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    Posted: 23-Feb-2006 at 10:09

I want to discuss kingdom of Champa, a very old Kingdom in ancient Vietnam.

The ancient kingdom of Champa was situated in the central coast of Viet Nam at one time stretched from the Ngang Pass (pressent Quang Binh province) to the upper basin of Dong nai river. The Cham people is believed to be of the same Javanese stock as many of the creators of the Dong Son culture further to the north. As they were intrepid seafarers, and as their land was well placed not far from the sea route from India to China, the Chams were exposed very early to Indian culture and its Brahman religion.

Overview of History of Kingdom of Champa
The history of the kingdom of Champa was marked with constant engagement in war and hostility with its neighbors, especially those from the North. Champa was first noted in Chinese historical writings in 192 AD. At the time, the Chams were concentrated in the area of the present Binh Thuan province. During the 3rd century, they expanded northward, seizing territory from the Han dynasty who ruled Viet Nam. They rapidly pushed northward and for a brief time occupied the the Red River Delta and several provinces in southern China. During the 4th and 5th centuries, the Chinese recaptured southern China and Viet Nam and expelled the Chams. The kingdom of Champa slowly contracted until by the 8th century, it corresponded approximately to the present Central and South Viet Nam. In the 10th century, only fifty years after gaining independence from China, Viet Nam invaded Champa. The Cham successfully repelled the Vietnamese and concentrated their effort in controlling their southern territory and the adjacent high land. During the 12th century, the Khmers to the west invaded the southern portion of Champa and occupied the Mekong delta. But in 1217, the Khmers and Chams allied against and defeated the Vietnamese, and the Khmers withdrew from the Mekong delta. Late in the 13th century, the Mongol army of Kublai Khan occupied Champa for five years, until it was defeated by the Vietnamese in 1287. From then on and little by little, the Vietnamese became master of all the land north of Hai Van pass by 1306. From 1313 on, the Vietnamese only allowed their puppets on the Cham throne. Che Bong Nga (1360-1390) alone resisted for a time and he even succeeded raiding the Red River delta and pillaged the Vietnamese capital of Thang Long (Ha Noi) in 1372. But his successors could not protect their own territory. In 1471, the Vietnamese invaded Champa, captured its capital of Vijaya and massacred thousands of its people. This event signified the cease of existence of Champa as a kingdom. In the mid-17th century, the Vietnamese again marched southward and captured the remaining Cham land in the present provinces of Phu Yen and Khanh Hoa. In 1832, the absorption of Champa land was completed and Viet Nam extended its total control over the Mekong delta all the way to Ca Mau, the the southern most tip of the land.

Minh Bui
References:
The Indianized States of Southeast Asia, G. Coedes, 1968 Status of the Latest Research on the Absorption Of Champa by Viet Nam, Po Darma, Proceedings of the Seminar on Champa, 1988
 

Source of map:
Proceeding of the Seminar on Champa, University of Copenhagen, May 23, 1987
Champa and the Southward Expansion of Viet Nam
2-3
century

AD
Kingdom of Lin-Yi (Lam Ap) was recorded in Chinese annals. Lin-Yi raided Viet Nam and Southern China in 248
543 Champa attacked Viet Nam but was defeated by Pham Tu, a general of king Ly Bon
982 Viet Nam force led by Ly Thuong Kiet attacked and pushed Champa's border to south of Hoanh Son (Thanh Hoa)
1069 King Ly Thanh Tong led Viet Nam to invade Champa, sacked Vijaya and took king Rudravarman III (Che Cu) prisoner in exchange for 3 provinces Dia Ly, Ma Linh and Bo Chanh (present Quang Binh and Quang Tri)
1307 Vietnamese princess Huyen Tran married king Jaya Sinhavarman III (Che Man). in exchange for two provinces O and Ly
1370 King Che Bong Nga raided and pilfered Thang Long (Ha Noi). Che Bong Nga was killed in battle in 1382
1402 Viet Nam invaded Champa. Ho Quy Ly forced king Campadhiraya to concede Indrapura (Quang Nam) and the territory of Amaravati (North Champa) to Viet Nam
1471 Vietnamese army led by King Le Thanh Tong captured and destroyed Vijaya. Viet Nam annexed the new land as provinces of Thang Hoa, Tu Nghia and Hoai Nhon
1578 Lord Nguyen Hoang annexed the Cham region of Phu Yen
1653 Lord Nguyen Phuc Tan captured Cham's region of Kauthara and pushed Viet Nam's southern border to Cam Ranh
1692 Lord Nguyen Phuc Chu annexed the remaining Champa territory as the new prefecture of Tran Thuan Thanh

http://www.viettouch.com/champa/

I am specially interested in the architecture of Champa Kingdom.

