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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2008 at 01:01
Here is a summary of what is going on in Danbolt Chapter 6

Chapter 6
Grammar Point 1
Questions
-Earlier we saw that a way to form questions is by introducing the question with an interrogative word ie: what (hva), where (hvor), how (hvordan), etc. At the end of this statement you will find, as in English, a question mark.
-It is common in Norway to use the negative when asking questions.
          EG
          -Heter han ikke Andrew? (Isn't he called Andrew?)
          -Bor du ikke i Oslo? (Don't you live in Oslo?)
    -When answering yes to questions posed in this manner one responds with jo. This form of yes is only used when answering a negative question ie:Isn't he call Andrew? The response to this question would be: Jo, han heter Andrew
     -When answering a regular question (a question not formed with a negative) one uses the form ja.

Grammar Point 2
VERBS: Past tense
We have already seen the present tense (Jeg reiser til New York City - I travel/am traveling to NYC). If one is talking about action that happened in the past one uses the past tense. In Norwegian the past tense (for regular verbs) is formed as follows:

infinitive              present tense               past tense
å reise (to travel) reiser (travel(s))          reiste (travelled)
å kjøre (to drive) kjører (drive(s))          kjørte (drove)
å spise (to eat)      spiser (eat(s))            spiste (ate)

-there are four groups of regular verbs (these verbs are called weak and will be discussed in the summaru of the next two chapters). Weak verbs form the past tense by adding a dental preterite to the stem of the verb. Notice that the three verbs mentioned above all for the past by adding a -te to the stem of these words. The final -te is a dental preterite ending. There are also strong verbs these verbs form the past tense by changing their internal vowel - more on that later.

Grammar Point 3
Adverbs
-There are other adverbs like her and der that have two forms dictated by motion and non-motion. Here is a list of other adverbs that function like this.

with movement                                         stationary
bort (away/off)                                             borte
-han kjører bort (he drives away)             de er borte (they are away)

opp   (up)                                                       oppe (up/upstairs)
ned   (down)                                                  nede (down/downstairs)
ut      (out)                                                      ute (out/outside)
inn   (in)                                                         inne (in/inside)
hjem (home)                                                  hjemme (at home)

That is pretty much all that is going on in chapter 6. There is a fourth grammar point that has to do with Arithmetic and I don't feel like typing that out. I hope you guys find in helpful.

Edited by King John - 06-Jun-2008 at 20:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2008 at 15:53
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

About the going to town expression, in Danish we commonly use to state it like:
 
"Jeg/han/hun tager til byen i morgen" ="I/he/she/ am/is/is going to town tomorrow" - where we use "tager til"(taking to) instead of "going to."
The means of transportation doesn't matter.
I think this is also used in Norwegian and Swedish. 
In that tradition, English has "I'm off to town/Paris/a funeral/whatever tomorrow". But I was mostly interested here in the distinct verbs for 'go' (by vehicle or otherwise), rather than the permutations specifying exactly the manner of going ('I rode/ swam/ ran/ drove/ hopped" and so on, which I guess all languages have). 
 
If I can go again, a standard way of asking a question in English and Irish is "He did it, didn't he?", "we were going to the cinema tonight, weren't we?", "You have been there, haven't you?"
 
Does that reversed verb tag construction exist in any Scandinavian languages?  


Edited by gcle2003 - 03-Jun-2008 at 15:54
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2008 at 16:58
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

 
If I can go again, a standard way of asking a question in English and Irish is "He did it, didn't he?", "we were going to the cinema tonight, weren't we?", "You have been there, haven't you?"
 
Does that reversed verb tag construction exist in any Scandinavian languages?  


Nope, at least not in Swedish. Different constructions are used where you do the reversing (1st and 3rd are interchangeable):
"Han gjorde det, eller hur?"
"Visst skulle vi gå på bio ikväll?"
"Du har varit där, inte sant?"

"Eller hur" litererally means "or how".

"Visst" means "sure".

"Inte sant" means literally "not true".


