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Koshur View Drop Down
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    Posted: 24-Jun-2007 at 18:40
Hi there, I've been reading these forums for a while and find them very informative, there's a lot of very good information here posted by people who seem to be quite well versed.

I recently paid to get a DNA ancestry test done to find out about my deep ancestry, and now have my results. My Y-DNA test puts me in haplogroup J2a1b which is a middle eastern haplogroup prevalent amongst the Jews, northern Arabs, turks, kurds, Italians and Greeks. My results also show that I 'apparently'  belong to the "Cohen" lineage, whicih is a famous Jewish family line. This I am told is because out 43 certified markers I posses the following:

DYS19 - 14
DYS388 - 16
DYS390 - 23
DYS391 - 10
DYS392 - 11
DYS393 - 12

Now to get to the main point, I am firstly a moslem and am not from the lavent, anatolia or mesopotamia regions. I am infact originally from Srinagar, Kashmir. Both my parents are ethnic kashmiris from the valley, belonging to Srinagar. I am told that we have records of our ancestry in the Valley of Kashmir for over 600 year, so as far as being kashmiri goes, I don't think you can get more kashmiri. We have no tales or traditions of any descendancy from Arabs, Jews or any other middle eastern people.

So needless to say I am extremely puzzled at these results as I had always thought that if anything kashmiris had a central asian / Aryan origin and not middle eastern/jewish.

If anyone has any information about haplogroups or genetics of kashmiris, I would extremly appreciate it.

Thanks Smile


Edited by Koshur - 24-Jun-2007 at 19:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omkara Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2007 at 21:31
Originally posted by Koshur Koshur wrote:

I am infact originally from Srinagar, Kashmir. Both my parents are ethnic kashmiris from the valley, belonging to Srinagar. I am told that we have records of our ancestry in the Valley of Kashmir for over 600 year, so as far as being kashmiri goes, I don't think you can get more kashmiri. We have no tales or traditions of any descendancy from Arabs, Jews or any other middle eastern people.
 
Welcome to AE, where did you get the tests done? So you have mixed genetic strains or completely middle eastern/turk?
 
600 years sounds about right, the initial mohommadan incursions into Kashmir were during the 1100s and they were able to start ruling during 1390s.  Has your family been moslem for 600 years? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Koshur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2007 at 21:59
I got the Y-DNA test done from dna ancestry project, I'm not sure if my results are mixed or not, I don't really know how to interpret the information. Although it specifically says that I am J2a1b and that I have the 'trademark cohen' marker values.

As far as I'm aware, my family were hindu brahmins from the butt clan, all my ancestral fathers were scholars which fits with the brahmin part, I think. We also have some family who are from the Dar clan who I've been told are  Kshatriya. These clans are thought to be of aryan/central asian descent.
Although most have been moslem for a long time, I have been told that some relatives who had remained hindu at first converted during 1600-1700s due to problems in the valley.


Thus I am even more confused.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 01:54

With all that mixture perhaps should call yourself Kosher instead of Koshur! You are being serious? How on earth can a blood test tell you all that? It doesn’t sound right to me. I will stick my neck out and give some relevant information, but am wondering why you don’t already know about the connections. 

Let’s keep on going and add in another religion. Mohammed, the prophet, came over 500 years after Jesus, He said Christ did not die on the cross, another person, Barrabbus, had died in his place. Yuz Asaf (Jesus) and his mother Mary went to India

This traveling Jesus, whether the real person or a disciple, went to the Kashmir valley. One "lost" gospel claims this was the brother of Jesus called James. This prophet died among a community that once made the claim of being a lost tribe of Israel. Another “lost Gospel” here is the Gospel of Thomas. This other brother is ignored by Christians. He definitely did live, went to India and is buried in Goa. His tomb has been on display for the last two thousand years. However his writings show that instead of converting the natives they mostly converted him to vegetarianism, ahinsma and all that sort of thing. He always was the doubting one! 

Meanwhile up in the north, in the capitol of Kashmir, Srinagar, a house has become a temple, revered by the locals as the tomb of this reputed Jesus. In 1741 an Arab historian told of this miracle, "There was a window in the western wall of the tomb out of which the smell of musk used to emanate. A woman and her child came to pay their respects. The child passed urine into the hole, and the woman became insane."