I am also interested in ancient Champa language and literature.

Linguists have classified Cham as a member of the Malayo-Polynisian family spoken by several ethnic groups lived along the coast of South China sea and the Malay Archipelago. As they come from one linguistic family, the Cham, Malay and Javanese languages share numerous lexical similarities. The written Cham is based on the Sanskrit alphabets. As early as the 3rd century AD, inscription of Sanskrit texts were found on the steles as they were used to record royal chronicle and important historical events. This epigraphic practice ceased in 1471 with the downfall of Champa. About the mid-16th century, a modern form of Cham emerged and gradually replaced the classical (old Cham) language which heavily used Sanskrit and Arabic vocabularies . Modern Cham became more popular in the 17th through the 19th century as a number of manuscripts and texts of history, religion, folklore and legends, poetry and epics were written in the new language.

A religious emblem used in ancient Cham cremation ceremony.

 

 

http://www.viettouch.com/

Ruou ngon phai co ban hien

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2006 at 12:44

Interesting.

Based on this historical background, do you think Indochina, in general, tends today more toward Buddhist and Hindu civilization models, or more toward a Chinese Confucian model?

 



Edited by pikeshot1600
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vietcoung Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2006 at 12:56
Originally posted by pikeshot1600 pikeshot1600 wrote:

Interesting.

Based on this historical background, do you think Indochina, in general, tends today more toward Buddhist and Hindu civilization models, or more toward a Chinese Confucian model?

 

The name is Indochina Pikeshot so influences from both India and China are there.China itself used to be a Buddhist country.With decades of communist rule religion has taken a backseat in both China and Indochina.Though India did not have communist rule and same is not the case with that country.Confucianism is not really a religion so I think it would be wrong to compare it to Hinduism/Budhhism.

With China's economic boom I think their economic and cultural influence is more visible than that of India in Indochina right now.

In short,whole thing is a mess.I've been trying to untangle some knots which I've tied myself into.Please ask more questions.

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Cham Language

Cham, a Malayo-Polynesian / Malayic language, is official ethnic community in Viet Nam. The Cham maintained a powerful kingdom that dominated the central Vietnamese coast from the 12th to the 17th century.  During this period their businessmen traded throughout Southeast Asia. 

Boats and buffalo carts were their main means of transport and travel.  There primary crop is wet rice.  They are also experienced in gardening and raising livestock and poultry.  Traditionally their written language used the Sanskrit system.

The traditional Cham families are matriarchal.  The bride’s family organizes the wedding and the couple lives with the woman’s family.  Cham’s practice Hindu, Islam and Buddhism, depending upon the region.  Death ritual include both burial and cremation.  Handicrafts are well developed, especially silk textiles and pottery. Austro-Asiatic influences.

http://www.ibike.org/ibike/vietnam/central/5-Tam%20Ky.htm

Sample
Translation In the beginning God created heaven and earth. The earth was formless and empty, and darkness covered the deep water. The spirit of God was hovering over the water. Then God said, "Let there be light!" So there was light. God saw the light was good. So God separated the light from the darkness. God named the light "day", and the darkness he named "night". There was evening, then morning, the first day.
Statistics Viet Nam (35,000) - United States (10) - Total (55,000)
Classification Austronesian | Malayo-Polynesian

http://www.language-museum.com/c/cham-eastern-brahmic.php

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote poirot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Feb-2006 at 20:58
Originally posted by pikeshot1600 pikeshot1600 wrote:

Interesting.

Based on this historical background, do you think Indochina, in general, tends today more toward Buddhist and Hindu civilization models, or more toward a Chinese Confucian model?