Edited by Styrbiorn - 03-Jun-2008 at 17:02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2008 at 17:04
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

About the going to town expression, in Danish we commonly use to state it like:
 
"Jeg/han/hun tager til byen i morgen" ="I/he/she/ am/is/is going to town tomorrow" - where we use "tager til"(taking to) instead of "going to."
The means of transportation doesn't matter.
I think this is also used in Norwegian and Swedish. 
In that tradition, English has "I'm off to town/Paris/a funeral/whatever tomorrow". But I was mostly interested here in the distinct verbs for 'go' (by vehicle or otherwise), rather than the permutations specifying exactly the manner of going ('I rode/ swam/ ran/ drove/ hopped" and so on, which I guess all languages have). 
 
If I can go again, a standard way of asking a question in English and Irish is "He did it, didn't he?", "we were going to the cinema tonight, weren't we?", "You have been there, haven't you?"
 
Does that reversed verb tag construction exist in any Scandinavian languages?  
 
Oh yes - we have that as well - in exactly the same manner..
 
"He did it, didn't he?" ~ Han gjorde det, gjorde han ikke?
"We were going to the cinema tonight, weren't we?" ~ Vi skulle i biografen i aften, skulle vi ikke?
"You have been there, haven't you?" ~ Du har været der, har du ikke?
 
Another way to express the part after the comma (the negation) in all three examples is to say "ikke sandt?" - directly translated "not true?" and equivalent to the German "nicht wahr?"
 
Normaly the Scandinavian word for "Yes" is "Ja", but in answering a negation like the examples above, we change it to a "Jo".
 
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2008 at 18:38
Interesting. It's a rare construction, apparently.
 
So the question is, did the Danes pick it up from the old English who got it from the Britons, or did the English get it from the Danes and the Britons both, or what?
 
Not that I expect an answer since we don't have much evidence of the spoken languages at the time they were all mingling.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2008 at 00:14
Here is a summary of the grammar points found in Danbolt Chapter 7

Chapter 7
Grammar Point 1
Personal Pronouns (Subject form)
-These personal pronouns are used to represent the subject of a sentence.
     EG
     1st sg.   Jeg - I
     2nd sg. Du - You
     3rd sg. Han/hun/den/det - he/she/it

     1st pl. Vi - we
     2nd pl. dere - you
     3rd pl. de - they

Grammar Point 2
Possessives
-Possessives give information about who owns something
-These pronouns are represented in the following form
     Eg
     min/mitt/mine        my/mine
     din/ditt/dine           your/yours
     hans           \                             his
     hennes          sin/sitt/sine      her/hers
     dens           /                            its
     dets          /                               its

     vår/vårt/våre             our/ours
     deres                           your/yours (pl)
     deres            sin/sitt/sine       their/theirs
-There are two things to remember about possessives
     -If you put a possessive before a noun the noun is in the indefinite, whereas if the possessive follows the noun, the noun is in the definite
           EG
           -Min tante er tykk. (My aunt is fat)
           -Tanten min er tykk (My aunt is fat)
           -Hennes bror er i fengsel (Her brother is in prison)
           -Broren hennes er i fengsel (Her brother is in prison)
     -If the possessive refers back to the subject of the sentence but is not the subject itself you use the reflexive sin in the 3rd sg and pl.

(I don't understand why there are three forms for the 1st and 2nd persons sg. and 1st pl in the possessive. Is this because min is used for the en words mitt for the et words and mine for the plurals of these words

Grammar Point 3
Verbs: Weak Groups 1 and 2
Group 1
å vente          venter            ventet   (to wait)
å rydde        rydder            ryddet   (to tidy)
å arbeide      arbeider        arbeidet (to work)
Group 2
å spise          spiser              spiste (to eat)
å drepe        dreper             drepte (to kill)
å reise          reiser               reiste (to travel)

Grammar Point 4
leke/spille to play
-Leke is used for playing with toys, whereas spille is used for any other kind of playing (sports, games, gambling, musical instruments, theater, etc.)
-Both of these verbs are weak and belong to group 2
     -spille loses an "l" when forming the past tense.

