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Vietcoung ![]() Immortal Guard ![]() ![]() Joined: 23-Feb-2006 Location: Vietnam Status: Offline Points: 0 |
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I want to discuss kingdom of Champa, a very old Kingdom in ancient Vietnam. The ancient kingdom of Champa was situated in the central coast of Viet Nam at one time stretched from the Ngang Pass (pressent Quang Binh province) to the upper basin of Dong nai river. The Cham people is believed to be of the same Javanese stock as many of the creators of the Dong Son culture further to the north. As they were intrepid seafarers, and as their land was well placed not far from the sea route from India to China, the Chams were exposed very early to Indian culture and its Brahman religion.
http://www.viettouch.com/champa/ I am specially interested in the architecture of Champa Kingdom. I am also interested in ancient Champa language and literature.
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Interesting. Based on this historical background, do you think Indochina, in general, tends today more toward Buddhist and Hindu civilization models, or more toward a Chinese Confucian model?
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The name is Indochina Pikeshot so influences from both India and China are there.China itself used to be a Buddhist country.With decades of communist rule religion has taken a backseat in both China and Indochina.Though India did not have communist rule and same is not the case with that country.Confucianism is not really a religion so I think it would be wrong to compare it to Hinduism/Budhhism. With China's economic boom I think their economic and cultural influence is more visible than that of India in Indochina right now. In short,whole thing is a mess.I've been trying to untangle some knots which I've tied myself into.Please ask more questions. |
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Cham Language Cham, a Malayo-Polynesian / Malayic language, is official ethnic community in Viet Nam. The Cham maintained a powerful kingdom that dominated the central Vietnamese coast from the 12th to the 17th century. During this period their businessmen traded throughout Southeast Asia. Boats and buffalo carts were their main means of transport and travel. There primary crop is wet rice. They are also experienced in gardening and raising livestock and poultry. Traditionally their written language used the Sanskrit system. The traditional Cham families are matriarchal. The bride’s family organizes the wedding and the couple lives with the woman’s family. Cham’s practice Hindu, Islam and Buddhism, depending upon the region. Death ritual include both burial and cremation. Handicrafts are well developed, especially silk textiles and pottery. Austro-Asiatic influences. http://www.ibike.org/ibike/vietnam/central/5-Tam%20Ky.htm
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KADLIPHALAM LE LO KADLIPHALAM
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Annam, what is now Northern Vietnam - Chinaes influence greater Champa, what is now Souther Vietnam - Indian influence greater |
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That's true. Interestingly, though, by 1978, among the 1.5 million overseas Chinese in Vietnam, about 300,000 lived in North Vietnam, the majority of whom were coal miners, factory workers, fishermen; the rest were living in the urban centres of South Vietnam where they literally controlled the most important aspects of the South Vietnamese economy. |
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On the topic of "Vietnamese surnames", I found the following quote from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_name "Virtually all family names are Chinese in origin, although a few (particularly in the south) have been traced to Cham origins, but presumably have been Vietnamized." I was wondering if there's any Vietnamese forumer here who knows anything about that. I've found more information on the Chams: http://www.cpamedia.com/articles/20010703_01/ The Champs: Survivors of a Lost Civilisation The Cham are perhaps the oldest and least-known people of Indochina. Inheritors of a proud tradition that stretches back almost two thousand years, Champa was the first Indianised Kingdom in Indochina. Its founding predates both the beginnings of Cambodia in about 550 AD, and the first major expansion of the Vietnamese south from the Red River delta of Tonkin in the mid-10th century. Our earliest records of Champa are Chinese, dating from 192 AD. In these dynastic annals the people of Lin-yi, or Champa, are described as having 'dark skin, deep-set eyes, turned up noses and frizzy hair', trends which are still often recognisable in the modern descendants of the Chams today. The annalist records that the Chams dress 'in a single piece of cotton or silk wrapped about the body. They wear their hair in a bun on the top of their head, and they pierce their ears in order to wear small metal rings. They are very clean. They wash themselves several times each day, wear perfume, and rub their bodies with a lotion made of camphor and musk'. At the peak of their power, about 12 centuries ago, the Chams controlled rich and fertile lands stretching from north of Hue, in central Annam, to the Mekong Delta in Cochinchina. Yet today Vietnamese cities like Da Nang and Nha Trang dominate these regions. Only mysterious brick temples, known familiarly as "Cham Towers", dot the skyline around Thap Cham and Po Nagar, Cha Ban and My Son, whilst in