Outside the capitol is a town called Murree (a corruption of Mary) lies the stone grave of Mary. His mother had traveled with him. In 1898 a British officer, Captain Richardson, smashed the tomb for it rested against the wall of a British defense tower. The local women had a tradition of putting flowers around it. He was killed in a riding accident the next week; the locals said inshalla, he was punished by God. 

Traditional Hindu literature like the "Mahabharata" tell of Kashmir and describe it as "the gardens of heaven". The notes of the Greek, Hekataios, who lived between 549 and 486 B.C, refer to this country as the home of an ancient race. The people wore shawls with long tassels, woven from goat hair and wool, first mentioned in 300 B.C. then in 1100 A.D.

The language spoken is distinct from other part of India. Some claim the speech is closer to Hebrew than any other language. Kash-ir (of Kush) is the Kashmiri name for Kashmir and they call their language Kashir (Hebrew for "right"). It has been claimed not a single inscription could be read on the ancient monuments of Kashmir for the ancient language had died out long ago and could not be deciphered. The ancient Kashmiri language and writing is not related to the local Sanskrit but is Semitic in origin. How true all this is I don’t know, perhaps others can provide more information.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Koshur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 07:29
My user name "koshur" means kashmiri in kashmiri lol, you said it as 'kashir' which is also used, but we say it as 'koshur', it had nothing to do with the jewish 'kosher'.

It wasn't a blood test, it was a DNA swab test - there are a lot of companies offering DNA ancestry tests and they are meant to be quite accurate, although I'm not too sure at the moment.

Muree isn't in the valley of kashmir, it is a hill station in the Punjab/NWFP region of Pakistan.

As far as I'm aware koshur is classified under 'Dardic' languages, yes it is different to the rest of the Indian languages but Im sure it is not semitic in origin.

I have never heard that Jesus came to kashmir/India, maybe I'm being ignorant but it sounds rediculous.

Thanks for the information, any more about any genetic studies that might have been carried out in kashmir would be nice.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maqsad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 17:40
How much do these tests cost now? Last time I checked the really good ones were about $1000 which is too much to be told something you suspected all along. I was waiting until the price dropped significantly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Koshur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 18:41
I got both the Y-DNA and the mtDNA tests, the total cost was $450. I have recieved all of my Y-DNA STR marker results, but am still waiting for the mtDNA results. I dont think any of them cost $1000 thats way too steep.

familytreedna.com are very good, they have a huge genetic database for south asia, too bad for me that they didnt have any kashmiri samples though :(
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maqsad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 19:04
$450 is a lot to pay for 6 markers. DNA should have billions of markers, potentially yet these places try to sell you on the idea of just a handful of markers which can barely tell which part of the planet a person is from. I think I will wait a few more years. Also, I heard National Geographic was only charging something like $99 for Y or X markers so they seem cheaper. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 21:00

Koshur, this whole world is odd place and many strange things happen in it. The tomb of Jesus, in Kashmir may sound ridiculous, but one must keep an open mind on these things. I have known about it for years. It has featured on 60 Minutes and shows like that. Google has many entries on the subject.  I’ll give the one at the top www.tombofjesus.com/ . Sorry about not getting places like Muree exact, I quoted from other sources, at least the place exists! Would love to visit Kashmir, what a fascinating place!  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote K. V. Ramakrishna Rao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2007 at 11:10
Today I read from newspapers that Hurriat apologize to Brahmins for the heinous crimes committed on them and invite them to come back. Does such approach has anything to do with the above affinity? Can this data would show anby connection betwen the Muslims and Brahmins according to your understranding?
History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pumaaa123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2007 at 00:12

Though it shares good characteristics, Kashmiri is a treated as a identical group like of the Nepali one in the sub-continent. But linking it with Jew, Arab and Greek is one another myth.

 

Together, a very latest DNA tests conducted over the sub-continent says that theres lot of arab/persian blood (up to 35%) in the sinds and punjabis of today pakistan because of frequent conquers and incorporation of islam in the region. The same can apply for the muslim kashmiris which has revealed here.

