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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2009 at 22:31
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

What I meant was regardless if Native Americans had fought each others since eternity Europeans had no right to go there in the first place and start to interfere in their lives and cultures. That the Europeans after their arrival started to meddle in the internal affairs of the indigenous and started to play the game of divide and conquer is another matter.
 
Absolutely. They had no right. But "rights" have never stopped people.  All it can be done today is just to remember these events were an invasion, and not a wonderful "discovery".
 
To paraphrase popular culture: Rights! We don't need no stinking rights! But, Pinguin, you forget that the Spanish were legalists to the extreme, and the juridical roots sustaining the colonization of the New World would deaden even the most intense scholastic. Of greater importance, however, is that the advent of the Spanish on the shores of the Mundus Novus, and such was the European conception as early as 1501, did lay the foundations of International Law and the capacity to speak of "rights' in any juridical manner at all.
 
Try this on for size:
 
 
Or review the greater link:
 
 
As I have growm tired of repeating the verbiage of the 21st century does nothing but obscure and misrepresent the actual ideas and conceptions of the past in their maturation toward modernity.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote applebuilder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2009 at 03:13
Wow this thread really took off.  I didn't get a chance to read all the posts and will come back to them later, but for now I'd like to throw in my two cents.  First off, in a historic sense I am completely ignorant and my interest in the Native Americans comes more from an environmental perspective.  Rather than speculate on what historically happened [since many arguments can be drawn from that process (as is shown in this thread) without any conclusive knowledge being gained.  " They can be turned on their head with the next discovery, or evidence that a previously accepted theory was filtered through some politically correct lens to avoid contradicting well established theories." - lirelou], I want to learn about the native peoples' traditions since that is how much cultural knowledge is passed on.  That's why I feel sources from Native Americans themselves or people who have had close relationships with them are particularly valuable (thanks for your suggestions eaglecap).  One very good point brought up was that Native Americans had no perception of personal ownership of the land, which is what I believe allowed them to survive for so long.  I too believe that it isn't worth figuring out who's fault is who's, but I do know that Native Americans (and many cultures around the world) have been able to live sustainably off the land for thousands of years, but in the span of a few hundreds years of Western influence many resources have become scarce and much of the local flora and fauna have been devastated.  That's what I intially meant by "lost heritage" and I'm trying to get some of that precious commodity back. 
 
On more of an opinion basis, I don't think it's fair to compare European conquest with inter-tribal confilicts.  Tribal conflicts were born out of neccessity and there was nothing necessary about the totality of what the Europeans accomplished, unless you look at it from a religious view.  I saw a historical documentary on tv where one tribe had joined forces with Europeans in order to defeat their rivals, but once the fighting commenced the natives began to yell "No more!" in reaction to the European brutality because the idea of genocide was so alien to them (sorry about the layman's terminology).  Now I'm not trying to paint the Amerindians as some divine race, that's just unrealistic, but there does seem to be some sense of respectful restraint in indigenous culture and that wisdom is also passed on through tradition.  I concede that what I know or how I interpreted it could have been influenced by my goals, but I'm learning as I go. 
 
Anyways, if there are any more resources out there I'd appreciate them.  Also, in no way am I trying to downplay history.  I was just emphasizing that it wasn't my focus and I'll leave you guys to your debate. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2009 at 05:35
Well, the problem is that not all native americans were tribal people at all. In the Americas there were nomades, farmers, large societies and even empires half the size of the Roman Empire. Believing all the Indians have the same mentality, and all have the same phylosophy is really nonsense.
Even from the ecologist point of view there are many contradiction. It is well known the entrance of humans to the New World devasted the fauna. It is also well known that ecological crisis afected the Anazasis, the Moche, the Mayans and many other cultures. There was even industrial polution at that time.
 
So, it is not western phylosophy versus native what we are talking about here. It is simply the fact Europeans invaded the New World, without ANY right to do so. As simple as that.
 
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2009 at 18:54
Applebuilder, in re: "One very good point brought up was that Native Americans had no perception of personal ownership of the land, which is what I believe allowed them to survive for so long."

That must be qualified. They certainly had a clear concept of private property, i.e. horses, weapons, tools, clothing, ceremonial regalia, etc.  They also had clear concepts of communal property, both clan and tribal. They also had concepts of shared areas between clans and tribes, such as hunting grounds that some could use, and others could not.  So "no perception of personal ownership of the land" in only correct in the individual private ownership sense.