Cambodia the name of an eastern province and its capital, Kampong Cham, remain as mute testimony to the passing of a kingdom. The question arises, what happened? And where are the Chams - those that survive - today? The origin of the Chams, like that of most peoples, is lost in the mists of time. Unlike most other inhabitants of Southeast Asia north of the Malay peninsula, they are an Austronesian people, more closely linked with the islands of the Malay-Indonesian world and the Philippines than with the mainland. We can surmise - but no more - that at some distant time they migrated by sea from the Indonesian Archipelago and settled in what is now central Vietnam. The bases of what we know of early Cham society would seem to bear out this hypothesis. Unlike their Viet and Khmer neighbours, whose societies are based on intensive rice cultivation, the Cham seem to have had little time for agriculture. Champa's prosperity was based on maritime trade - and more than probably on a degree of piracy. Champa's principal exports seem to have been slaves (mainly prisoners of war) and sandalwood. This latter commodity, which was of great importance to the intensely religious societies of early Southeast Asia, brought considerable riches. ![]() Reinhard Hohler / CPA
Silver Tower, Quy Nhon. Much of this wealth seems to have been expended on building "Cham Towers" - exquisitely decorated, brick-and-sandstone keeps and temples dedicated to the first major religion of Champa, a form of Shaivite Hinduism which was introduced from India by sea during the early centuries AD. Even today, despite the ravages of time, these symbols of Cham civilisation remain impressive, not least for their masterful masonry. Layer upon layer of hard-baked brick are fitted together apparently without mortar, and yet so precisely that it is all but impossible to insert a knife blade between any two sections. The most important and extensive Cham tower complex was raised at My Son, Champa's pre-eminent religious centre, about 50 kilometres west of Da Nang. Simhapura, the political capital - known today as Tra Kieu - was located nearby, about half-way between Da Nang and My Son. Tran Ky Phuong, Director of Vietnam's excellently-appointed Cham Museum in Da Nang, explains that although there are many Cham temples and towers scattered throughout coastal southern Vietnam, the main reason there is no single major site comparable to Angkor or Pagan is because 'the Cham were traders. As such they did not have a strong attachment to the land'. Yet it was this very proximity to the sea which brought Hinduism to the Chams - their first world religious tradition - just as it would bring their second, Islam. Arab merchants reached Guangdong in southern China as early as the 7th century AD, and it seems clear that they stopped along the central Vietnamese coast en route for provisions and trade. The first concrete evidence of such intercourse - and of an Islamic presence in Vietnam - is a 10th century stone pillar inscribed in Arabic which was found near the coastal town of Phan Rang. As elsewhere in Southeast Asia, from Aceh to Sulu, Islam seems to have spread peacefully through commerce and intermarriage. The egalitarian message of the new religion may have appealed to the poorer classes, Hinduism being most closely associated with the Cham aristocracy. Be this as it may, the Cham Kingdom was destined to lose its independence before the new religion could effect a full conversion. With the emergence of the powerful Cambodian Kingdom of Angkor in about 800 AD, and the renewal of Vietnam's territorial expansion to the south just over a century later, Champa found itself hopelessly outnumbered and caught in a politico-cultural vice between Khmer Buddhism and Vietnamese Confucianism. This vice gradually tightened with the Vietnamese, in particular, pushing the Chams south towards the Mekong Delta. In 1471 the outnumbered Chams suffered a terrible defeat at the hands of the Vietnamese. 60,000 of their soldiers were reportedly killed, and another 60,000 carried into captivity. Champa was reduced to a small sliver of territory in the region of Nha Trang, which survived until 1720, when the king and many of his subjects fled to neighbouring Cambodia rather than submit to Vietnamese conquest. The Cham Diaspora dates from this period, and the diverse Cham communities later established in Cambodia, Thailand and Laos can trace their common origin to this catastrophe. Today there are about 77,000 Chams in Vietnam, living mainly in the coastal provinces of Thuan Hai, Khanh Hoa and Phu Yen, as well as in the Mekong Delta province of Chau Doc. Although sharing the same linguistic and historical tradition, they remain divided into two quite distinct religious communities, the Hindu Chams and the Cham Bani, or Muslims. The latter are easily distinguished by the men's preferred headgear - a crimson fez with a long golden tassel, or white Muslim prayer cap. ![]() David Henley / CPA
Cham drummer calling the faithful to prayer. The two groups live peacefully side-by-side, as they do with their Viet neighbours, but there is no marriage between them. This rigid taboo is deeply rooted in the past, as is underlined in an epic poem of the Cham, Araya Cham Ni, which relates the tragic outcome of a love affair between a Hindu boy and a Muslim girl. In a nominally atheist society, it is a reflection of the continuing power of religion that such spiritual differences continue to divide a people which has survived Viet conquest, French colonialism, and American intervention in Indochina.
