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JDavis View Drop Down
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    Posted: 14-Nov-2008 at 17:21
I was reading some material on Eos and ran across some interesting linguistics. The book sites Lycophon (Lycopbon) as the source. It is not clear what source, but i am preusming "Cassandra" This is what was stated:

Tito is a feminine form of Titan which could mean "day". Tithonos is the masculine form of Tito and belonged to an ancinet non-Greek language.


If the above is true, does anyone care to speculate as to which ancient language or group this might be referring?

Thanks for your thoughts
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Nov-2008 at 15:18

Tithonus, Eos' lover, was supposedly Trojan. At a guess therefore the name is associated with whatever language the Trojans spoke, whatever that was.

Wikipedia has an article on the hypothetical Trojan language http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_language

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2008 at 16:18
The Θ sound in Greek is certainly a remain of the pre-Greek languages.

I'm tend to believe that such a language was of the anatolian type. If not, it was a group of its own with heavy anatolian influence.

gcle2003 comment about Trojan is a good point. The only speculations we can do about Trojan language are based on Homers namings of people and the fact that geographically the Trojans were surrounded by certain people. Some say based on the names that Trojan could be some cousin people to the Greeks with a related language. Others say that Homer converted the original Trojan names to Greek. My input on that is that Greeks converted non Greek names to be more compatible with Greek speech e.g Navouchodonosoras is the Greek version of Nebuchadnezzar. However, unlike some Trojan names, Navouchodonosoras has absolutely no meaning in Greek.

The only Trojan record I've seen so far is from a man called Gaios (masculine form of Gaia) in Crete, claiming he is Trojan, using the local Cretan Greek (not eteocretan ofcourse) dialect: http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptions/main?url=oi%3Fikey%3D200820%26region%3D7%26subregion%3D26%26bookid%3D293%26caller%3Dsearch%26start%3D370%26end%3D374

I do not believe Greek was an imported language but rather a result of a clash of languages in the helladic area, were neolithic inhabitants met new IE invaders. Based on that, whatever linguistic group gave basis to the new language, the same group could have some connection to the Trojan languages as well.

What troubles me is that Θ appears in Thracian writting but, from my understanding Thracians pronounced it a Z not Θ like english "Thermal" or Spannish Zaragosa.

Now, the same Θ sound appears in words like Thalassa which is clearly a Luwian word meaning "our salt" or something showing possession of the alas (salt, Luw. Alat).

However, the Luwian word for sea is "alasammis", so the Θ sound is a later addition founded in Greek. That brings some damn trouble and that's why i might suspect that the pre-Greek languages could be a group of their own with anatolian influence.

Something else that troubles me as well are combinations of consonants that are not that common in other IE languages nor other known major language groups e.g ΦΘ- like Phthora, ΣΦ- like Sphyrida or Mac. Sphryraena, Δζ- like Laconian Doric Dzini, ΒΓ- like evgenis (eugenis).


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2008 at 19:47
Originally posted by Flipper Flipper wrote:

The only Trojan record I've seen so far is from a man called Gaios (masculine form of Gaia) in Crete, claiming he is Trojan, using the local Cretan Greek (not eteocretan ofcourse) dialect: http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptions/main?url=oi%3Fikey%3D200820%26region%3D7%26subregion%3D26%26bookid%3D293%26caller%3Dsearch%26start%3D370%26end%3D374 
I don't think this inscription shows a real Trojan (i.e a pre-Greek one). It is dated in the 3rd century AD. And Greek authors like Pausanias ( http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0004%3Aid%3Dtroad ) or Strabo ( http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0198&query=book%3D%238 ) wrote of Troad as a reality of their days. There was even a Roman settlement built there, carrying the same name ( http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptions/oi?ikey=287611&bookid=718&region=8&subregion=32 , http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptions/oi?ikey=288038&bookid=719&region=8&subregion=32 )
 
Quote The Θ sound in Greek is certainly a remain of the pre-Greek languages.
As far as I know the sound is IE and in many cases can be discussed together with Φ and Χ. Initially they were aspirated consonants, later (but in Antiquity, nevertheless) they became fricatives. But apparently the proto-Greek language did not have consonant clusters like ΝΘ (as in Korinthos, Erymanthos, etc.), and perhaps there are other contexts for Θ which can indicate a substratum.
 
