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Forum LockedJews in medieval history

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Gallipoli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Jews in medieval history
    Posted: 31-Aug-2004 at 08:41
Well that is not my estimate, official Jewish records...I can track it down if you like.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ihsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Sep-2004 at 17:10
Numbers from the records of historical sources aren't much valid in general, they tend to be exaggarated.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Catón Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2004 at 14:16

Originally posted by MixcoatlToltecahtecuhtli

(...)Indeed Ladino (aka Judeo-Spanish) is a Spanish dialect:

Though it is hard to say if something is a language or a dialect, sefardí (Judeo-Spanish or Ladino) is very close to Spanish. The translation in Spanish for the poem:

Non komo muestro Dio,
Non komo muestro Sinyor,
Non komo muestro Rey,
Non komo muestro Salvador.

would be:

No como nuestro Dios
No como nuestro Señor
No como nuestro Rey
No como nuestro Salvador

As Mix has said Ladin is almost extinguished.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2004 at 10:47
Its still spoken in parts of the Americas IIRC, Mexico or somewhere, can't renember.
My understanding is that it is basicly old (medival/rannasiance) Castilian with a sprinkling of Hebrew words, likewise Yiddish is Middle German with a sprinkling of Hebrew and so on..
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2004 at 13:56

Originally posted by Gallipoli

Well that is not my estimate, official Jewish records...I can track it down if you like.

 

I think that claim is ridiculous...

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2004 at 22:44

Originally posted by Gallipoli

Well that is not my estimate, official Jewish records...I can track it down if you like.

 

Even if they killed that many people, many of them probably were not actual Jews, just accused and slaughtered in a ferver of fanatiscim.

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I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2004 at 22:49
Hmm actualy, i think it was Andalucian, not Castilian, though the difference is probably trivial anyways.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2004 at 11:12
Originally posted by Tobodai

Even if they killed that many people, many of them probably were not actual Jews, just accused and slaughtered in a ferver of fanatiscim.

 

well, the main question that puzzles me here is: why slaughterig all Jews on the way to the holy land but letting those in the HRE alive?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Evildoer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2004 at 22:08

I heard of German peasent-mobs massacring Jews during First Crusade... but I think massacres during Third Crusade is doubtful. At that time Frederik Barbarossa was leading them.

There is a myth about how Jews were docile victims of persecution... but racism and bigotry was mutual. Quotes from Talmud (Jewish religious book used alongside the Torah) are disturbing. The website below gives a variety of examples of racist-fascist quotes.

http://www.truthbeknown.com/talmudquotes.htm



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Post Options Post Options   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2004 at 13:22
ok, it seems there where prosecutions ont he first crusade (and the crusades in general) which led to a series of protection laws for Jews (including one where they had to wear distinctive cloth, like in Nazi Germany). only during the great plague (1347-54), 350 jewish communtities in Germany were prosectuted and fled eastwards into Poland. the only major communities left in Germany were in Cologne, Mainz and Prague.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote MengTzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2004 at 18:42

Hey all,

    The status of Jews in Medieval Europe is actually quite similar to the Gypsies.  Also analogous are the African Americans in America.  The Jewish Holocaust didn't come out of the blue as a result of Nazism -- Nazism being the direct and principle cause of it, this sentiment had been brewing for centuries of anti-Semitism.  The stereotype of the wealthy and successful Jews is a recent thing (really started last century.)  For millenia they were the outcasts of Europe (also convenient tools of European monarchs.  As Christians weren't allowed to give loans for interests, and as Jews weren't Christians, some Jews became bankers with the support of the states for valuable tax revenue.  A lot of money was taxed from these Jewish bankers, and at the same time, the stereotype of the blood-sucking Jewish money lenders perpetuated among the Europeans, who saw the Jews as the taxcollectors of the state.  It was a no win situation for the Jews.)  The Jews were better off during the first millenium, but their status incrementally worsened during the High Middle Ages.  Many were confined to the ghettos (which turned out to be a quite a blessing, ironically, as this solidified the solidarity of the European Jews, and fostered philosophical and religious training thus producing many great minds and perhaps served as a precursor of the tremendous academic successes of the Jews in recent history.)  Things only got progressively worse as Southern France saw an increase of Christian heresies, and the Inquisition was born.  Originally the Inquisition has nothing to do with the Jews, but as time went by the Jews were also targeted (particularly during the Spanish Inquisition.)  Jews who converted to Christianity were viewed with suspicion because the Spanish feared that they were just doing so to avoid trouble.  Then the old order of things was receding and the new order of the Enlightenment began, only to make things worse for the Jews.  The propaganda in the pretext of humanism convinced the Jews to lose their religious identity and "become everybody else."  Many Jews began to renounce their Jewish-ness, and embrace Europe as the Holy Land.  Problem being that as much as they want in, the Europeans weren't so welcoming.  Racial theories began to flourish in the Enlightenment, and culminated in the eugenic theories of Nazism.  Conspiracy theories suggesting that the Jews are trying to take over the world still survives, and European anti-semitism is on the rise.  I'm not trying to make Europeans look like the bad guys here: a remarkable amount of Europeans rescued the Jews from the Nazi, and throughout history many Europeans sympathized with the Jews.  (Robin Hood himself aided the Jews, after all.)  The Church was also instrumental in various occassions in protecting the Jews from the unsympathetic populace.  It's therefore wrong to say that the Europeans were always the bad guys; fact remains that the Jews had a really tough history in Europe, that's all.