PUMA
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2007 at 02:50

After looking through the evidence for and against Koshur’s blood test I can honestly say he got taken for a ride. To test people for a “religious” blood type is a repugnant idea in the first place and that a company should charge so much is outrageous.

 

Quotes from Wikipedia:

“The Cohen hypothesis was first tested by Prof. Karl Skorecki and collaborators from Haifa, Israel, in 1997. In their study, "Y chromosomes of Jewish priests," published in the journal Nature, they found that the Kohanim appeared to share a different probability distribution compared to the rest of the Jewish population for the two Y-chromosome markers they tested (YAP and DYS 19); and that furthermore the probabilities appeared to be shared by both Sephardi and Ashkenazi Cohens, pointing to a common Cohen population origin before the Jewish diaspora at the time of the Roman empire. ..

 

The finding led to excitement in religious circles, with some seeing it as providing some "proof" of the historical veracity of the Bible or other religious convictions, but there was also criticism that the paper's evidence was being overstated. One source of early confusion was a widespread popular notion that only Cohens or only Jews could have the Cohen Modal Haplotype.

 

It is now clear that this is not the case. The Cohen Modal Haplotype, whilst notably frequent amongst Cohens, is also far from unusual in the general populations of haplogroups J1 and J2 with no particular link to the Cohen ancestry. These haplogroups occur widely throughout the Middle East and beyond. So whilst many Cohens have haplotypes close to the CMH, a far larger number of such haplotypes worldwide belong to people with no likely Cohen connection at all. Critics of the theory point out that the Cohen Modal Haplotype has also been found in significant numbers in groups of non-Jews, notably Italians.

 

Although membership in the Jewish community is traditionally passed maternally, membership in the group that originally comprised the Jewish priesthood ("Kohens" or Kohanim), is patrilineal, and modern Kohens claim descent from Aaron, brother of Moses.”

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Koshur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2007 at 09:52
Originally posted by maqsad maqsad wrote:

$450 is a lot to pay for 6 markers. DNA should have billions of markers, potentially yet these places try to sell you on the idea of just a handful of markers which can barely tell which part of the planet a person is from. I think I will wait a few more years. Also, I heard National Geographic was only charging something like $99 for Y or X markers so they seem cheaper. 


It was a 44 marker test, those are the six markers which it says belong to the cohen lineage. It includes a mtdna test and is more comprehensive that the natgeo one, or so I'm told
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Koshur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2007 at 09:55
Originally posted by pumaaa123 pumaaa123 wrote:

Though it shares good characteristics, Kashmiri is a treated as a identical group like of the Nepali one in the sub-continent. But linking it with Jew, Arab and Greek is one another myth.

 

Together, a very latest DNA tests conducted over the sub-continent says that theres lot of arab/persian blood (up to 35%) in the sinds and punjabis of today pakistan because of frequent conquers and incorporation of islam in the region. The same can apply for the muslim kashmiris which has revealed here.



Punjabis and Sindhis show a lot Indic admiture too though, I however have none according to the dna company, which is what I find odd. Perhaps the Valley being so segregated and far north to the rest of India might have something to do with it, but that is what I'm trying to find out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2007 at 15:46
I did the Genographic test and my results were also contributed to Family Tree DNA.  They used the same results and gave me more info for free from them via Family Tree.  The Genographic Project cost MUCH less than $450 BTW...I believe somewhere around $125.   I'm planning to do the maternal one sometime this year or early next year.  That one should be interesting as well.   


Edited by Afghanan - 27-Jun-2007 at 15:49
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maqsad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2007 at 21:52
Originally posted by Koshur Koshur wrote:

Originally posted by pumaaa123 pumaaa123 wrote:

Though it shares good characteristics, Kashmiri is a treated as a identical group like of the Nepali one in the sub-continent. But linking it with Jew, Arab and Greek is one another myth.

 

Together, a very latest DNA tests conducted over the sub-continent says that theres lot of arab/persian blood (up to 35%) in the sinds and punjabis of today pakistan because of frequent conquers and incorporation of islam in the region. The same can apply for the muslim kashmiris which has revealed here.



Punjabis and Sindhis show a lot Indic admiture too though, I however have none according to the dna company, which is what I find odd. Perhaps the Valley being so segregated and far north to the rest of India might have something to do with it, but that is what I'm trying to find out.