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CHAM MUSLIMS This article is about Cham muslims.It's long so I'll present the opening paragraphs. The Cham Muslims of Indo-China
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AAYO GORKHALI
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DemiSoda ![]() Immortal Guard ![]() ![]() Joined: 01-Mar-2006 Location: Nepal Status: Offline Points: 0 |
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Some Pics A mosque in Siem Reap, Cambodia
Crescent moons against a stormy monsoon sky, Vientiane, Laos. Jahed elders reading Koran scripts in ¡°old Cham¡± the ancient Cham language. |
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AAYO GORKHALI
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The Brahmin goddess Danu has a temple in Bali. Were Danu , Mahagouri or Mahaji known in Champa? They are known in traditional religion in Australia.
chimera
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Omar al Hashim ![]() Immortal Guard ![]() ![]() Joined: 05-Jan-2006 Location: Snowy-Highlands Status: Offline Points: 5725 |
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Bali is majority Hindu so it isn't surprising. How do you known so much about aboriginial religion? Which part of Australia?
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In east Australia, Bundjalung legend says 3 men sailed a ship from Ngareenebeil. www [three brothers bundjalung] gives several sites with info., as in "Australian Dreaming" J.Isaacs. Cam. and "Papers of Marjorie Oakes-Bundjalung" AIATSIS Canberra. Personal interviews and other books on Koori cultures gave me more details. The Sanskrit vocabulary of Champa, Angkor and Java-Bali seems to also be there in east Australian languages.
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Could you give that website again. I don't see how there could be any Indian influence on the east coast of Australia, on the Northern coast there was almost certainly contact between Indonesians and Aboriginies so a transmission of hindu culture and religion is quite possible. Where do you live by the way? |
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Lennox Head Aboriginal Area Plan of Management
click on "Aboriginal Heritage"
Omar,
the www sites give little info. but more detail is in "Australian Dreaming" J Isaacs. Cam. The 3 men sailed a ship from Ngareenbeil. Malay negara means "national", and was the ceremonial state-system in Brahmin-ruled Bali._"Negara" C Geertz.Princeton. Bundjalung (Grafton-Brisbane area) ngara means "ceremony".
I'm from Armidale NSW and my wife was a tutor of Koori students doing archaeology of sacred sites. The sea-current from Solomon Islands brought abandoned out-rigger canoes to north Queensland, and Fraser Island legend says Ngulungi people arrived by canoes. Bundjalung language seems to have about 10% Sanskrit words.
chimera
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TranHungDao ![]() Shogun ![]() Joined: 31-May-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 245 |
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The Chams were a race of pirates and slave traders. They were a
thorn in the side of the Vietnamese, Khmers and even the Thais.
Vietnam overran Champa in 1471, massacring 10's of thousands and taking
as many as slaves. Many others fled to Malaya, Cambodia and
Hainan Island. Needless to say, the relationship between the
Vietnamese and the Chams was a 1000 year old blood feud.
They were tough adversaries. Militarily, they did better against the Vietnamese than the Mongols ever did. Edited by TranHungDao - 01-Jun-2007 at 04:30 |
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Sander ![]() Shogun ![]() Joined: 20-Mar-2007 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 198 |
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Welcome to a new member . Good to see that some SEANS have found this forum, although some nationalistic touches occur here and there in the postings.
There were often pirates and slavetraders but they were much more than that. And slavetrade and piracy were practiced by Vietnamese ( and the others mentioned) as well, but if that is the only thing that is mentioned , it can suggest that the Vietnamese were a bunch of wilds.
Chams had very well organized polities for more than 1000 years and were very developed in all aspects. As far as solid evidence goes they were even SEA ´s first literate state. Edited by Sander - 01-Jun-2007 at 14:55 |
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Thanks
Not anywhere near as much as the Chams. The Chams lived in the Central highlands of Vietnam. This area was by far less fertile than the Red River Delta of the northern and the Mekong Delta of the southern part of Vietnam. Han census data shows that the northern Vietnam had some of the most densest population in the world. Also, the Chams had been preying upon Vietnamese during the Chinese occupation, practically from the time they were began as an organized state. Now this should inform you that if such tiny, tiny state is willing to prey upon the massive Chinese empire, then they are very much a bunch of "wilds". If "geography is destiny", then the Chams were forced to be wilds by the very land they occupied: The Chams had to make a living slave trading and piracy. If you go back to Dongsonian times, or the first millenium BCE, and look at Vietnamese art, then you'll see nothing that pertains to war, despite the Red River Delta's spectacular population density. Vietnamese, prior, to being sandwich between two predators, namely the Chinese and the Chams, were basically peaceful, relatively speaking, and later learned to be violent out of necessity. Mind you, a land is generally peaceful until it hits a certain population density, at which point, the competition for resources naturally drives people to murder each other. Now, if said land is highly fertile & capable of sustaining rather large numbers of people, then the people will be peaceful--relatively speaking. Perhaps this is why the Vietnamese state of Van Lang, circa 700-600 BCE was so easily conquered by a handful of refugees from a conquered Yueh state to establish the short lived state of Au Lac in about 257 BCE. Au Lac also occupied the Red River Delta and is considered to be Vietnamese. It was conquered & annexed by Tried Da (in 207 BCE) who established Nam Viet in 211 BCE, which was headquartered in what is now Canton, China.