 

Annam, what is now Northern Vietnam - Chinaes influence greater

Champa, what is now Souther Vietnam - Indian influence greater

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Originally posted by poirot poirot wrote:

Annam, what is now Northern Vietnam - Chinaes influence greater

Champa, what is now Souther Vietnam - Indian influence greater

That's true. Interestingly, though, by 1978, among the 1.5 million overseas Chinese in Vietnam, about 300,000 lived in North Vietnam, the majority of whom were coal miners, factory workers, fishermen; the rest were living in the urban centres of South Vietnam where they literally controlled the most important aspects of the South Vietnamese economy.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2006 at 13:57

On the topic of "Vietnamese surnames", I found the following quote from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_name

"Virtually all family names are Chinese in origin, although a few (particularly in the south) have been traced to Cham origins, but presumably have been Vietnamized."

I was wondering if there's any Vietnamese forumer here who knows anything about that.

I've found more information on the Chams:

http://www.cpamedia.com/articles/20010703_01/

The Champs: Survivors of a Lost Civilisation

The Cham are perhaps the oldest and least-known people of Indochina. Inheritors of a proud tradition that stretches back almost two thousand years, Champa was the first Indianised Kingdom in Indochina. Its founding predates both the beginnings of Cambodia in about 550 AD, and the first major expansion of the Vietnamese south from the Red River delta of Tonkin in the mid-10th century.

Our earliest records of Champa are Chinese, dating from 192 AD. In these dynastic annals the people of Lin-yi, or Champa, are described as having 'dark skin, deep-set eyes, turned up noses and frizzy hair', trends which are still often recognisable in the modern descendants of the Chams today. The annalist records that the Chams dress 'in a single piece of cotton or silk wrapped about the body. They wear their hair in a bun on the top of their head, and they pierce their ears in order to wear small metal rings. They are very clean. They wash themselves several times each day, wear perfume, and rub their bodies with a lotion made of camphor and musk'.

At the peak of their power, about 12 centuries ago, the Chams controlled rich and fertile lands stretching from north of Hue, in central Annam, to the Mekong Delta in Cochinchina. Yet today Vietnamese cities like Da Nang and Nha Trang dominate these regions. Only mysterious brick temples, known familiarly as "Cham Towers", dot the skyline around Thap Cham and Po Nagar, Cha Ban and My Son, whilst in Cambodia the name of an eastern province and its capital, Kampong Cham, remain as mute testimony to the passing of a kingdom. The question arises, what happened? And where are the Chams - those that survive - today?

The origin of the Chams, like that of most peoples, is lost in the mists of time. Unlike most other inhabitants of Southeast Asia north of the Malay peninsula, they are an Austronesian people, more closely linked with the islands of the Malay-Indonesian world and the Philippines than with the mainland. We can surmise - but no more - that at some distant time they migrated by sea from the Indonesian Archipelago and settled in what is now central Vietnam.

The bases of what we know of early Cham society would seem to bear out this hypothesis. Unlike their Viet and Khmer neighbours, whose societies are based on intensive rice cultivation, the Cham seem to have had little time for agriculture. Champa's prosperity was based on maritime trade - and more than probably on a degree of piracy. Champa's principal exports seem to have been slaves (mainly prisoners of war) and sandalwood. This latter commodity, which was of great importance to the intensely religious societies of early Southeast Asia, brought considerable riches.

Silver Tower, Quy Nhon.
Reinhard Hohler / CPA
Silver Tower, Quy Nhon.

Much of this wealth seems to have been expended on building "Cham Towers" - exquisitely decorated, brick-and-sandstone keeps and temples dedicated to the first major religion of Champa, a form of Shaivite Hinduism which was introduced from India by sea during the early centuries AD. Even today, despite the ravages of time, these symbols of Cham civilisation remain impressive, not least for their masterful masonry. Layer upon layer of hard-baked brick are fitted together apparently without mortar, and yet so precisely that it is all but impossible to insert a knife blade between any two sections.

The most important and extensive Cham tower complex was raised at My Son, Champa's pre-eminent religious centre, about 50 kilometres west of Da Nang. Simhapura, the political capital - known today as Tra Kieu - was located nearby, about half-way between Da Nang and My Son.

Tran Ky Phuong, Director of Vietnam's excellently-appointed Cham Museum in Da Nang, explains that although there are many Cham temples and towers scattered throughout coastal southern Vietnam, the main reason there is no single major site comparable to Angkor or Pagan is because 'the Cham were traders. As such they did not have a strong attachment to the land'. Yet it was this very proximity to the sea which brought Hinduism to the Chams - their first world religious tradition - just as it would bring their second, Islam.