As to:  "but once the fighting commenced the natives began to yell "No more!" in reaction to the European brutality because the idea of genocide was so alien to them." You may be reading too much into that. Tribes did fight wars of annihilation against weak neighbors. Look at the history of the Delaware tribe, who came close to annihilation at the hands of their enemies.

 

Edited by lirelou - 16-Jun-2009 at 19:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2009 at 19:04
Pinguino, always the same old drum beat. The Europeans had as much right to immigrate to America as the pre-historic North Asians/Siberians did. Or, do you have a copy of "Adam's Will" containing a clause that says otherwise?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2009 at 20:23
lirelou  Pinguino, always the same old drum beat. The Europeans had as much right to immigrate to America as the pre-historic North Asians/Siberians did. Or, do you have a copy of "Adam's Will" containing a clause that says otherwise?
 
It was a rather different situation. When the first North Asians/Siberians arrived there were no other peoples living there. When the Europeans came to America there were already people living there, people who´s land the Europeans in different manners invaded, infiltrated, expropriated and in other ways gained access to.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2009 at 21:44
Hey folks, let us agree that this bit over "invaders and invasions" is so archaic as to be hoary and developing cobwebs, specially with respect to a rather novel concept moved forth under current International Law--the freedom to emigrate.Evil Smile
 
Is anyone familiar with the recent to do over "early points" on the Atlantic litoral and their similarity with those on the opposing European shore?
 
 
 
I know, I know, been there done that so on and so forth, but give us a break and let's cease all of this one-upsmanship over political correctness. Whatever may have bothered the conscience of the 16th century was absolved by Francisco de Victoria and The Rights of War.
 

Inasmuch as the seizure and occupation of those lands of the barbarians whom we style Indians can best, it seems, be defended under the law of war, I propose to supplement the foregoing discussion of the titles, some just and some unjust, which the Spaniards may allege for their hold on the lands in question, by a short discussion of the law of war, so as to give more completeness to that relectio. As, however, the other claims on my time will not allow me to deal with all the points which arise out of this topic, the scope which I can give my pen must be proportionate, not to the amplitude and dignity of the theme, but to the shortness of the time at my disposal. And so I will merely note the main propositions of this topic, together with very brief proofs, and will abstain from touching on the many doubtful matters which might otherwise be brought into this discussion. I will deal with four principal questions. First, Whether Christians may make war at all; secondly, Where does the authority to declare or wage war repose; thirdly, What may and ought to furnish causes of just war; fourthly, What and how extensive measures may be taken in a just war against the enemy?

 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2009 at 22:00

Balooney.

Europeans robbed the Indian lands.
 
It amazes me modern and decent people has so much trouble to recognize something so obvious.
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2009 at 23:34
Give it a rest, Pinguin, or at least choose another adjective...it's not anyone's fault your "victims" failed to carry homeowner's insurance! Governments take other peoples lands all the time under the principles of eminent domain and best use.
 
Now where is a Mastodon going to find a good tort lawyer!?!
 
Angel
 
Anyway if you are so guilt struck about it, why not take a Mapuche out to dinner?
 
Sorry for the levity but all of your protests are irrelevant to the 16th century except when intertwined with and in terms of how the Europeans justified such actions in terms of their own morality. Hence my reference to Victoria.


Edited by drgonzaga - 17-Jun-2009 at 03:01
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2009 at 01:20
pinguin:
 
Balooney.
Europeans robbed the Indian lands.
 
It amazes me modern and decent people has so much trouble to recognize something so obvious.
 
Maybe they just don´t want to admit that some of their ancestors may have been among  those who stole other peoples land. But those who have such ancestors just have to learn to face up to it like many other peoples round the world have to face up to their history.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2009 at 01:48
Exactly.
 
While living under the military regime of Pinochet I discover how important the right adjectives are. You know, the gorillas didn't like to talk about a military coup (golpe). They preffered to call it a "military declaration"  (pronunciamiento militar).
Well, while they were in power, nobody spoke about "coups" in Chile. It was just a "declaration".
When democracy return and the criminals started to be sent to jail, people finally named it like it was: A COUP.
 