Edited by King John - 06-Jun-2008 at 20:47
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote EbbeLockert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2008 at 12:47
Originally posted by King John King John wrote:


(I don't understand why there are three forms for the 1st and 2nd persons sg. and 1st pl in the possessive. Is this because min is used for the en words mitt for the et words and mine for the plurals of these words


CorrectWink 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 19:25
Here is a summary of what is going on in Danbolt Chapter 8. Thank you EbbeLockert for the clarification.

Chapter 8
Grammar Point 1
VERBS
-So far we have seen two forms of conjugating verbs (the Present and the Past). There is another for of the past called the Perfect. The difference between the Past and the Perfect forms is as follows:
     -Past: describes something which has already happened
     IE: Jeg hadde vondt i hodet i går. (I had a headache yesterday)
     -Perfect: This tense is also about the past, however, it could still be going on
     IE: Jeg har hatt vondt i hodet hele dagen. (I have had a headache all day)
-The Perfect tense is formed with the verb å ha (to have) and the past participle (ppp), as in English.
     -Sometimes the past participle (ppp) is the same as the past tense form (this is true for group 1 weak verbs). Often the ppp is an entirely different form of the verb.

Grammar Point 2
Groups of Weak Verbs
-There are four groups of weak verbs. Most weak verbs belong to groups 1 and 2 but some fall into groups 3 and 4.
     
     -Group 1 (all are listed infinitive, pres, past. perfect
     å klippe     klipper     klippet     har klippet (to cut)
     å kaste     kaster     kastet     har kastet (to throw)
     å stoppe     stopper     stoppet     har stoppet (to stop)

     -Group 2
     å smile     smiler     smilte     har smilt (to smile)
     å røre     rører     rørte     har rørt (to move)
     å tenke     tenker     tenkte     har tenkt (to think)

     -Group 3
     å leve     lever     levde     har levd (to live/be alive)
     å prøve     prøver     prøvde     har prøvd (to try)

     -Group 4
     å bo     bor     bodde     har bodd (to live/reside)
     å nå     når     nådde     har nådd (to reach)
     å tro     tror     trodde    har trodd (to believe)

Grammar Point 3
Some Strong Verbs
-listed in the same form as the weak verbs listed above

     å drikke     drikker      drakk     har drukket (to drink)
     å brekke     brekker     brakk     har brukket (to break)
     å hjelpe     hjelper     hjalp     har hjulpet (to help)
     å ligge     ligger      lå     har ligget (to lie)
     å set     ser     så     har sett (to set)
     å si     sier     sa      har sagt (to say)

Grammar Point 4
Personal Pronouns
-We have already seen these pronouns in the subject form, now we will look at them in their object form.

1st sg     Jeg (I)       meg (me)
2nd sg   du (you)    deg (you)
3rd sg    han           ham (him)    \
               hun           henne (her)   \
               den           den (it)           /    seg (reflexive pronoun)
               det            det (it)          /
1st pl      vi               oss (us)
2nd pl     dere        dere (you)
3rd pl      de            dem (them)        seg (reflexive pronoun)

-these pronouns are used in the same way as in English

Grammar Point 5
Reflexive Pronouns
-The reflexive forms for the 1st and 2nd sg are the same as the object form.
     Jeg setter meg    (I sit (myself) down).
     du setter deg
     han/hun setter seg

     Vi setter oss
     Dere setter dere
     De setter seg

Grammar Point 6
Reflexive Verbs
-There are many verbs in Norwegian that are reflexive

     Jeg føler meg dårlig (I feel ill)
     Jeg skal gifte meg (I shall marry)
     Hun skal gifte seg (he'll marry)
     Vi skal gifte oss (We'll marry)
     De skal gifte seg (They'll marry)
     Hun liker seg i Oslo (He likes to be in Oslo)

That's pretty much all there is for chapter 8. I hope all who are using this find it useful.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 19:46
Hi there. I just took up learning Norwegian....and got a question: could someone give me a full list of Norwegian strong verbs please??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 21:10
Originally posted by Slayertplsko Slayertplsko wrote:

Hi there. I just took up learning Norwegian....and got a question: could someone give me a full list of Norwegian strong verbs please??
The book that I am summarizing here has a list of strong verbs at the back that spans 2 pages or so. If I am feeling very industrious I will try to copy it out for you. (The book that I am using is Teach Yourself: Norwegian it is authored by Margaretha Danbolt Simons. It is part of the Teach Yourself series of language courses.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 21:17
That's a different book that I have. In the mine, there is the list of IV two pages long, but it has only about 80 verbs, and that's not a complete list.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 21:43
Sorry, I have another silly question.