Peace,

Michael

9-29-2004



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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2004 at 12:37
For millenia they were the outcasts of Europe


Millenia?
They've only been in much of Europe for the best part of 1 millenium

But in general thats very simplistic, the humanism bit didn't encourage most Jews to 'lose their identity', quite the opposite, it created an enviroment where they could be more open about their Jewishness in public, this is especialy true in Germany, which was then met by a move in the opposite direction towards the end of the 1800s, as revolutionary fevour swept the continent, scapegoats were needed, and as nationalism moved from the old rommantic kind, to the more sinsiter varient (that still exists everywhere today) it gave rise to another wave of anti-semitism, especialy in parts of central and Eastern Europe (pograms etc.).

And the inquisition didn't touch Jews in the religious sense, they were outright expelled by the state (Spain), or confined to ghettos (Italy), rather, ex-Jews who had converted to Christianity in the 1400s and their desendants of later generations, began to be suspected of retaining parts of their faith (the refusal by authorities to seperate religion from culture), and thus ended up being prosecuted.

I'd have to contest the comparison to 'Gypsies', the Roma in particular, and other traveler groups in general, were functionaly excluded from urban and settled society on all levels, made worse by the preference for travelling around and not living anywhere permenantly, they were always outsiders regarded with suspicion.
The Jews on the other hand, were often given niches in society where they were allowed to establish themselves and even prosper, and general sentiment towards them would fluctuate. Granted, this is still descrimination, but not the absolute exclusion dished out onto the traveler groups.
Same goes to the Anfro-Americans too, Jews could aspite to be near-equals but still outsiders, Roma/gypsies in general and Afro-Americans in their respective societies were scum even at the best of times.

Modern rise of anti-semitism is much todo with a muslim backlash against Israel, though many in Europe are reluctant to deal with that, it seems they would rather be regarded as anti-Jewish than Anti-Muslim (realities of economics and iplomacy?).
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Evildoer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2004 at 18:38

The so called "anti-Semitism" in Europe is just a cliched rubbish. Israel will lable anyone or anything that opposes its goverenment as anti-Semite. Say something like "Israeli government is not doing enough to improve the lot of Palestinians" and accusations of being a nazi will fly in your face.

I'd say Semite-supremeism is a greater threat to the world than anti-Semitism these days. Jews were always victims and just because of that "fact" they have right to take over other peoples' land and enforce an apartheid...

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote MengTzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2004 at 23:39

Hey Cywr,

Originally posted by Cywr

For millenia they were the outcasts of Europe


Millenia?
They've only been in much of Europe for the best part of 1 millenium

Actually, after the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD, Europe was one of the places that the Jews mass migrated to.  Even prior to that, the Mediterranean area was a main area of the diaspora.

But in general thats very simplistic, the humanism bit didn't encourage most Jews to 'lose their identity', quite the opposite, it created an enviroment where they could be more open about their Jewishness in public, this is especialy true in Germany, which was then met by a move in the opposite direction towards the end of the 1800s, as revolutionary fevour swept the continent, scapegoats were needed, and as nationalism moved from the old rommantic kind, to the more sinsiter varient (that still exists everywhere today) it gave rise to another wave of anti-semitism, especialy in parts of central and Eastern Europe (pograms etc.).