If slave taking and piracy can label one "wild", then the Europeans, and certainly the Dutch are far wilder than the Vietnamese by any measure. Dutch colonies were amongst the most brutal. It's hard to swing a dead cat without hitting someone "wild", no? ![]()
1. Vietnamese, or rather the people of the Red River Delta, had were the center of the Dong Son culture, which was the first to do bronze casting. 2. The Vietnamese also invent wet rice cultivation. The rice growing world grows rice by this method. 3. Vietnamese probably learned writing from our hated Chinese conquerers prior to the founding of the Chams. 4. Europeans who had come to Vietnam had always remarked in their now surviving journals, and in typical racist fashion, that Vietnamese were far more advanced/cultured than the people they met in surrounding countries including Chinese, Asian Indians, Khmers, Laos, Thai.... Vietnam probably had the highest literacy rate in the world according Stanley Karnow (Vietnam: A History), about 80% if memory serves me, just prior to French colonization, after which it dropped to 15%. At this time, Japan was less than 50% literate--again, if memory serves me. Europe and America was even less so--correct me if I'm wrong.
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Sander ![]() Shogun ![]() Joined: 20-Mar-2007 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 198 |
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Hm.. in some postings is a lot of nationalism and denigrating talk towards other etnicities.
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Jumping into a Champa topic and claiming them as wilds and "a thorn in the eyes of SE asians is .. how do we call it?
![]() I saw lot of wrong info here. I only correct 2 of those that are really related to Chams .
Every normal academic study tells that Chams were primary coastal people with maritime culture ,combined with agriculture. Taylors book will probably tell the same.
Without ancient Vietnamese writing such claims make little sense. For Champa there is solid proof that they could write since at least the 300's in their own language, as their inscriptions show . Thats why its regarded as first literate state in SEA.
For the rest, there is only Dai Viet/Vietnamese centred propaganda in this Champa topic and derogatory talk about Chams. This nationalism might be more appropiate in other threads or when Vietnamese are attacked, but in this topic it makes little sense.
Anyhow, this thread is meant for ancient Champa , not Vieto- centric propaganda.
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I don't think you understand sarcasm. Besides, I said that
the Chams were a race of "pirates and slave traders". It was you
who used the word "wilds". I'm merely using you're own
words. Note that I said that too of the Europeans the in
particular the Dutch, since you seem to hail from Holland.
Just to clarify: When I called the Chams a race of pirates and slave traders, I was refering to the Chams of old, because they really were like the Vikings of SE Asia. The Vikings also were maritime/coastal people, they also farmed, but they also raised Hell all over Europe. No?
So do I. The fact is, the Chams did attack the Vietnamese when the Vietnamese were annexed and so were actually Chinese by state/nationality. They did so from the very beginning of their existence as a state. It takes a lot of balls to attack a giant empire, i.e. violent way of life. Do some research on the Chams. There was a 1000+ year old blood feud between them and the Vietnamese. They started it. We finished it. What next? Vietnam invaded China about 10 times during the last 1000 years? Vietnam divided America and caused the North vs South Civil War?
Look at Vietnamese Dongsonian art which predates the Chinese onslaught into the northern Vietnam and the Cham state, there are NO images of war, just frogs, birds and turtles and other pastoral themes. Pre-Cham, Pre-Chinese Vietnamese were not violent people. But we certainly became so, sandwiched between the Chinese and the Chams.
It would not be Vieto-centric propaganda to say that in their hey-day, the Vikings, Mongols and Chams were wilds, because they did make a living preying on others. Would I say that about the Northern Europeans, Mongolians and Chams of today? NO. Of course, I definitely would say that of the Northern Europeans just a few decades ago when they ran brutal colonies all over the world. I would definitely consider George W. Bush a "wild". In the Congo for instance, a tiny little country like Belgium was responsible for over 10,000,0000 Congolese deaths. In Vietnam, two famines alone killed 4 million people--under the French. In India, many famines killed millions of Indians--each time. When the French and Brits left, famines never again occurred in these two countries. And this is just the tip of the iceberg. And don't get me started on the opium trade in Asia! ![]() And again, the Dutch has some of the most brutal colonial practices. ![]() Please don't jump to conclusions. Don't confuse a healthy sarcastic sense of humor with racism. And while you're at it please read up on the exploits of the Chams, the Vikings, and the Mongols. Southeast Asians, namely the Chams or Vietnamese for that matter, can be just as brutal as Northeast Asians or Northern Europeans. They don't need anyone's holier-than-thou patronizing. ![]() Edited by TranHungDao - 02-Jun-2007 at 03:15 |
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