas has shown us through his work that he is a positive thinker. Creative, consistent and imaginative. It doesn’t flow for me that he expects the audience to believe Luke would kill Vader.

Again, I bring up “confront” as the action word. Not kill. Yes, Obi-Wan does say to Luke, “Then the Emperor has already won” in response to Luke saying he would not kill his father. I agree with snowybeagle, these two remnants of the Jedi Order – Yoda and Obi-Wan were lacking when they were active Jedi, now in trying to pawn off their ideals on Luke – they still don’t see that they are dinosaurs – and should have remained extinct. But Luke needed to learn about the Force – so if for only that one thing – they were necessary. Now to just rush forward… Padmé told Obi-Wan that there was still good in him (Anakin). Luke says the same thing to Obi-Wan…too bad in the many re-digitalizing and adding and deleting, he couldn’t have had Old Obi-Wan remember those words.

I think for me it’s purely personal – that Luke didn’t fail. That he rose above what might have been, to do and be what he needed to be. Does that sound cryptic or an old time round robin? Maybe. I am a child of my environment. I’m looking for heroes who don’t’ need to kill to achieve their goals. Childish of me, sure. Why not.

"The truest measure of a society is how it treats its elderly, its pets, and its prisoners."
Back to Top
Cezar View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 09-Nov-2005
Location: Romania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1211
Post Options Post Options   Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2008 at 11:08

I also think that Luke was a lame in the movies. The Expanded Universe is reabilitating him but the films...

In episode IV he is saved by Ben when lokking for R2D2. He then makes a subtle plan to save Leia and manages to escape only because of her and the sacrifice of Ben, not to mention the allowance of Vader. Then he blows up the Death Star because Han comes back at the right time and Biggs let himself killed.
In Episode V he is saved by Han, the fails to save his friend on Bespin, loose his hand and is again saved by Leia.
In Episode VI he designs a plan to save Han that almost get all of them killed. On Endor he rides a hyperbike and does not care about Leia (why didn't he used the Force to find her?). Then he lets himself captured (I think that's better otherwise he would have made up a plan of his that would have cost the Rebellion a lot more) and then he does turn his father from the dark side only to see him dying.
Hah, even 3PO was more of a hero than Luke!
Back to Top
rider View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
AE Editor & Pet Platypus

Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Location: Estonia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4720
Post Options Post Options   Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2008 at 15:13
Yes, in EU Luke is a Jedi. In the movies he makes for an epic fail if we don't look at Hoth where he flew a snowspeeder...
There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.
Back to Top
Cezar View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 09-Nov-2005
Location: Romania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1211
Post Options Post Options   Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2008 at 15:14
... into the ground, after getting his crewman killed (how did he do that? he was facing the AT-AT'sConfused). I never understood why was Luke considered the best starfighter pilot.
Back to Top
hugoestr View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 13-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4003
Post Options Post Options   Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2008 at 18:26
This thread refuses to die. I must thank my editor, Rider, for encouraging me to write this piece, after we discussed this through messenger one day.

Let me add some points to the comments above:

1. Lucas has changed his mind a lot about Star Wars. And this is okay, since it is his story. And he is a movie maker, and movies are done this way.

Lucas has changed the plan for Star Wars a lot. The first I heard was that he was going to make 9 movies. Then he cut it down to 6. I read an interview with the actor that played Luke saying that Lucas was asking him if he would participate in the later episodes, so he may consider making another three.

He is entitled to change his mind. He is the guys making the movies, after all

2. Hi, Ragozy. I must have said this before, but why not again? The movie works in today's audiences. My argument is that it doesn't work as an traditional epic story. I am just a crusty old-fashion guy when it comes to literature, so don't take me too serious

To judge the fatherless and the oppressed, that the man of the earth may no more oppress.


Back to Top
snowybeagle View Drop Down
Baron
Baron
Avatar

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Singapore
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 447
Post Options Post Options   Quote snowybeagle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2008 at 02:03
Originally posted by hugoestr

My argument is that it doesn't work as an traditional epic story. I am just a crusty old-fashion guy when it comes to literature, so don't take me too serious
Ah, given the variety of traditional epic story, you do have a point.
However, Lucas never claimed it was supposed to be a traditional epic story, so it would not do to impose the expectation of a traditional epic story onto it, no matter how many similarities one otherwise find between Star Wars and "traditional epic story".
Back to Top
hugoestr View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 13-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4003
Post Options Post Options   Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2008 at 05:52
Well, Lucas didn't have to say that he was going to do one thing or another. He did it, and it just happens that Star Wars falls under the epic genre.

There are other movies that fall under the epic genre as well. The Godfather is probably my the one that I remember the best. The Sopranos, as a series, also incorporates a lot of good epic elements.

As I said before, Star Wars does work well with modern audiences, although those of us who are more into the genre find Luke lacking. To a certain extent, Lucas himself found him lacking, and transformed Vader into the main hero of the story. Vader is indeed a good epic hero

Maybe the next article that I will write about star war will be about "the force" and its intellectual origins. Of course, I will stick to the cool force from the first trilogy, skipping the cheap sci-fi explanation of the force as some kind of genetic glob hat can be detected with a gizmo, as it happens in the second trilogy.



Edited by hugoestr - 04-Mar-2008 at 05:53
To judge the fatherless and the oppressed, that the man of the earth may no more oppress.