The problem is, even if they could, DID they choose to become more openly Jewish.  I'm relying on a Jewish source here, but it says that at one point many Jews wanted to lose their distinctive Jewishness.

And the inquisition didn't touch Jews in the religious sense, they were outright expelled by the state (Spain), or confined to ghettos (Italy), rather, ex-Jews who had converted to Christianity in the 1400s and their desendants of later generations, began to be suspected of retaining parts of their faith (the refusal by authorities to seperate religion from culture), and thus ended up being prosecuted.

Hey, that's exactly what I said   According to the Catholic laws the Inquisition wasn't suppose to investigate non-Christian, as it was an effort to find heretics, and heretics are by default Christians who defected from orthodox teachings (Jews and Muslims are therefore never heretics.  They are just non-Christians.)  A major reason that Jews become involved was the suspicion of insincere conversion to Christianity (something that we've both mentioned, so I don't know what you're argue against here.)

I'd have to contest the comparison to 'Gypsies', the Roma in particular, and other traveler groups in general, were functionaly excluded from urban and settled society on all levels, made worse by the preference for travelling around and not living anywhere permenantly, they were always outsiders regarded with suspicion.
The Jews on the other hand, were often given niches in society where they were allowed to establish themselves and even prosper, and general sentiment towards them would fluctuate. Granted, this is still descrimination, but not the absolute exclusion dished out onto the traveler groups.

Interesting distinction.

Same goes to the Anfro-Americans too, Jews could aspite to be near-equals but still outsiders, Roma/gypsies in general and Afro-Americans in their respective societies were scum even at the best of times.

Have some Jews aspired (except in exceptional cases) to the same level of successful Europeans in Medieval Europe?

Modern rise of anti-semitism is much todo with a muslim backlash against Israel, though many in Europe are reluctant to deal with that, it seems they would rather be regarded as anti-Jewish than Anti-Muslim (realities of economics and iplomacy?).

Absolutely.  Islam is an important ideological support for anti-semitism today.  And yeah, while the US is politically ally of Israel, it seems that Europe is much more the Muslim side of this conflict.  Perhaps the real conflict is between US and Europe.

Peace,

Michael

10-4-2004

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2004 at 02:09
The problem is, even if they could, DID they choose to become more openly Jewish.  I'm relying on a Jewish source here, but it says that at one point many Jews wanted to lose their distinctive Jewishness.


Well no-one was forcing them to be openly Jewish. But anyways, i was thinking in particular of Germany, late 1700s through 1800s, granted near citizenship (possibly even full citizenship?), they effectivly became a more functuional part of German society in some cities, and thus became more visible and open, synigogues were no longer hidden away, but openly declared their purpose etc. Similar thing happened in the UK after citizenship was granted.
Netherlands is different again, but then they had been a relative bastian of religious tolerance since the 1400s, hence the reason 35,000 of the jews expelled from spain moved there.
Define 'distinctive Jewishness'. Seems to me most of them were intent on keeping the basics of their faith, which, above all else, is what makes them most distinct.

Have some Jews aspired (except in exceptional cases) to the same level of successful Europeans in Medieval Europe?


In cities where such opportunities were permited, yes, never as succesfull as noblemen obviously. Theres odd stuff of jews being promenant in different trades in different cities, shoemakers here, jewelry there, and so on, partly because they were allowed free reign in certain niches, probably a way of covering for labour shortages in certain areas or whatever. Prosporous, untill the local leader(s) needed a scapegoat.

And yeah, i missed your inquisition bit.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Evildoer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2004 at 14:40

You are mistaken in one point: Anti-Israel stance taken by Europe is not anti-semitism. Saying that it is anti-Semitism is as ridiculous as saying that just because Canadian government is an enemy of NK, it is anti-Korean (as a people).

Europe was on the Israeli side all along till very recently, and only France is really changing. Germany is still under the grip of "Nazi guilt", a large portion of East Europe (ie. Poland) is American-dominated in foreign affairs, Italy is rightist Pro-US.

Don't know about Spain and Portugal.



