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Forum LockedJust how could Persia lose to Greece?

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Asawar Hazaraspa View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Asawar Hazaraspa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2008 at 11:59

As we know that horsed units such as cavalry played a significant role in the military culture of early Iranics, Achamenids were no exception but as we understood of the accounts of battles such as Guagamala as an example of the late Achaemenid, apart from the nature of a disorderly army composed of mercenaries, although cavalry were important, we see no brilliance as from the part of the cavalry. Comparing this with the quoted cavalry brilliance of the Parthians and Sassanids in many Roman accounts we can conclude that Achaemenids didn't pay heed to this matter like Parthians for instance. Another mysterious point is the defeat of the Darius I at hands of Scythians, this also to some extent shows that Scythians were superior in terms of employing cavalry and Achaemenids somehow receded from this old Iranian tradition of warmongering. (also considering the fact that one of the main reasons of their defeat was fighting in the enemy's ground far away from supplies and home). 

The importance of this is despite Macedo-Greek warfare development which was a substantial factor in defeating Achaemenids, Phalanx regiments actually faced major problems fighting Parni (Parthian) and Scythian cavalry especially their horse-archers, whose fighting style was more Iranian than Achaemenids, the thing which led in the overthrowing of the two Macedo-Greek Kingdoms in eatern lands of Alexander's empire (i.e. Seleucid empire and the powerful Greek Bactrian kingdom). 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ardashir Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2008 at 13:48
I think the internal fightings and rivalries between various Perso-Median officers, princes, etc played a vital role in the defeat of the Achamaneids.  Also it should be noted that Philip's new military tactics (phalanx) were really important. Actually the Macedonians defeated the Greeks and occupied Greece before their victories over the Persians. Thus I would say, Macedonian military was superior to both Greek and Persian military. Don't forget that in the early battles of Alex, there were more Greek mercenaries on Darius' army then on Macedonain's army.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2008 at 16:47
Another thing to keep in mind is that Alexanders men were trained in pankration


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2008 at 20:01
Originally posted by Count Belisarius Count Belisarius wrote:

Another thing to keep in mind is that Alexanders men were trained in pankration
 
 
I'm not aware of that. Any sources?
 
Even if they were, how would that help them in battle?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2008 at 00:50
Here you go
 
 
It would help a lot in battle do you think they just swung their weapons at each other? you win a lot faster if you get in close punch the guy, throw him down and then stab him and on the lightly armored persians it would be devestating  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darius of Parsa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2008 at 01:27
Originally posted by Count Belisarius Count Belisarius wrote:

Here you go
 
 
It would help a lot in battle do you think they just swung their weapons at each other? you win a lot faster if you get in close punch the guy, throw him down and then stab him and on the lightly armored persians it would be devestating  


And lightly armoured men are much more mobile and respond to attacks more easily.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darius of Parsa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2008 at 01:27
Originally posted by Count Belisarius Count Belisarius wrote:

Here you go
 
 
It would help a lot in battle do you think they just swung their weapons at each other? you win a lot faster if you get in close punch the guy, throw him down and then stab him and on the lightly armored persians it would be devestating  


And lightly armoured men are more mobile and respond to attacks more easily.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2008 at 01:36
But if you can't get through the phalangites armor (one of the greeks biggest advantages) there's no point, besides the persians didn't have pankration


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2008 at 01:37
Yeah but you can't get through the greeks armor, which was one of the greeks biggest advantages, and the persiand didn't have pankration 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2008 at 01:40
yeah but you can't get through the greeks armor which was one of the greeks biggest advantages, and the persians didn't have pankration


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darius of Parsa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2008 at 02:33
Lighter armoured men can defeat heavily armoured men. Take a look at the crusades for an example. The lighter armoured Muslim cavalry and infantry defeated many heavily armoured crusaders. There are numerous instances where the lighter Persian army defeated heavier Greek troops. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2008 at 02:59
Yes I know that however there are also a lot of instances where the heavily armored man won like Alexanders men light troops and samurai are not the be all and end all of armies


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darius of Parsa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2008 at 03:04
Originally posted by Count Belisarius Count Belisarius wrote:

Yes I know that however there are also a lot of instances where the heavily armored man won like Alexanders men light troops and samurai are not the be all and end all of armies


Heavy, medium, and light armour all has its advantages and disadvantages, but I would not say the Greeks had an advantage because they had heavy armour.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2008 at 03:08
Confused Read about thermopylae, read about the pelopenniasian wars, read about every conflict between the greeks and persians


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darius of Parsa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2008 at 03:14
I have, in fact this is one of my strongest areas, along with the conquests of Cyrus, Cambyses, and Darius.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2008 at 03:17
Those were cool timesSmile dangerous as all get out but cool none the lessSmile


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darius of Parsa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2008 at 03:20
Certainly interesting, as with all eras of history. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darius of Parsa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2008 at 03:26
Originally posted by TJK TJK wrote:

There were many reasons.. 
Starting from the end of  persian-greek war in the beginnig of V centaury BC, Greeks have recognized their miltary system is superior to the Persian..this was confirmed during the civil wars in Persia - especially during the Cyrus the Younger expedition. Greek military supriopriority was still not enough to conquer the whole Persian Empire when the greeks was not united..It was also well known in Persopolis.. thus the principle of Persian rulers politics was to not admit that the single Greek state will have the dominat position..this politics works well in V and in first half of IV cenatury. This was however ruined when the two brillant successive figures have occured in near Greece area. Macedonian king Philip II have introduced the revolutionary changes to the art of warfare and due to its impementation have subordinated the whole Greece. Philip's son - Alexander have developed his fahter's ideas as well in wafare as in ambitions.

Thus the main reasons were:
  • the genius of greek/macedonians leaders
  • the  supriority of greek/macedonian warfare
  • decentalization of Persian Empire 


You cannot pin Greek and Persian tactics against each other because there are too many differences.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2008 at 15:56
Guys don't turn this thread into another two man historical amusement show!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Batu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2008 at 22:04
Originally posted by jamshidi_f jamshidi_f wrote:

PERSIA NEVER LOST TO GREECE OR THE GAY ALEXANDER AND BEATED THE HELL OUT OF THEM. MOREOVER AFTER GREEK OR ARAB OR MONGOLIAN INVASIONS PERSIA RISED AGAIN WHILE GREECE WAS FADED IN HISTORY UNTIL THE LAST CENTURY BY ROMANS.


here you are Khan.Its the Persian perspective of Alex-Persia wars Tongue
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