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_ turul _ View Drop Down
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    Posted: 08-Apr-2008 at 13:06
dear forum members,

i have found this website while i was searching for some information about turkic history. i am a turkish guy living in germany (that´s my excuse for my low english skills Wink) and of alevi belief. well, alevi is a modern word that is used since a few decades. the original denomination is kizilbash (red head). i´m interested in our origin. since alevis don´t have an own written history, its a difficult issue.

we are usually considered as descendants of turkmen tribes who came from khorassan.
i personally don´t believe this because i can´t see any connection between todays turkmens and turkish alevis, except having a similar language which counts for all turkic people. not to forget that turkmens are suni muslims.

so i hope maybe some of you have more knowledge about this issue.


Edited by _ turul _ - 08-Apr-2008 at 13:07
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Turkoglu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2008 at 13:25
Kizilbas Alevi's were mostly Turkmens at Ottoman period.
You can find some shamanic rituels at Kizilbas Alevi tradition.
 
 
 
 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2008 at 13:30
Qizilbash was the name of the Turkmen tribe which fought for the Safavids and that is why they are Shia Alavi - the origins are indeed Central Asia.  And "Red Head" refers to the red hats worn by this tribe.  700 Years with marriages to west asian women will obviously result in different appearances between mdern Turkmen and Qizilbashians.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote _ turul _ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2008 at 16:59
hi,

yes, it´s true that ottomans also called alevis as turkmens. when we take a look at turkey, we can see kurds, laz, zazas, circassians, chechens... they did not forgot who they are.
but we don´t have a memory of beeing turkmen or belonging to any tribe.

i guess you consider the semah dance as a shamanic ritual. but i think that this is something that originated in islamic sufism. if it were a turkic-shamanic ritual, we would have an own name for it because semah is arabic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2008 at 17:13
I know it originated from Sufiism.  Qizilbashian origins are not a mystery, much was recorded about their medival history by the Safavids and unfoprtunately it's all in Persian.  We have had some members with extensive education from that period but unfortunately they are no longer active.  I think if you message the member Gok Turuk he will be able to help you, he has extensive experience with Persian hisoriography regarding Middle Eastern Turks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote _ turul _ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2008 at 17:22
ok, i´ll do that. thank you Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote erkut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2008 at 18:14
Well it depends on which Kizilbash are we talking about. Because there are Arabic, Kurdish and Turkish Kizilbashes in Turkey. (But ofcourse Turkish Kizilbashes cames from Central Asia)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote _ turul _ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2008 at 18:45
about the turkish ones. my family is from a village in yozgat (central anatolia). you´ll find only turkish alevis in yozgat. the kurdish alevis are even more confusing since they also use turkish for their religious issues while zazas use their own language.

for those who speak turkish, here an article that i have found. it´s about a religious group in kirgizistan named laci who seem to be similar to turkish alevis.

Yesevilik tarih içinde zamanla etkisini yitirdi ve kayboldu. Günümüzde Orta Asya'da Kırgızistan'ın dağlık bölgelerinde yaşayan Laçiler ile Anadolu'da ve Balkanlar'da yaşayan Bektaşiler, Yeseviler'in devamı olarak kabul ediliyor.

Araştırmacı-yazar Ali Yaman günümüz Yeseviliği ile ilgili olarak yaptığı araştırmalarda, Kırgızistan daki Fergana Vadisi'nde yaşayan Laçiler'in tarikatın Orta Asya'daki izleri olduğunu ortaya koyuyor. Yesevilik ritüellerinin günümüzde halen Aleviler, Bektaşiler ve Laçiler'de sürdüğünün anlatıldığı araştırmada, Laçilerin isminin zikir sırasında çıkartılan seslerden geldiği belirtiliyor.

ANADOLU'DA BEKTAŞİLİK
Yeseviliği Anadolu'ya getirenlerin Hacı Bektaş-ı Veli, Abdal Musa, Geyikli Baba ve Sarı Saltuk olduğu sanılıyor. XV. yüzyılın sonlarında Firdevsi tarafından yazılmış olan Menakıb-ı Hacı Bektaş-ı Veli veya Hacı Bektaş-ı Veli Vilayetnamesi adlarıyla bilinen eser Yesevilikle ilgili bilgi veren önemli eserler. Vilayethamede Hacı Bektaş-ı Veli'- nin, Ahmet Yesevi'nin halifelerinden Lokman Perende'nin halifesi olduğu kaydediliyor.