Or perhaps that company is just set up to tell you if you have any Jewish, African or Native American genes or not LOL. Those are the three "special" tests on their website anyway.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Koshur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2007 at 03:58
Originally posted by maqsad maqsad wrote:



Or perhaps that company is just set up to tell you if you have any Jewish, African or Native American genes or not LOL. Those are the three "special" tests on their website anyway.


A lot of indian folks have had their tests done too, and the major haplogroup which represents the majority of the subcontinent is R1a. The thing about this Cohen lineage is that I possess the exact values of the 6 markers which they apparently use to show if you have ashkenzai ancestry. Although I'm sure I dont have jewish ancestry it still none the less shows that my Y ancestry originated from a different area.

I was hoping to find more information which supported/ didnt support a middle eastern origin of kashmiris.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote K. V. Ramakrishna Rao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2007 at 04:07
I think my question and as well as that of Elenos have not been answered.
History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2007 at 08:21

“I think my question and as well as that of Elenos have not been answered.”

Good point, Ramakrishna. What exactly are you looking for Koshur? As you well know that there have been ethnic disputes in Kashmir. The Moslem/Jewish disputes in the Middle East have affected ancient tribal relationships in Kashmir in an ongoing battle for the hearts and minds of the population.

A tribe that call themselves of Jewish decent has been known in Kashmir for very long time. However evidence for such a claim is unclear. The British Raj were more interested in preventing tribal disputes and kept a lid on it. I looked up the grave of Mary at Muree, it has now been cleared and Pakistani communications station erected there, yet early in the last century it had been rebuilt by a mullah.

As someone who has an interest in investigating history, I would ask why Jews would have been going to Kashmir over the ages. Obviously there is a Kashmiri tribe with Jewish characteristics even known by the ancient Greeks. Case closed? Not quite. Some biblical knowledge comes in handy here. When the “children of Israel” roamed the desert they looked for the “Promised Land”. They found not so much a land but a city called Canaan, they proceeded to descend upon it and take it over.

 The inhabitants were swamped by people from the hills but what could they do. From then on the age of Jewish Empire began. However, what happened to the Canaanites and where did they come from?

 The former educated population (they had writing) became assimilated and taught what they knew about city building and administration to the newcomers in exchange for protection and placement for their families in jobs that required higher education. It would have been a smart move for the early Israelites to allow the former population who cooperated to remain priests of the city, perhaps called Kohens and their job was to maintain the temples (more than just religious buildings at the time.)

These were the Canaanites, a Semitic people who appeared in history around 3000 B.C. The Greeks called them "Phoenicians" because of the purple dye they sold. They referred to themselves as "men of Sidon", and so called their country "Lebanon." They turned to the sea to make a living. Tyre and Sidon were important maritime and trade centers; Gubla (later known as Byblos and now as Jubayl) and Berytus (present-day Beirut) were their trade and religious centers.

Canaan was obviously an inland trading station. The inhabitants were probably abandoned and left to their own devices for about that time the Phoenicians fought a protracted war. The Egyptians tried to fill the power vacuum in the Mediterranean after the collapse of the Minoan Empire and they eventually lost.

A lot more can be deduced here, but the important thing is the link to a seagoing nation that sailed to India on a regular basis. I’m taking an educated guess here; perhaps a band of Canaanites from what is now Jerusalem in Israel fled to India to escape all the problems in the Mediterranean and eventually settled in the Kashmir valley? 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote K. V. Ramakrishna Rao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2007 at 20:58
As an Indian, I am clear about what I am looking Koshor or anybody who discusses the same issue in any angle.
 
Your response appears to have been heavily imbibed with theology.
 
Making "Kashmir" as the centre-point of "Bible" has taken away the peace of innocent people of that area, particularly Indians.
 
Why the affected people should be viewed in the scriptural shades. Instead, they can be allowed to settle down peacefully and grow and join main-stream for betterment.
 
Enough is enough.
 
Let them live peacefully.
 
Let us not divide by any factor.


Edited by K. V. Ramakrishna Rao - 28-Jun-2007 at 20:59
History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past.
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