Arab merchants reached Guangdong in southern China as early as the 7th century AD, and it seems clear that they stopped along the central Vietnamese coast en route for provisions and trade. The first concrete evidence of such intercourse - and of an Islamic presence in Vietnam - is a 10th century stone pillar inscribed in Arabic which was found near the coastal town of Phan Rang.

As elsewhere in Southeast Asia, from Aceh to Sulu, Islam seems to have spread peacefully through commerce and intermarriage. The egalitarian message of the new religion may have appealed to the poorer classes, Hinduism being most closely associated with the Cham aristocracy. Be this as it may, the Cham Kingdom was destined to lose its independence before the new religion could effect a full conversion.

With the emergence of the powerful Cambodian Kingdom of Angkor in about 800 AD, and the renewal of Vietnam's territorial expansion to the south just over a century later, Champa found itself hopelessly outnumbered and caught in a politico-cultural vice between Khmer Buddhism and Vietnamese Confucianism. This vice gradually tightened with the Vietnamese, in particular, pushing the Chams south towards the Mekong Delta.

In 1471 the outnumbered Chams suffered a terrible defeat at the hands of the Vietnamese. 60,000 of their soldiers were reportedly killed, and another 60,000 carried into captivity. Champa was reduced to a small sliver of territory in the region of Nha Trang, which survived until 1720, when the king and many of his subjects fled to neighbouring Cambodia rather than submit to Vietnamese conquest. The Cham Diaspora dates from this period, and the diverse Cham communities later established in Cambodia, Thailand and Laos can trace their common origin to this catastrophe.

Today there are about 77,000 Chams in Vietnam, living mainly in the coastal provinces of Thuan Hai, Khanh Hoa and Phu Yen, as well as in the Mekong Delta province of Chau Doc. Although sharing the same linguistic and historical tradition, they remain divided into two quite distinct religious communities, the Hindu Chams and the Cham Bani, or Muslims. The latter are easily distinguished by the men's preferred headgear - a crimson fez with a long golden tassel, or white Muslim prayer cap.

Cham drummer calling the faithful to prayer.
David Henley / CPA
Cham drummer calling the faithful to prayer.

The two groups live peacefully side-by-side, as they do with their Viet neighbours, but there is no marriage between them. This rigid taboo is deeply rooted in the past, as is underlined in an epic poem of the Cham, Araya Cham Ni, which relates the tragic outcome of a love affair between a Hindu boy and a Muslim girl. In a nominally atheist society, it is a reflection of the continuing power of religion that such spiritual differences continue to divide a people which has survived Viet conquest, French colonialism, and American intervention in Indochina.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DemiSoda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2006 at 13:34

CHAM MUSLIMS

This article is about Cham muslims.It's long so I'll present the opening paragraphs.

The Cham Muslims of Indo-China



J. Willoughby

 

The Cham Muslims of Vietnam and Cambodia represent one of the most forgotten Muslim peoples of the Muslim ummah.
We hear of the Muslim minorities in the Soviet Union, China and India due to their large numbers and majority-minority tensions, and sometimes of the smaller Muslim communities in Burma, Thailand and the Philippines. But, it seems that we never hear of the Muslims of Indo-China, as their numbers have never been large and because they have never really had any political or economic influence or power in their native lands.

Even though we now have some of them living and working among us as refugees, we still know next to nothing about their history, culture or religious practices within their homelands. We are even more ignorant of the fate of those who for one reason or another remained behind after the communist victories throughout Indo-China in 1975.
http://www.geocities.com/mutmainaa/history/cham_muslims.html

 



Edited by DemiSoda
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DemiSoda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2006 at 13:47

Some Pics

A mosque in Siem Reap, Cambodia

 

Crescent moons against a stormy monsoon sky, Vientiane, Laos.

Crescent moons against a stormy monsoon sky, Vientiane, Laos.