BEKTAŞİ-LAÇİN BENZERLİĞİ
Bektaşilik'te ve Laçilik'te Ahmet Yesevi'nin "Hikmetler"inde belirtilen kadınlı erkekli, sesli zikiri esas alan, raks ve sema ve müziğe yer veren bir zikir anlayışı var. Ayrıca hem Laçiler, hem de Alevi-Bektaşiler arasındaki zikir esnasında kullanılan dil sade Türkçe olup, halk dilidir. Laçiler günümüze kadar kadın ve erkek birlikte zikir yaptıkları için sapkınlıkla suçlanıp baskı gördükleri için kendilerini saklamış. Günümüzde sema gösterilerini bile nadir olarak yapan Laçilerde pir, "Ata", "İşan" veya "İşan-halife" gibi adlarla adlandırılıyor....

http://arsiv.sabah.com.tr/2005/10/20/gun119.html


Edited by _ turul _ - 08-Apr-2008 at 18:46
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2008 at 22:41
Quote _turul_
 have found this website while i was searching for some information about turkic history. i am a turkish guy living in germany (that´s my excuse for my low english skills Wink) and of alevi belief. well, alevi is a modern word that is used since a few decades. the original denomination is kizilbash (red head). i´m interested in our origin. since alevis don´t have an own written history, its a difficult issue.
 
Alevi have a strong oral history, there is a written history however, alot was supressed by the late Ottoman establishment. (The early Ottoman Sultans were similar to Bektashi).
 
Alevi is a spiritual form of Islam, its roots are in a Turkic-Sufi understanding, when the Turks converted to Islam in central asia there were two forms. 
 - The establishment
 - The masses
 
The establishment being predominantly Sunni, Hanafi Maturidi and the masses heavily influenced by the Khodjas most importantly for the Turkic tribes, Ahmad Yasavi.
 
The Yasavi interpretations was suited to nomadic, semi-nomadic Turks, it didn't try to change their culture or lifestyles, they could carry on with their ways while also being muslim.
 
The Alperens were sent from the Yasavi schools to spread Islam among the Turks, when they started spreading into Anatolia the Alperens were very sucessfull in spreading the faith. They established muslim brotherhoods, one of the first female organisations, Baciyan-i Rumi, were warriors and had trade guilds.
 
During the Seljuk and Beylik eras there were many Sufi leaders, Baba Ilyas, Baba Ishak, Haci Bayram, Haci Bektashi, Yunus Emre...
 
How does this relate to Alevi?
 
The Alevi tradition stems from their Turkmen roots, its heavily connected with the nomadic/semi-nomadic lifestyle. The Turkmens wanted to keep their lifestyles, tribal and clandestine loyalties, the authorities were not too fond of this. These communities were sufi muslim and retained their oral history, tracing it to Central Asia-Horassan. The sufi leaders were supported by the masses and led rebellions against the establishment who tried to change their lifestyles.

Quote
we are usually considered as descendants of turkmen tribes who came from khorassan.
i personally don´t believe this because i can´t see any connection between todays turkmens and turkish alevis, except having a similar language which counts for all turkic people. not to forget that turkmens are suni muslims.
 
Along the way from Central Asia, they picked up some religous ideas from other major Sufi movements.
The Yesevi movement was not Shia, some of the Turkmen tribes later became influenced by the rise in Shia power in Iran and Turkey.
 
However, the traditions of Turkmenistan muslims and Alevi reveal many similarities.
 - Wishing trees
 - Saints
 - Ancestor worship
 - Shrines
 - Dedeler/Aqsaqal
 - The Ozan/Ashig/Bakshy culture
 - Woman are more free in society, less restricted.
 
The Turkmenistan Turkmens resisting the growing power of Iran rejected Shia Islamic interpretations, however, some Turkmen tribes in the Ottoman state feeling neglected and still having allegiance to the tribal confederations of Karakoyunlu, Akkoyunlu joined with Shah Ismail founding the Safavids.
 

 


Edited by Bulldog - 08-Apr-2008 at 22:46
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2008 at 23:13
Quote _turul_
yes, it´s true that ottomans also called alevis as turkmens. when we take a look at turkey, we can see kurds, laz, zazas, circassians, chechens... they did not forgot who they are.
but we don´t have a memory of beeing turkmen or belonging to any tribe.
 
Turul did you grow up in Germany or Turkey?
Do you know what village or town your family originates from?
 
The reason I'm asking these questions is that alot of Alevi can trace their tribal lineage via local records. Here are some sites with info that might help and if you can read, Faruk Sumer, Oguz Turkleri.
 
 

Quote _turul_
about the turkish ones. my family is from a village in yozgat (central anatolia).
 