I know centuries could pass., but finally the world and the official historians will use the right terms to talk about the INVASION of the Americas and the Robbery of the lands.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2009 at 01:56
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

... 
Anyway if you are so guilt struck about, why not take a Mapuche out to dinner?
....
 
No matter most of my relatives and ancestors are of Iberian origins, I do have Mapuche friends, co-workers and students. Some of my in-laws are of that origin as well. Even more, I am studying Mapudungun.
 
So, please, restrain yourself of using such a bad taste sense of humor. OK?
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2009 at 03:04
Actually the good Doctor has a nice way with words and at least I find his humor spot on. Pinguino (new nic and I like that too) he is simply reminding us not to get too carried away with redundant assertions and that the occasional use of levity acts as a good counterbalance to those who need a refreshing dose of sanity.  My two cents. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2009 at 03:20
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

... 
Anyway if you are so guilt struck about it, why not take a Mapuche out to dinner?
....
 
No matter most of my relatives and ancestors are of Iberian origins, I do have Mapuche friends, co-workers and students. Some of my in-laws are of that origin as well. Even more, I am studying Mapudungun. 
So, please, restrain yourself of using such a bad taste sense of humor. OK?
 
As I have tired of iterating, you can not make moral judgments on the past in terms of contemporary exigencies and understanding for in doing so one learns nothing of that past nor how and why the present is different. You can certainly affirm the negative aspects of the process within Modern Thought but the moral history of the past few generations, so entwined with relativism,  can hardly sustain such an effort without being heavily charged with hypocrisy.
 
I am sorry you did not grasp my ironic humour, but in response you provided one of the classic gotchas--"why some of my best friends are..."--, which should serve as a warning on the dangers of forcing the language of the present onto the past.
 
Since you raised the narrative on the immediate past of Chile, I will respond directly elsewhere as to why such is the classic example of what I am talking about.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2009 at 03:26
If you can't make moral judgments of the past, then why to judge Nazis and the hollocaust? Why to judge the Vietnam war? Hiroshima?
 
Nope. There you are absolutelly wrong. One of the tasks of history is preciselly to evaluate history. That's to judge it.
 
For instance, Chile already judged Pinochet and he was classified as a criminal, a robber and a cochrache. Perhaps the only thing that could save him is that he is also known to have been an idiot Confused. At his funeral, the son of one of his victim spit his coffin...
 
That's the way to do it.


Edited by pinguin - 17-Jun-2009 at 03:30
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2009 at 04:19
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Exactly.
While living under the military regime of Pinochet I discover how important the right adjectives are. You know, the gorillas didn't like to talk about a military coup (golpe). They preffered to call it a "military declaration"  (pronunciamiento militar).
Well, while they were in power, nobody spoke about "coups" in Chile. It was just a "declaration".
When democracy return and the criminals started to be sent to jail, people finally named it like it was: A COUP.
 
I know centuries could pass., but finally the world and the official historians will use the right terms to talk about the INVASION of the Americas and the Robbery of the lands.
 
That you remain at war with near contemporary events is clear from your reach for the "right adjectives", but then for every gorilla there was a countebalancing communist dog; yet, despite all of this colorful verbiage the fact remains that "the nature of the Chilean military as an institution is deeply rooted in Chile's tradition and history". And here a read of the full context of the above quoted passage is in order:
 
 
as well as an analysis of the near past in terms of "political science":
 
 
It is of historical interest that rather than employing the classic terminology of the "golpe de estado" (the Napoleonic coup d'etat), the Chilean military turned to early revolutionary Spain and the Grito de Riego, which coined the term Pronunciamiento Militar, whose intent was to shape government as a projection of the national will through the support of political forces and public opinion [no matter how hard one tries it is hard to escape the mind set of 19th century Liberalism within the Chilean military as an institution]. Such certainly brings forth a reason as to why the 1980 Constitution continued to haunt Chile.
 
An amplification through the earlier citation is in order:
 
 
The Pronunciamiento did not materialize out of thin air, however, and can be viewed as the formal response of the military as an institution to the call for the restoration of order made by the Chilean Chamber of Deputies on 22 August 1973 to the military ministers of the government to secure "la orden constitucional"!
 
