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Forum LockedLooking for Pre-Colombian Southern Californian His

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    Posted: 02-Jun-2009 at 03:48
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Hi, new to the forum here and was looking for notable resources (preferably books) on pre-Colombian southern Californian history.  I'm very interested in the customs and traditions of the native peoples, particularly what they ate and how it was obtained.  Unfortunately this topic doesn't seem to be well documented so I hope you guys will be able to help me, thanks.



Edited by Seko - 14-Jan-2010 at 20:19
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2009 at 17:24

An introduction with a couple of links and suggestions on further reading:

 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2009 at 21:45
From the perspective of the surviving Amerinds, try this link:
 
 
Far more complex than you envisioned, is it not? I would cite Spanish sources from the 18th century, but if you are unfamiliar with the language...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote applebuilder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2009 at 05:39
Thanks for the links, a lot of good stuff and I've barely touched them.  It's complex but I think it's worth studying the "lost" American heritage.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2009 at 06:09

That's curious. Today we know a lot more about Native Americans than our ancestors did a century ago. Rather than lossing theirs heritage, the rate of rediscovery is really amazing. For instance, Caral was unkown just a decade ago. And in the states, only recently Kahokia has been reconstructed from zero.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote applebuilder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2009 at 20:45

In that case I guess I just need to learn to look in the right places and I appreciate the help I've gotten in doing that so far.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2009 at 23:15
Have you read "Ishi?" It is about the last wild Indian in California who lived with anthropologist in the 1800's. Sarah Winnemucca also has a good book about the Paiute who lived in E. California and Nevada/Utah. They are not pre-Columbian but I think they have some good information for your research.

http://www.unr.edu/nwhp/bios/women/winnemucca.htm

Edited by eaglecap - 08-Jun-2009 at 23:16
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2009 at 02:19
Penguin, In re:  "Today we know a lot more about Native Americans than our ancestors did a century ago."

I wouldn't go that far. There have been some important discoveries (v.g., 7000 year old Caucasian remains, the Cacaxtla site, etc). But beyond what the Spanish picked up from their newly conquered peoples, everything earlier is theory. Granted, much of that theory is based upon some first rate archeological studies, and some important developments in deciphering previously "lost" languages, but those theories merely explain what has been found. They can be turned on their head with the next discovery, or evidence that a previously accepted theory was filtered through some politically correct lens to avoid contradicting well established theories. I remember being assured by my guides at Teotihuacan that the peoples there did not practice human sacrifice. Yet an anthropologist who had visited the site told me he had noted "blood runnels" where the blood of victims would have been carried away. Voluminous books on any subject does not necessarily produce an increase in knowledge. And you'd be hard pressed to find any better accounts of the early Aztec and Peruvians that William Prescott's early 19th Century accounts. (The Conquest of Mexico, The Conquest of Peru). The writing style is just harder to read.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2009 at 17:11
Well, William Prescott didn't have any clue about Caral or the Chinchorros in Peru.
He also missed the desciphering of Mayan writing, from which we can read now accounts written in the 7th century A.D. about political events of those times. He also didn't have a clue about the ancient trade routes that connected by sea Colombia with Mexico along the Pacific coast.
Some things will remain in the mystery, of course, but there has been a lot of advances in research. There have been many discoveries and new things appear every year.
That's what I mean
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Well, folks, no dismissal of Prescott as a good writer of English, but anything and everything he had to say on High Amerindian culture was borrowed, sometimes translated verbatim, from Spanish sources be they brief narratives such as that of Las Casas or lengthy works by such as Bernal Diaz del Castillo or Garcilaso de la Vega Inca. Why? Well this New Englander was friends with the three leading hispanicists of his day, George Ticknor, Washington Irving and Henry W. Longfellow, and these gladly led him to the sources.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2009 at 02:04
I don't think Prescott would have ever pretended otherwise. For all their alleged faults (which generally brush lightly over any faults of their "victims"), the Spanish were meticulous record keepers. Whether they owe that  to the Romans, or to Carlos V's upbringing in Flanders, they did well by it. One wonders how many of today's Ph.Ds in studies touching on High Amerindian culture owe their degrees to documents contained in the Archives of the Indies.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2009 at 03:01
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