Yozgat was formerly known as Bozok, you can research about Bozoks, also the Capanogullari had a heavy presence in the region, they originated from Horassan.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote erkut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2008 at 08:08
 
 
maybe this site might help you too...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote _ turul _ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2008 at 20:11
Originally posted by Bulldog Bulldog wrote:

 
However, the traditions of Turkmenistan muslims and Alevi reveal many similarities.
 - Wishing trees
 - Saints
 - Ancestor worship
 - Shrines
 - Dedeler/Aqsaqal
 - The Ozan/Ashig/Bakshy culture
 - Woman are more free in society, less restricted.
 
The Turkmenistan Turkmens resisting the growing power of Iran rejected Shia Islamic interpretations, however, some Turkmen tribes in the Ottoman state feeling neglected and still having allegiance to the tribal confederations of Karakoyunlu, Akkoyunlu joined with Shah Ismail founding the Safavids. 


I was born and grew up in Germany. Unfortunately there is no elder in my family that i can ask. My great-grandfather and his 3 brothers died in the wars prior to the founding of the republic.
So my grandfather and all his cousins grew up without any knowledge who they are.

Yes, some of those things resemble Alevi culture. We have shrines (Tekke) and saints (Yatar) who we worship. I know, this is definitive not an element of Islam.

I said that we don´t have a memory of a tribal membership, but as you mentioned Dede...

well, we are organized as Ocaks. There is always a Ocak-family where the Dede comes from and a couple of Alevi families who belong to this Ocak. And only the lineage of these Ocaks can become Dede.

I guess Shah Ismail had a very deep impact on us. Alevis love him while they hate Ottoman sultans.

Thank you for the Links. I also know this Alevi Forum but most of the members there seem to have a political intent.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2008 at 20:18

Have you tried asking the Dede? Yozgat was an important centre during the Ottoman era, there are archives which list tribes, clans, large families etc especially in the tax documents.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kerimoglu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2008 at 16:52
Qizilbash is the name of the turkish (or turkic) tribe of formers of Safavvid Empire, and rulers of the same empire till Abbas 1st. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Efraz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2008 at 17:36
If you mean Alevi by Qizilbash then the origins of the idea goes beyond Safavvid Era.

Qizilbash is not name of a tribe it's certain term for specific people during Ottoman age who are also Alevi. Yes, because of their red turbans(sariq). If you only ask the term Qizilbash then Zagros' explanation is nearly accurate. But the original names of the two great Qizilbash tribes(or ashirats) were: Tahtaci and Chepni

Those people are the same who had rebelled against Seljuq-Mongol rule under Baba Ishak. Same people who have spread their ideas throughout Anatolia by certain leaders such as Hadji Baktash, Sari Saltuq, Akhi Evren, Mentesh, Tapduk Emre etc. These had their doctrine roots from three sources 1-Ahmad Yasavi from Turkestan 2-Islamic Sufiizm mainly Ibn Arabi school of Cairo 3-Shia schools of Iran; most notably Erdebil:(this last one was later influenced in classic Ottoman era)

Turkomans such as Qizilbashes always followed the teachings of such men. Some of those were semi-urban shiekhs(in cities like Bursa, Ankara and Eskishehir) some pastoral dervishes moving with Turkoman tribes. But they still exist in nearly every region in Turkey.

In short from the perspective of today there are many Alavis in Turkey some Turkoman, some Arabic some Kurdish. But Qizilbash historically refers to the Turkomans.

Counting them in the Heterodoxy of Islam would not fall far from the truth. Like all heterodoxies they remained secret, they rebelled and they preserved many things from their previous religions and original cultures.


Edited by Efraz - 26-May-2008 at 17:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AlienozTR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Feb-2009 at 18:37
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

Qizilbash was the name of the Turkmen tribe which fought for the Safavids and that is why they are Shia Alavi - the origins are indeed Central Asia.  And "Red Head" refers to the red hats worn by this tribe. 


Kyzylbash takes its name from Kyzyl Börk. Turkmens of Anatolia used to wear Red Caps. On the other side, convert Janissaries used to wear White Bork. (Ak Bork)

"Kyzylbash identity" is based on the war between White and Red caps. White bork won at the end and Kyzylbash were expelled. These Kyzylbash became the core of Safavid army. They were then called "Shahseven" lovers of Shah.

These Kyzylbash had difficulties in adapting into Shia faith, they were heterodox Muslims not Sunni nor Shia. Non-practising Muslims which were influenced by both Islam and Central Asian traditions.

Picture of Janissaries wearing Ak Bork.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HungryWolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Mar-2009 at 14:16
Kizilbashes were Turcomans from Akkoyunlu and Karakoyunlu (Whitesheeped and Blacksheeped) they joined to Shah Ismayil Hatai in 1500s and created Safavid Empire. There were 68 of 71 amirs kizilbashes turcomans in Safavid empire and Shah Ismail Hatai was grandchild of the Akkoyunlu han Uzun Hasan (Tall Hasan)


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