Back to Top
Nefertiti View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 20-Feb-2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
Post Options Post Options   Quote Nefertiti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Feb-2009 at 21:46

I remember when rider posted your article on, what else…? A Star Wars site.  Pretty bold if you ask me, but I was game. Game because to me it came off as what I define as “fanboy” logic. You know…those purists of Star Wars who refuse to see above, below and through what is shown. They are glued to what they see within the saga. No interest in looking for a deeper why.

 

That said I completely disagree with the idea that Luke failed. The only “direction” he was given in the saga was to confront Vader. He did that. A couple of times. Obi-Wan and Yoda both disagreed with Luke about turning Vader back. It was Luke’s own mission to bring Anakin back to lightness and he did succeed.

 

Why is it that you want or need Luke to kill Vader? It’s not necessary to the story except as a ploy to draw in additional monies for the business of movie making. If Luke had killed Vader wasn’t it inferred through the Jedi Masters that Luke himself might fall? Did the audience need both father and son to go all dark? Yes, of course the good guys don’t always win, but isn’t Lucas sort of a goody-goody? He likes stories and films that have positive messages. While he dabbles in the shadows and even dips a toe in the waters he never really immerses himself in the evil he outlines for us in the saga.

 

If you’re going to compare literature, great and not so great, with screenwriters and writers of films, you are going to be disappointed. If you compare heroes from 1,000 years ago, real and produced, with the “actor” heroes of our stories today, you are going to be disappointed. A big hoopla has been made about Campbell and how Lucas uses archetypes and ideas in the saga and for the most part each character has one, two or even 10 of those qualities. Haven’t we, generally, moved away from characters that have real depth?  Getting involved with them is boring, for some.

 

I thought your comment about the “Godfather” being an epic film was interesting and to some degree it is – length, story and so forth. But applauding a film that glorifies the mob? Murder? Guess it’s the old cop in me. Saw the first film years ago and was happy not to go back and see it again or the pre/sequels. I’m not a prude, nor do I live in a rose colored world, but the film did nothing for me.

 

Luke was there to show Vader how one could win without killing is quickly contradicted by Vader's action of killing the Emperor

 

Luke wasn’t a teacher in the saga. It wasn’t his job to teach Vader how not to kill. His assignment (self directed) was to bring his father back to the light. Does that mean that those while living in the light don’t kill? Nah…we both know better than that.

 

The big villain in the original trilogy was Vader, not Palpatine. When Yoda tells Luke that he has to fight his greatest enemy, or something like that, Luke thinks Vader, not Palpatine.

Vader did get that label right off and it was deserved. Vader was the big bad in the OT, Sidious was the puppeteer.  And yes there is an enemy that Luke must fight, but no where is it implied that – that enemy is Vader. You’ve decided that Luke thinks it’s Vader – not the saga. It's a reasonable conclusion, perhaps. It’s difficult to watch the OT now and remember what my initial thoughts were because it’s been retooled. As it stands today, I believe I would have looked immediately at the Emperor as my enemy.

 

My point is that Luke and the Alliance have no trouble using violence. It is only when Luke's duty and circumstances pushes him towards having to fight Vader than he backs out of violence.

 

All groups of peaceful people eventually fight to retain that balance. Sure there are cases in history where a people refused to defend themselves from the invader to maintain their beliefs.  Luke is an individual. The Alliance is an “army.” Luke eventually becomes a part of them adapts to their needs and wants. Wars with them against the oppressive force. Luke is a step-in Jedi. With Yoda gone, how does Luke learn what is a Jedi? Because I’ve become an EUer, I know that he redesigns the Order looking to those things that put it in danger. But in the OT, Luke has only that short time with Obi-Wan and Yoda – the rest he makes up as he goes along. He is not anchored to out-dated procedures of the old Order. The taboos that could be seen as the reason for Anakin’s fall. Luke and the Alliance work independently of each other, until they need each other. They aren’t joined at the hip.

 

Your examples of heroes are good, but what are you really showing us? That all things end. That even the gods themselves have foibles, faults and darkness.

 

Luke’s a kid. A farmboy who found out that he was something more. He had two choices. Good or evil. He chose good. Not a pristine shining hero good, but one that makes errors – which makes him more like you and I.

 

The moment of truth? I think that’s an individual thing, don’t you? What’s the moment of truth? When Yoda finally tells Luke that yes, Vader is his father? Isn’t that the moment of truth? It was one of them for me. Finally the all superior Jedi tell the truth. And not from some obscure point of view. The facts. Sounds like you see the moment of truth the duel between Vader and Luke. The old father-son battle we see so often portrayed in real life and fiction.  Ho-hum…

 

Did you think Lucas was burnt out? Tired of Star Wars? I never got that feeling. And the changes he makes from paper to celluloid, aren’t they just more proof that he’s a light-sider? Jedi don’t do Revenge they do Returns. There are better stories out there. Richer. Filled with depth, angst and whatever trips your trigger. Star Wars stands tall – in spite of its inconsistencies and flaws and I think that’s because it appeals to all ages at once. You don’t have to be any age to enjoy the films. They are almost timeless. They are positive. They display all the attributes we wish and hope we are and can be. It’s Star Wars.

Back to Top
eaglecap View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 15-Feb-2005
Location: DesertSouthwest
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3265
Post Options Post Options   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Feb-2009 at 21:51


hugoestr - will have to print and read this later on but it should be a fun read. I once met someone who claimed their names was, "Luke Skywalker." So you can say I met Luke Skywalker if that was really his name. I should have asked him if his father was named Darth Vadar!!
Oh god, now that Star Wars music theme will keep repeating in my head- LOL
Well then, brothers and fellow citizens and soldiers, remember this in order that your memorial, your fame and freedom will be eternal.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.047 seconds.