Jahed elders reading Koran scripts in ¡°old Cham¡± the ancient Cham language.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chimera Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2007 at 16:14
The Brahmin goddess Danu has a temple in Bali. Were Danu , Mahagouri or Mahaji known in Champa? They are known in traditional religion in Australia.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Feb-2007 at 19:15
Bali is majority Hindu so it isn't surprising. How do you known so much about aboriginial religion? Which part of Australia?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chimera Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Feb-2007 at 23:26
In east Australia, Bundjalung legend says 3 men sailed a ship from Ngareenebeil. www [three brothers bundjalung] gives several sites with info., as in "Australian Dreaming" J.Isaacs. Cam. and "Papers of Marjorie Oakes-Bundjalung" AIATSIS Canberra.  Personal interviews and other books on Koori cultures gave me more details. The Sanskrit vocabulary of Champa, Angkor and Java-Bali seems to also be there in east Australian languages.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Feb-2007 at 18:58
Quote www [three brothers bundjalung]

Could you give that website again.

I don't see how there could be any Indian influence on the east coast of Australia, on the Northern coast there was almost certainly contact between Indonesians and Aboriginies so a transmission of hindu culture and religion is quite possible.

Where do you live by the way?
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Lennox Head Aboriginal Area Plan of Management

File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
According to Bundjalung tradition, the ancestral Three. Brothers first settled the area and landed on the beach at Lennox Head (approximately ...
www3.environment.nsw.gov.au/PDFs/lennox_head_pom.pdf
click on "Aboriginal Heritage"
Omar,
the www sites give little info. but more detail is in "Australian Dreaming" J Isaacs. Cam. The 3 men sailed a ship from Ngareenbeil. Malay negara means "national", and was the ceremonial state-system in Brahmin-ruled Bali._"Negara" C Geertz.Princeton.  Bundjalung (Grafton-Brisbane area) ngara means "ceremony".
I'm from Armidale NSW and my wife was a tutor of Koori students doing archaeology of sacred sites. The sea-current from Solomon Islands brought abandoned out-rigger canoes to north Queensland, and Fraser Island legend says Ngulungi people arrived by canoes. Bundjalung language seems to have about 10% Sanskrit words.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TranHungDao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2007 at 04:22
The Chams were a race of pirates and slave traders.  They were a thorn in the side of the Vietnamese, Khmers and even the Thais.  Vietnam overran Champa in 1471, massacring 10's of thousands and taking as many as slaves.  Many others fled to Malaya, Cambodia and Hainan Island.  Needless to say, the relationship between the Vietnamese and the Chams was a 1000 year old blood feud.

They were tough adversaries.  Militarily, they did better against the Vietnamese than the Mongols ever did.





Edited by TranHungDao - 01-Jun-2007 at 04:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2007 at 14:53
Welcome to a new member . Good to see that some SEANS have found this forum,  although some nationalistic touches occur here and there in the postings.
 
Quote The Chams were a race of pirates and slave traders. They were a thorn in the side of the Vietnamese, Khmers and even the Thais.
 
There were often pirates and slavetraders  but they were much more than that. And slavetrade and piracy were practiced by Vietnamese ( and the others mentioned) as well,  but if that is the only thing that is mentioned , it can suggest that the Vietnamese were a bunch of wilds.
 
Chams had very well organized polities for more than 1000 years and were very developed in all aspects.  As far as solid evidence goes they were even SEA ´s first literate state.
 
 


Edited by Sander - 01-Jun-2007 at 14:55
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Originally posted by Sander Sander wrote:

Welcome to a new member . Good to see that some SEANS have found this forum, 

Thanks

Originally posted by Sander Sander wrote:


There were often pirates and slavetraders  but they were much more than that. And slavetrade and piracy were practiced by Vietnamese ( and the others mentioned) as well, 
 
Not anywhere near as much as the Chams.  The Chams lived in the Central highlands of Vietnam.  This area was by far less fertile than the Red River Delta of the northern and the Mekong Delta of the southern part of Vietnam.  Han census data shows that the northern Vietnam had some of the most densest population in the world.

Also, the Chams had been preying upon Vietnamese during the Chinese occupation, practically from the time they were began as an organized state.  Now this should inform you that if such tiny, tiny state is willing to prey upon the massive Chinese empire, then they are very much a bunch of "wilds".

If "geography is destiny", then the Chams were forced to be wilds by the very land they occupied:  The Chams had to make a living slave trading and piracy.  If you go back to Dongsonian times, or the first millenium BCE, and look at Vietnamese art, then you'll see nothing that pertains to war, despite the Red River Delta's spectacular population density.  Vietnamese, prior, to being sandwich between two predators, namely the Chinese and the Chams, were basically peaceful, relatively speaking, and later learned to be violent out of necessity.