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Post Options Post Options   Quote MengTzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2004 at 21:51

Hey Cwyr,

    About losing Jewishness: during the 18th century or so, many Jews wanted to stop being Jews, period.  From Orthodox Judaism's point of view, there really isn't such a thing as Jewish race -- certainly, one born of a Jewish mother is a Jew, but Jewishness is also a matter of religiosity.  There's, therefore, no such thing as "half-Jewish" from Orthodox Judaism's piont of view.  Therefore, when these Jews were trying to lose their distinctive Jewishness, it isn't quite the same as a White person trying to stop being White; it's like one trying to renounce his culture and religion.  (Of course, from a religious point of view, a Jew can never stop being a Jew.)  With that said, a lot of Jews at the time believed that being granted citizenship was a sign that they can finally become a part of European society -- and at the same vein, they decided to assimilate.  Marx's father, for example, converted to Christianity, and Marx himself tried to get into a seminary to study.  There were slogans of sorts for the German Jews, saying that their holy land is now Germany.  That is what I mean by losing distinctive Jewishness.  Of course, that seemed to be the theory of the day: right now, the liberal academia favors pluralism, and many Jews are certainly much more adamant about keeping their Jewishness, even those who do not practice religious Judaism.

    Regarding prosperity: while it was possible to become a successful merchant, for a long time a merchant was not on the same level, as you said, as a noble.  The Jews were rather forced to take up trades that weren't prosperous: medicine, banking, etc, -- the irony being that these things are now some of the most prestigious professions.

    One thing that is particularly interesting is the disproportional success of modern Jews.  Some Orthodox Jews say that that's a sign that they are God's chosen people.  I'd suggest that sociological explanations can give us some clues.  I think it has a lot to do with the history of the Christian West and the Islamic countries, in both of which the Jews had a long history of residence.

Peace,

Michael

10-6-2004



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Post Options Post Options   Quote MengTzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2004 at 21:52

Hey evildoer,

    You misunderstood me.  Anti-Israeli isn't the same as anti-semitic, but the point is that Europe is increasingly anti-Israeli AS WELL AS anti-semitic.  The two things are not the same, and they need not go together, but in Europe's case, they do.  (On the popular level, of course, the Arabs aren't exactly treated well either.  But at least anti-semitism seems more vocal.)

Peace,

Michael

10-6-2004

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2004 at 22:11
With that said, a lot of Jews at the time believed that being granted citizenship was a sign that they can finally become a part of European society -- and at the same vein, they decided to assimilate.  Marx's father, for example, converted to Christianity, and Marx himself tried to get into a seminary to study.  There were slogans of sorts for the German Jews, saying that their holy land is now Germany.  That is what I mean by losing distinctive Jewishness.


Relativly few converted to Christianity, and they'd arguably already become more 'European' long before the 1700s. But what you say is hardly losing distictive Jewishness, on the contrary, its creating a new distinctive breed of Jewishness, German Jewishness, whish was long in the making anyways (Yiddish), the freer more pluralistic enviroment in Germany in teh late 1700s early 1800s simply brought that out in the open.

Of course, that seemed to be the theory of the day: right now, the liberal academia favors pluralism


It depends entirely on where you are really, the Netherlands had long stuck with pluralism, and public opinion there today is moving in teh opposite direction, to accomadate the issues of muslims living in their society, there is a call for greater assimilation (in sharp contrast to to a few decades ago), for each country its different. Maybe everywhere swings back and fore to their own tune.

Regarding prosperity: while it was possible to become a successful merchant, for a long time a merchant was not on the same level, as you said, as a noble.


Obviously, being a nobleman was a heriditory priviledge, most of the country was excluded from that status.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote MengTzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2004 at 01:36

Hey Cwyr,

     I suppose it's an arguable point regarding Jewish identity.  I'm basing my opinion on an Orthodox Jewish website's perspective on that Era.  Perhaps losing even a bit of Jewishness is too much from that perspective.

    Regarding pluralism: I should qualify it and say that this is the trend in America, and the Jews I spoke of are American Jews.  American Jews (I actually have a Jewish uncle in New York) tend to be pretty gung ho about their Jewish identity, even if they don't practice religiously.

    My point about nobility is that Jews had no rights to it because of their identity, which is different from simply not having inherited it.

Peace,

Michael

10-6-2004

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