(which generally brush lightly over any faults of their "victims"),
 
It was actually the Spaniards who invaded the Americas (or at least parts of it) not the Amerindians who invaded Spain. But maybe invading other peoples land "brush lightly."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2009 at 05:09
What is amazing of the Spanish Chronicles is that they are impartial. Anyone that has studied them will realize that Spanish were brutal, but not genocidal people. In fact, of all the lands conquered by the Spaniards natives survived the best in Spanish America.
 
In the rest, British, French and Dutch simply wiped out the land and killed the navites in mass to replace them with Africans. The Portuguese also enslaved Indians and exploited them to the extinction.
 
However, historians keep fooling around with Spaniards, perhaps because they were honest enough to record the events, meanwhile other simply covered the crimes with dust, and invented wild excuses like the one about wiping out Inidans by "contagious diseases". Genocide, that's what happened! 
 
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 11-Jun-2009 at 05:10
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2009 at 05:34
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

(which generally brush lightly over any faults of their "victims"),
 
It was actually the Spaniards who invaded the Americas (or at least parts of it) not the Amerindians who invaded Spain. But maybe invading other peoples land "brush lightly."
 
 
Sorry to rain on this digression, but technically all Homo sapiens are "invaders" on the landscapes of the Western Hemisphere. By the way, Carcharodon, there was no political entity known as Spain in the 15th century nor at any time during the Habsburg dynasty. Coinage at different intervals bore the imprint Rex Hispanorum, but such--which translates as "king of the Spains"--was a numismatic convenience [the doubloons minted in the Americas added et Indianorum: of the Indies]. So dies another travesty of nomenclature fashioned by  French and English historiography. Technically, the Indies were an appendage of the Reino de Castilla y Leon and the merchants of this realm were not going to tolerate competitors from other dominions held by their sovereign.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mixcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2009 at 07:22
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

I don't think Prescott would have ever pretended otherwise. For all their alleged faults (which generally brush lightly over any faults of their "victims"), the Spanish were meticulous record keepers. Whether they owe that  to the Romans, or to Carlos V's upbringing in Flanders, they did well by it. One wonders how many of today's Ph.Ds in studies touching on High Amerindian culture owe their degrees to documents contained in the Archives of the Indies.

I don't know how this could be considered a serious argument. Not that I am a defender of High American culture let alone an indigenist (which I consider racist), but disqualifying people who do because they use documentation created by the Amerindians' oppressors. The Nazis were meticulous record keepers, but it would be absurd to criticize scholars of the Holocaust for using Nazi sources. The Khmer Rouge were also meticulous record keepers. Romania's and East Germany's communist regimes were meticulous record keepers. Paraguay's Stroessner regime was a meticulous record keeper. Are you suggesting anybody studying these regimes do not use data collected by them?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2009 at 13:52
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Sorry to rain on this digression, but technically all Homo sapiens are "invaders" on the landscapes of the Western Hemisphere.
 
For what it´s worth, it´s a difference between the first immigrants that came over the Bering straits maybe 15 000 years ago and spread over the land and the Europeans that came much, much later and many times used force to expel and replace people who already lived there.
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

By the way, Carcharodon, there was no political entity known as Spain in the 15th century nor at any time during the Habsburg dynasty. Coinage at different intervals bore the imprint Rex Hispanorum, but such--which translates as "king of the Spains"--was a numismatic convenience [the doubloons minted in the Americas added et Indianorum: of the Indies]. So dies another travesty of nomenclature fashioned by  French and English historiography. Technically, the Indies were an appendage of the Reino de Castilla y Leon and the merchants of this realm were not going to tolerate competitors from other dominions held by their sovereign.
 