I found out today, that my favourite Old Norse word 'bjórr' is missing in Norwegian. Only øl.
Is it really so, that øl is the only word for beer??? It is my favourite word, together with mjóðr.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 21:53
You could try the 201 Series (if they make one for Norwegian). If that doesn't work you could try Norwegian Verbs and Essentials of Grammar by Louis janus. I've looked on the net to see if there might be something I can cut and paste onto here, and much to my chagrin I was unable to find anything of use.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 22:02
Originally posted by Slayertplsko Slayertplsko wrote:

Sorry, I have another silly question.

I found out today, that my favourite Old Norse word 'bjórr' is missing in Norwegian. Only øl.
Is it really so, that øl is the only word for beer??? It is my favourite word, together with mjóðr.

It still exists dialectally in Swedish, so there's a big chance the same goes for Norwegian.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 11:16
The English have both beer and ale so we need to keep two words (though real ale is going out of fashion - maybe already has - and 'real ale' is now used as a synonym for 'beer' especially bitter. This is to be deplored, but what can you do? Hops and carlsbergensis have taken over.
 
I'm getting nostalgic for a boilermaker - anywhere in Wessex when I was young a mix of brown ale and mild beer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 16:42
Ale, form Old English Alo, Old Saxon/Scythian Alu (Beer):
 
 
It is certainly an old Iranian (Scythian) loanword, ultimately going back to a Germanic source (Proto-Germanic *aluđ 'beer' < PIE *alut-). The root is still present in Osset. älūton, and was also borrowed (probably from an early Ossetian source) into Georg. ludi (dial. aludi) 'beer' - ...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 17:00
Interesting. I had no idea Scythians had some loan words from Germanic language (it's possible though, the word exchange isn't anything extraordinary).

Thanks Cyrus. (but you could resist putting that 'saxon/scythian'...I've got used to though)


Edited by Slayertplsko - 10-Jun-2008 at 17:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 17:15
It seems to be completely sufficient to indicate connection between two languages if you can just find two words that have a couple of letters in common, and aren't entirely different in meaning.
 
Anyway ale in English isn't beer in English, or at least wasn't until modern times when ale itself dropped out of fashion, and marketers started confusing the issue. Nobody made beer in England till the late medieval period, and I don't think they much did anywhere else, although I note wikipedia says there is mention of using hops in the late eleventh century in Germany. It was still a couple of hundred years before beer was made there in any quantity.


Edited by gcle2003 - 10-Jun-2008 at 17:18
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 17:45
However it be, Cyrus' source clearly proposes this connection:

Common Germanic=>Old Iranian=>Proto-North Caucasian

I know that it was even borrowed to Old Church Slavonic, but I wonder where it is today.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 18:44
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

Ale, form Old English Alo, Old Saxon/Scythian Alu (Beer):

 


 

It is certainly an old Iranian (Scythian) loanword, ultimately going back to a Germanic source (Proto-Germanic *aluđ 'beer' < PIE *alut-). The root is still present in Osset. älūton, and was also borrowed (probably from an early Ossetian source) into Georg. ludi (dial. aludi) 'beer' - ...


One minor problem. The word for ale/beer in Anglo-Saxon/Old English is not alo, as you claim. It is ealu: "ealu [] n (ealoð/ealoð) ale, beer; an intoxicating drink [gen ealoð; dat ealoð; nom/acc pl."1 Other than that problem your source does not talk about Old English and Old Saxon. It does however talk about Old Iranic (Scythian). As you can see from your source the etymology of ale is based in Proto-Germanic from there it goes into Old Iranian then Osset and so on.

Let's try and keep this thread on topic. We are discussing the Scandinavian languages and learning one, specifically Norwegian.
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