Mind you, a land is generally peaceful until it hits a certain population density, at which point, the competition for resources naturally drives people to murder each other.  Now, if said land is highly fertile & capable of sustaining rather large numbers of people, then the people will be peaceful--relatively speaking.

Perhaps this is why the Vietnamese state of Van Lang, circa 700-600 BCE was so easily conquered by a handful of refugees from a conquered Yueh state to establish the short lived state of Au Lac in about 257 BCE.  Au Lac also occupied the Red River Delta and is considered to be Vietnamese.  It was conquered & annexed by Tried Da (in 207 BCE) who established Nam Viet in 211 BCE, which was headquartered in what is now Canton, China.

Originally posted by Sander Sander wrote:


but if that is the only thing that is mentioned , it can suggest that the Vietnamese were a bunch of wilds.

If slave taking and piracy can label one "wild", then the Europeans, and certainly the Dutch are far wilder than the Vietnamese by any measure.  Dutch colonies were amongst the most brutal.  It's hard to swing a dead cat without hitting someone "wild", no? Wink

Originally posted by Sander Sander wrote:


Chams had very well organized polities for more than 1000 years and were very developed in all aspects.  As far as solid evidence goes they were even SEA ´s first literate state.

1.  Vietnamese, or rather the people of the Red River Delta, had were the center of the Dong Son culture, which was the first to do bronze casting.
2.  The Vietnamese also invent wet rice cultivation.  The rice growing world grows rice by this method.
3.  Vietnamese probably learned writing from our hated Chinese conquerers prior to the founding of the Chams.
4.  Europeans who had come to Vietnam had always remarked in their now surviving journals, and in typical racist fashion, that Vietnamese were far more advanced/cultured than the people they met in surrounding countries including Chinese, Asian Indians, Khmers, Laos, Thai....  Vietnam probably had the highest literacy rate in the world according Stanley Karnow (Vietnam: A History), about 80% if memory serves me, just prior to French colonization, after which it dropped to 15%.  At this time, Japan was less than 50% literate--again, if memory serves me.  Europe and America was even less so--correct me if I'm wrong.

Originally posted by Sander Sander wrote:


although some nationalistic touches occur here and there in the postings.
Touché Cry


Edited by TranHungDao - 01-Jun-2007 at 17:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2007 at 23:58
Hm.. in some postings is a lot of nationalism and denigrating talk towards other etnicities.Confused Maybe Knights can take a look. it would be great if our new member does not call Chams wilds or tries to suggests they were, as done several times now.
 
 
Originally posted by TranHungDao TranHungDao wrote:

Also, the Chams had been preying upon Vietnamese during the Chinese occupation, practically from the time they were began as an organized state. Now this should inform you that if such tiny, tiny state is willing to prey upon the massive Chinese empire, then they are very much a bunch of "wilds".
 
If "geography is destiny", then the Chams were forced to be wilds by the very land they occupied: The Chams had to make a living slave trading and piracy. If you go back to Dongsonian times, or the first millenium BCE, and look at Vietnamese art, then you'll see nothing that pertains to war, despite the Red River Delta's spectacular population density. Vietnamese, prior, to being sandwich between two predators, namely the Chinese and the Chams, were basically peaceful, relatively speaking, and later learned to be violent out of necessity.
 
Jumping into a Champa topic and claiming them as wilds and "a thorn in the eyes of SE asians is .. how do we call it?Confused
 
 
I saw  lot of wrong info here. I only correct 2 of those that are really related to Chams .
Quote Not anywhere near as much as the Chams.  The Chams lived in the Central highlands of Vietnam.  This area was by far less fertile than the Red River Delta of the northern and the Mekong Delta of the southern part of Vietnam.  Han census data shows that the northern Vietnam had some of the most densest population in the world.
 
Every normal academic study tells that Chams were primary coastal people with maritime culture ,combined with agriculture. Taylors book will probably tell the same.
 
 
Quote Vietnamese probably learned writing from our hated Chinese conquerers prior to the founding of the Chams
.
 