What you actually will call the Spaniards at that time is more about semantics, it doesn´t change the fact that they went over to the Americas and invaded other peoles territory.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2009 at 15:12
Originally posted by Mixcoatl Mixcoatl wrote:

...
I don't know how this could be considered a serious argument. Not that I am a defender of High American culture let alone an indigenist (which I consider racist), but disqualifying people who do because they use documentation created by the Amerindians' oppressors. The Nazis were meticulous record keepers, but it would be absurd to criticize scholars of the Holocaust for using Nazi sources. The Khmer Rouge were also meticulous record keepers. Romania's and East Germany's communist regimes were meticulous record keepers. Paraguay's Stroessner regime was a meticulous record keeper. Are you suggesting anybody studying these regimes do not use data collected by them?
 
But the worst colonial regimes in the Americas were the British, French and Portuguese, in that order, and the Americans didn't do better when they broke "free". And those guys forgot everything. In fact Hitler himself got inspired in the Conquist of the West, only that he send his hordes in to oposite direction: to the East.
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 11-Jun-2009 at 15:13
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2009 at 15:14
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Sorry to rain on this digression, but technically all Homo sapiens are "invaders" on the landscapes of the Western Hemisphere.
 
For what it´s worth, it´s a difference between the first immigrants that came over the Bering straits maybe 15 000 years ago and spread over the land and the Europeans that came much, much later and many times used force to expel and replace people who already lived there.
 
Cosign.
 
The Americas weren't alone, there was the Indigenous man (from a song)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2009 at 16:46
Mixcoatl, If you read my post carefully, you'll see that I have a very high respect for the Archives of the Indies, and those who wrote the various studies and accounts that went into those archives. The Spanish had great respect for the peoples they conquered, and it showed in their writings. Even the turgidly difficult "Historia de la Nueva Mexico" by "Capitan" Gaspar de Villagra, written (poorly) in the form of an epic poem, contained a wealth of details on the Aztec origins, and Juan de Onate's expedition to what is today New Mexico. Indeed, you can find the names of virtually every old family in New Mexico by reference to their progenitor.

Pinguino and Carcharodon, If you keep dredging up polemics, we will simply see again the tired old arguments we've seen in so many other threads. drgonzaga make his point well. There was probably not a single people in the americas at the time of the Conquest, except perhaps in the Amazon and out on the Pampa, who had not taken their territory by conquest. Pinguino, you might find the "Atlas Historico de Mesoamerica" compiled by Linda Manzanilla and Leonardo Lopez Lujan of some interest. Published by Larousse (Referencias Larousse), it gives a very brief overview of the Americas prior to the conquest. Of note, it the constant mentioning of peoples who have been conquered, or have conquered.

Both of you keep missing the point on North America, that part of the continent that nobody wanted because the Indians were not "civilized", as were the mesoamericans, Chibcha. and Peruvians. It was not a conquest. It was a process of accretion. More Europeans kept arriving, and the Indigenous population kept falling. It was a process of dislocation. The Great Plains were "conquered" by Swedish, Norwegian, and German immigrants who moved into empty lands and put up fences. The Buffalo, already seriously impacted by the railroads, were nearly exterminated. With that, the days of the Great Plains tribes were over. More than any military campaigns, that was what settled the future of the plains tribes. Their real problem was that their total population as a semi-nomadic people following the buffalo, could never match that of an emerging industrial and agricultural giant.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2009 at 16:49
Hey, people, why sell the Amerind short? They, no less than any "Spaniard", were just as adept at "invading" other peoples "territory". And with regard to these "nasty" Spaniards, we would need an example of "expell[ing] and replac[ing'" anyone! In fact in the Spanish archives at Seville there are nifty land grants to Amerind communities [e.g. the Tiguas, who were not despoiled until the arrival of the "gringo" in the 1850s] including a rather handsome 1795 grant in East Texas to Amerind refugees (the Alabama-Coushatta) from the despoilation visited on them by the young U. S. Republic.
 
Of course, we could also argue, as some do, that Caucasians were the first to reach the Americas, but that these Atlantic crossers were exterminated by the later Amerinds...just showing how crazy caricaturing the past can get, folks! One can really go over the top by bringing in the Nazis. For heaven's sake people get a grip.
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