To blame all on Pinochet is to turn a blind eye to the actual historical and social forces in tension within Chile and its institutions. Similarly, to call the advent of the European onto the Western Hemisphere, an invasion and an act of robbery, says nothing of the forces and institution at play nor can explain the true roots of American hemispheric identity. It may make some feel good but such verbiage carries nothing of relevance, specially if one wishes to understand the distinct differences in the societies that now constitute the Americas.
 
 


Edited by drgonzaga - 17-Jun-2009 at 17:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2009 at 04:35
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

If you can't make moral judgments of the past, then why to judge Nazis and the hollocaust? Why to judge the Vietnam war? Hiroshima?
 
Nope. There you are absolutelly wrong. One of the tasks of history is preciselly to evaluate history. That's to judge it.
 
For instance, Chile already judged Pinochet and he was classified as a criminal, a robber and a cochrache. Perhaps the only thing that could save him is that he is also known to have been an idiot Confused. At his funeral, the son of one of his victim spit his coffin...
 
That's the way to do it.
 
In his day the majority of Europeans looked upon Napoleon much as the middle of the 20th century looked upon Hitler...but I would not advise that you rush into Les Invalides to spit on Napoleon's tomb! Besides, there is quite a difference between evaluating and judging, the latter is as transitory as life itself. Today's judgments may quickly become tomorrow's foolishness. The horror of Nazism lies not in its crimes, but on just how ordinary its perpetrators were. That is an evaluation and most certainly not a judgment for when one goes searching for monsters, one inevitably fails to look into a mirror.


Edited by drgonzaga - 17-Jun-2009 at 04:36
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2009 at 11:58
Whatever one want to call it, evaluation or judgement it was still an invasion from the Europeans into the lands of the Native Americans. If it was not an invasion then we must rename all other invasions in history to. Maybe Hitlers invasion of the Soviet was just an exploratory expedition?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2009 at 14:33

Yes. We should rename the "Mongolian invasions" then as the "Mongolian touristic expeditions", and the "Barbarian invasions" as the "Barbarian foreign visitors"....

Weird.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2009 at 14:39
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

[
...That you remain at war with near contemporary events is clear from your reach for the "right adjectives", but then for every gorilla there was a countebalancing communist dog; yet, despite all of this colorful verbiage the fact remains that "the nature of the Chilean military as an institution is deeply rooted in Chile's tradition and history". And here a read of the full context of the above quoted passage is in order:
 
 
as well as an analysis of the near past in terms of "political science":
 
 
It is of historical interest that rather than employing the classic terminology of the "golpe de estado" (the Napoleonic coup d'etat), the Chilean military turned to early revolutionary Spain and the Grito de Riego, which coined the term Pronunciamiento Militar, whose intent was to shape government as a projection of the national will through the support of political forces and public opinion [no matter how hard one tries it is hard to escape the mind set of 19th century Liberalism within the Chilean military as an institution]. Such certainly brings forth a reason as to why the 1980 Constitution continued to haunt Chile.
 
An amplification through the earlier citation is in order:
 
 
The Pronunciamiento did not materialize out of thin air, however, and can be viewed as the formal response of the military as an institution to the call for the restoration of order made by the Chilean Chamber of Deputies on 22 August 1973 to the military ministers of the government to secure "la orden constitucional"!
 
To blame all on Pinochet is to turn a blind eye to the actual historical and social forces in tension within Chile and its institutions. Similarly, to call the advent of the European onto the Western Hemisphere, an invasion and an act of robbery, says nothing of the forces and institution at play nor can explain the true roots of American hemispheric identity. It may make some fell good but such verbiage carries nothing of relevance, specially if one wishes to understand the distinct differences in the societies that now constitute the Americas.
 
 
The "pronunciamiento"... (what a stupid word to describe it) was the work of a bunch of thugs supported by the right wing and also corrupted Nixon administration. They controlled the navy and the army, and from there they controlled the country.
 
It was very unfortunate for us that our military institutions became involved in such low affairs, and it has cost us three decades of cleaning to make them be just a bit as brilliant as they once were.
 
But we have it very clear. Those mafiosi that took power doesn't represent Chile not the armed forced. Even more, with time the shadows of the victions, like General Prat, will left in darkness the memory of those bloody idiots.
 
Egyptians erased the memory of the bad Pharaons. The same will happen in this case here.
 
 
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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