Without ancient Vietnamese writing such claims make little sense. For Champa there is solid proof that they could write since at least the 300's in their own language,  as their inscriptions show . Thats why its regarded as first literate state in SEA.
 
For the rest, there is only Dai Viet/Vietnamese centred propaganda in this Champa topic and derogatory talk about Chams. This  nationalism might be more appropiate in other threads or when Vietnamese are attacked, but in this topic it makes little sense.
 
Anyhow, this thread is meant for ancient Champa , not  Vieto- centric  propaganda. Wink
 
 


Edited by Sander - 02-Jun-2007 at 01:46
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TranHungDao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2007 at 03:08
Originally posted by Sander Sander wrote:

Hm.. in some postings is a lot of nationalism and denigrating talk towards other etnicities.Confused Maybe Knights can take a look. it would be great if our new member does not call Chams wilds or tries to suggests they were, as done several times now.
 
Originally posted by Sander Sander wrote:

Jumping into a Champa topic and claiming them as wilds and "a thorn in the eyes of SE asians is .. how do we call it?Confused
I don't think you understand sarcasm.  Besides, I said that the Chams were a race of "pirates and slave traders".  It was you who used the word "wilds".  I'm merely using you're own words.  Note that I said that too of the Europeans the in particular the Dutch, since you seem to hail from Holland.

Just to clarify:  When I called the Chams a race of pirates and slave traders, I was refering to the Chams of old, because they really were like the Vikings of SE Asia.  The Vikings also were maritime/coastal people, they also farmed, but they also raised Hell all over Europe.  No?
 
Originally posted by Sander Sander wrote:


I saw  lot of wrong info here. I only correct 2 of those that are really related to Chams .

So do I.  The fact is, the Chams did attack the Vietnamese when the Vietnamese were annexed and so were actually Chinese by state/nationality.  They did so from the very beginning of their existence as a state.  It takes a lot of balls to attack a giant empire, i.e. violent way of life.

Do some research on the Chams.  There was a 1000+ year old blood feud between them and the Vietnamese.  They started it.  We finished it.

What next?  Vietnam invaded China about 10 times during the last 1000 years?  Vietnam divided America and caused the North vs South Civil War?

Originally posted by Sander Sander wrote:


Every normal academic study tells that Chams were primary coastal people with maritime culture ,combined with agriculture. Taylors book will probably tell the same.

Look at Vietnamese Dongsonian art which predates the Chinese onslaught into the northern Vietnam and the Cham state, there are NO images of war, just frogs, birds and turtles and other pastoral themes.  Pre-Cham, Pre-Chinese Vietnamese were not violent people.  But we certainly became so, sandwiched between the Chinese and the Chams.

Originally posted by Sander Sander wrote:

 
For the rest, there is only Dai Viet/Vietnamese centred propaganda in this Champa topic and derogatory talk about Chams. This  nationalism might be more appropiate in other threads or when Vietnamese are attacked, but in this topic it makes little sense.
 
Anyhow, this thread is meant for ancient Champa , not  Vieto- centric  propaganda. Wink


It would not be Vieto-centric propaganda to say that in their hey-day, the Vikings, Mongols and Chams were wilds, because they did make a living preying on others.


Would I say that about the Northern Europeans, Mongolians and Chams of today?  NO. 

Of course, I definitely would say that of the Northern Europeans just a few decades ago when they ran brutal colonies all over the world.  I would definitely consider George W. Bush a "wild".  In the Congo for instance, a tiny little country like Belgium was responsible for over 10,000,0000 Congolese deaths.  In Vietnam, two famines alone killed 4 million people--under the French.  In India, many famines killed millions of Indians--each time.  When the French and Brits left, famines never again occurred in these two countries.  And this is just the tip of the iceberg.  And don't get me started on the opium trade in Asia! Disapprove

And again, the Dutch has some of the most brutal colonial practices. Confused

Please don't jump to conclusions.  Don't confuse a healthy sarcastic sense of humor with racism.  And while you're at it please read up on the exploits of the Chams, the Vikings, and the Mongols.  Southeast Asians, namely the Chams or Vietnamese for that matter, can be just as brutal as Northeast Asians or Northern Europeans.  They don't need anyone's holier-than-thou patronizing.  Ermm


Edited by TranHungDao - 02-Jun-2007 at 03:15
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