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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2009 at 15:18
Whenever I used to see RMS Queen Elizabeth going down Southampton Water I realised how beautiful she looked. It's rare in standard English though common enough in some dialects. 
 
I don't think in any I-E language there is any real connection between the grammatical gender of a noun and actual sex: it's mostly a question of morphology.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kaysaar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2009 at 02:55
Originally posted by King John King John wrote:

Pinguin, is the gender of a noun natural?  Are the two verbs "to be" used in different instances or are they interchangeable?  I know some of the Germanic languages have multiple verbs "to go" the difference is one is used for walking and the other for going by means other than ones feet.


Like Constantine said, ser and estar are not at all interchangeable. Ser is for more permanent things, and general physical or personality based descriptions. We also use ser when talking about time (es la una de la mañana, son las dos de la tarde).

Estar is for temporary states and changes. Estar is also used for locations (Aquí estamos - we are here). Additionally, when you want to use the continuous/progressive verb tenses (I am walking/I was walking etc.), you'll use estar too.

That's a 30-second exposé of Ser y Estar. If you like this you'll love 'por' y 'para'

There are two really great ways to work on listening comprehension in any language:

First, you can watch Spanish language movies with the subtitles on in Spanish. This will help you create both visual and auditory connections in a language, which is very important. You will also learn the speaking rhythms of Spanish, which can be very different from English. You'll also learn some all important slang.

The other thing that I did in Spanish classes, as well as something I use as a teacher in my ESL classes, is to take a song, and work with the printed out lyrics. Once you have those, you can look at the vocab you may or may not know, and then sing along! You'll feel silly, but it will help you work on your pronunciation too. For Spanish music, I really like Estopa, El Canto del Loco, Juanes, Maldita Nerea etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2009 at 03:03
Ser and Estar are very different, indeed.
 
Soy loco (I am crazy), means I am fooling around or making jokes.
Estoy loco means I am mad.
 
Soy enfermo (I am sick) means I have an invalidating illness, specially mental illness
Estoy enfermo means I have a health problem, either temporary or not like flu or cancer!
 
Soy rico (I am rick) means I have a lot of money. Estoy rico it has a sexual connotation.
 
Soy inteligente (I am intelligent) it is used to describe mental skills. Estoy inteligente doesn't make much sense.
 
In general, Ser it is used for a permanent condition, while Estar it is used for a transitory condition, but not always. For instance, "esta perdido" (It is lost) it very well be a permanent condition. "es (un) perdido", on the other hand, means a person lost its moral.
 
 
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kaysaar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2009 at 03:11
From an English point of view, there are actually five Spanish verbs that translate into 'to be' (ser, estar, haber, hacer, and tener). Other tricky parts are understanding when to use the subjunctive, learning to use gustar, as well as differentiating between the imperfecto and pretérito(indefinido).

The other funny thing about estar is that you say 'él está muerto' (he's dead) which I always thought was peculiar because last time I checked, death is fairly permanent.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2009 at 03:58
You said "esta muerto" because it used to be alived, specialy when the dead happened relatively recently. "Esta" in that case shows a change of state.
the verbs "haber" y "tener" both matches "to have". Hacer is simply "to do".
 
It is curious you notice those verbs. I had forgotten we have two verbs "to have" as well.
Hovewer, the verb tener means "to own" and it is only used in those cases where "to have" is associated with property. On the other hand "Haber" is always used in past tense with a past participle. For instance "he hecho" means "I have done".
 
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2009 at 04:41
Also with ser and estar when describing location. Estoy refers to where you are now e.g. estoy aqui, and soy refers to origin e.g. soy de mexico.
It is not the challenges a people face which define who they are, but rather the way in which they respond to those challenges.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2009 at 05:11
Thank you for your responses.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kaysaar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2009 at 11:32
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

the verbs "haber" y "tener" both matches "to have". Hacer is simply "to do".


Those are the simplest and most common translations of those verbs - but they all translate into a form of 'to be' in English as well.

Tengo hambre - I am hungry (literally I have hunger, but we don't say that in English)
Hace sol - it is sunny (it does sun - again, just something we don't say)
No hay quien haga- there is not anyone who does that. (no have anyone who does that - just not said)

And that's true about estar muerto - but it's a little counterintuitive when first learning the differences between the two.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2009 at 05:01

"I am hungry" not only translate into "Tengo hambre" (I have hunger), but more directly into "Estoy hambriento", which is exactly "I am hungry".

"Hace sol" it is never used and sounds funny, instead "hay sol" (there is sun) is used. also we use "Esta soleado" (It is sunny)
 
haga in (no hay quien lo haga) it is a conjugation of the verb hacer (to make; to do) instead of haber (to have).
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 12-May-2009 at 05:02
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2009 at 08:27
Originally posted by hugoestr hugoestr wrote:

Most of the nouns in Spanish seem to have taken the ablative case as the nominative, thus ending in -o for masculine and -a for feminine nouns.
Actually in Spanish like in other Romance languages it is the accusative case which was preserved. In Vulgar Latin the case endings were lost, thus most nouns ended in vowels. The -o endings come from former -u-s

Edited by Chilbudios - 12-May-2009 at 08:31
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kaysaar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2009 at 13:13
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

"I am hungry" not only translate into "Tengo hambre" (I have hunger), but more directly into "Estoy hambriento", which is exactly "I am hungry".

Which would you consider as more common in regular conversation?