Quote What troubles me is that Θ appears in Thracian writting but, from my understanding Thracians pronounced it a Z not Θ like english "Thermal" or Spannish Zaragosa.
The pronounciation of this sound in Thracian is uncertain. Some scholars considered it a fricative, others a palatal sound (the two are not mutually exclusive, though). The difference between Thracian and Greek is that in writing Thracian glosses and names the sounds Φ and Χ are virtually absent (present in a very small number), and thus they are usually regarded as corruptions or adaptations to some other language's phonology (Latin, Greek, etc.). At the same time, in Thrace (but not only), the Greek aspirates were often de-aspirated (one of the most famous examples is Pulpudeva, the Thracian name of Philippopolis, today Plovdiv in Bulgaria)
 
 


Edited by Chilbudios - 16-Nov-2008 at 19:49
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2008 at 21:10
Originally posted by Chilbudios Chilbudios wrote:

I don't think this inscription shows a real Trojan (i.e a pre-Greek one).


Yeah, obviously. It is just the only example i have found so far were a person claims he/she is a Trojan.
 
As for the Thracian pronounciation i'm certain I've seen the word "Thracians" (Θράκες) written as Zracians (Zράκες) and the word Thrace (Θράκη) written as Zraece (Ζραίκη). That's why i suspect that Θ in Thracian speech might have been actually read as Z. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2008 at 21:23
Also have a look on the following naming i just found:

Ζουραζεις Αυλουζενεος (IGBulg III,2 1690, Stara Zagora, Bulgaria)

http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptions/main?url=oi%3Fikey%3D169786%26region%3D5%26subregion%3D12%26bookid%3D188%26caller%3Dsearch%26start%3D1367%26end%3D1372

Compared to

Μ̣ενεκράτεις Θουράκειος (SEG 27:205, Pelasgiotis, Thessaly)

The second is a patronym, which in it's nominative form would be Θουράκεις.

This is just a theory but Zourazes and Thourakes could be a common name.





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2008 at 00:13
On Zraike I know only this inscription:
 
but here's not about Thrace, but about of the many strategies of Thrace. I'll give you however that Zraike and Thrace might have a common etymon, and that ζ/θ to be a meaningful evidence for our case, however before supposing what was the Thracian sound behind that Θ let's review some more evidence:
 
1) in this inscription there's another strategy called Αθιουτικη. In another inscription ( http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptions/oi?ikey=169195&bookid=187&region=5&subregion=12 ) we find the strategy Ασουτικη, which probably is the same one. The alternance is θι/σ
2) http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptions/oi?ikey=170802&bookid=140&region=5&subregion=12 Θιντας but in Dacia in an inscription there are names like Tzinta or Tzinto http://books.google.com/books?id=kn4BAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA225 . The alternance is θ/tz
3) In a series of inscriptions we find several occurences of another name:
The alternance is θι/σ
4) Many inscriptions (I won't list them all) give a Thracian epithet of Zeus:
The alternance is θι/σ
5) The name of a Thracian tribe (and its territory/strategy):
The alternance is θ/s
 
Since θ seems to know also z-based alternances but also s-based, I think it's not far-fetched to assume we are dealing here with a pair of sounds, a voiced and a voiceless one. The sound could be something like the first sounds in the English words champ and jump, or maybe as you suggested the sounds to be something like ts and dz. Or worse, there were perhaps several prounciations in different dialects, probably themselves responsible for the alternances or lack of we find in the written material.
 
What is even more interesting is that with this consideration some Thracian ath- toponyms can be now understood as coming from PIE *ak (meaning 'sharp': http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE8.html ), and could refer to some rugged terrain (mountains). Therefore it can be that even mount Athos' name is the Hellenization of a Thracian toponym.


Edited by Chilbudios - 17-Nov-2008 at 00:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2008 at 21:38
Well done Chilbudios.
I never thought checking up the same words in Greek and Latin writting to see the phonetic differences.

Btw, is there any known etymology of Denseletae? Read in Greek it's like reading "those who do not want". From Theleses (Θέλησης = will) and Den (δεν).

Similar forms are kakotheletae/κακοθεληταί = "those who want evil" and kalotheletae/καλοθεληταί = "those who want good". Denthelo/Δεν θέλω means litterarly "I don't want to".



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2008 at 13:16
Originally posted by Flipper Flipper wrote:

Well done Chilbudios.
I never thought checking up the same words in Greek and Latin writting to see the phonetic differences.

Btw, is there any known etymology of Denseletae? Read in Greek it's like reading "those who do not want". From Theleses (Θέλησης = will) and Den (δεν).

Similar forms are kakotheletae/κακοθεληταί = "those who want evil" and kalotheletae/καλοθεληταί = "those who want good". Denthelo/Δεν θέλω means litterarly "I don't want to".
Interesting, but then why some Greek writers (e.g. Strabo, but several others as well, I can make a list with them if you wish) give the name Δανθηληταί? And having the θ/s alternance in mind, then probably we can relate also the Thracian name Dansala(s) (e.g. http://books.google.com/books?id=XJDcYpgd8VoC&pg=PA39 ).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2008 at 13:22
Dunno. It was just a quick observation i did. Δανθηληταί doesn't say anything to me actually. 


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