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

"Hace sol" it is never used and sounds funny, instead "hay sol" (there is sun) is used. also we use "Esta soleado" (It is sunny)

 


I think that's kind of funny because 'hace sol' is how they teach it to us in the USA. Is this distinct to Chile or is this consistant throughout all of Central and South America?

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


haga in (no hay quien lo haga) it is a conjugation of the verb hacer (to make; to do) instead of haber (to have).
 


I'm absolutely aware that haga  = hacer (present subjunctive), but unless I'm mistaken, hay is considered an auxiliary verb derived from haber (no hay que lo haga ---> no había quien lo hiciera/hiciese).

One of the things to remember is that even though many of these phrases can be re-translate into Spanish using ser/estar, when they are initially translated into English, from Spanish, we have to use 'to be' because of the way English works. That was my point above.


Edited by Kaysaar - 12-May-2009 at 13:22
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2009 at 14:09
(1) Tengo hambre es lo más común
 
(2) Hace sol is probably a Mexicanism. It doesn't make much sense, if you think a bit about it.
 
(3) The best translation for hay is "there is". So, it is a form of the verb to be. The verb haber is only used in past participle. Yo he hecho, el ha sido, etc. (I have done, he has been, etc)


Edited by pinguin - 12-May-2009 at 14:11
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mixcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2009 at 17:47
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

(2) Hace sol is probably a Mexicanism. It doesn't make much sense, if you think a bit about it.

Then what about hace calor, hace frío, etc.?
 
Quote (3) The best translation for hay is "there is". So, it is a form of the verb to be. The verb haber is only used in past participle. Yo he hecho, el ha sido, etc. (I have done, he has been, etc)

That's exactly his point, hay translates as a form of to be, yet it is not a form of estar or ser. IIRC it was originally a form of haber (think of the subjuntivo of haber, haya).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2009 at 20:16
Originally posted by Kaysaar Kaysaar wrote:


The other funny thing about estar is that you say 'él está muerto' (he's dead) which I always thought was peculiar because last time I checked, death is fairly permanent.
You need to understand the religious culture from which Spanish developed. The use of estar (temporary state) when discussing death is probably based on Christian theology.  
 
Good luck with Spanish. One good thing about Spanish is that unlike mind bending French, how you read Spanish is how you say Spanish and vis versa. There are only a few exceptions.


Edited by Cryptic - 12-May-2009 at 20:21
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kaysaar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2009 at 20:26
Originally posted by Mixcoatl Mixcoatl wrote:


That's exactly his point, hay translates as a form of to be, yet it is not a form of estar or ser. IIRC it was originally a form of haber (think of the subjuntivo of haber, haya).


From La Real Academia Española:

http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltGUIVerbos?origen=RAE&IDVERBO=6903

If you look under presente del indicativo, there is hay, derived from haber.

EDIT - Cryptic - good call on the Catholic perspective - I hadn't considered that.


Edited by Kaysaar - 12-May-2009 at 20:50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2009 at 21:04
Formally, "hay" it is a special case of the verb haber, indeed, but only in third person, and lacks subject Confused...
 
Part of the explanation, follows. The full explanation is found here: http://culturitalia.uibk.ac.at/hispanoteca/Foro-preguntas/ARCHIVO-Foro/Haber-hay-hab%C3%ADa.htm

En cuanto al haber como verbo impersonal, en este uso el verbo haber solo tiene una persona y es la tercera de singular en cada tiempo, el presente tiene la forma especial hay.

El sustantivo que acompaña a la tercera persona del verbo haber con sentido impersonal no es su sujeto, sino su complemento directo. Lo que se puede comprobar sustituyendo este sustantivo por el correspondiente pronombre personal:

No hay cerveza. > No la hay.

No hay dinero. > No lo hay.

No hay perspectivas. > No las hay.

No hay ninguna oportunidad. > No la hay.

No hay esperanzas. > No las hay.

Si el sustantivo que acompaña a la forma impersonal de haber fuera su sujeto, sería sustituible por el pronombre personal en nominativo: el, ella, ellos, ellas.

"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kaysaar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2009 at 23:19
I like that article - good stuff Pinguin! I've enjoyed debating grammar with you thus far - it's fun!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2009 at 23:35
It is weird. I have spoken Spanish since four and I never figured it out that "hay" derivated from "haber".... It doesn't make sense to me. I better keep studying Mapudungun :)
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kaysaar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2009 at 00:51
The same type of thing happened to me when I started to teach English - I noticed patterns and rules I never knew existed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2009 at 02:07
Perhaps the best approach is to learn languages based on translation of "patterns" of whole frases, rather than trying to understand the mechanics of verbs, and teoretical stuff.
 
For instance, people should know equivalences like these:
 
It is hot=hace calor
Where do you go?=¿Dónde vas?
How do you do?=¿Cómo estás?
How much is it?=¿Cúanto vale?
What have you been working on?=¿En qué has estado trabajando?
What did you do?=¿Qué hiciste?
 
Etc.
 
With a collection of about five hundred of those pre-build frases, memorized and practised, people start to speak a foreign language very naturally. The problem is that nobody teaches languages that way. The analyrical approach of teaching verbs, adjectives, nouns and all the part of the speach, and detailed grammar rules, makes things more complex than necessary. That's what I think, anyways.
 


Edited by pinguin - 13-May-2009 at 02:09
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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