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Forum LockedIs Islam threatened by Pluralism & Liberalism?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote cahaya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Is Islam threatened by Pluralism & Liberalism?
    Posted: 02-Jan-2009 at 04:31
There was a statement by one of the Mufti in Malaysia saying,


“If left unchecked, liberalism and pluralism will be difficult to control,”


Is it so serious that these two ideologies can give such effect to Muslims?



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Post Options Post Options   Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2009 at 05:00

Most religions which claim to have the "one true answer" are to some degree threatened by pluralism, simply because pluralism is founded on the idea that there is no answer that's suitable for everyone.

But it all depends on the practitioner ... certainly some practitioners, even of religions which claim to have the absolute answer, have found ways to resolve this disconnect.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote cahaya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2009 at 05:43

For me, in Islam context, Pluralism is kind of obvious .. i wont say threat. It's more like definite different faith. So for muslims, it cant be adapted.

But for liberalism.. if a Muslim assimilates the ideology with Islamic view.. is it wrong?


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2009 at 10:31
I don't know exactly what is meant by pluralism or liberalism in this context. I mean, in some contexts both are good, and in others bad.
So generally I disagree with the quote, because I feel that the Mufti is saying little more than "listen to us, we know better than you", which would imply he probably doesn't.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2009 at 14:42
I think if you look into history you would find pluralism & liberalism in Muslim states pre-colonial era. These expressions though change their meaning with time and are hard to discuss without context. I doubt if Islam could really have prospered in the middle east without being pluralistic, i guess the environment demands it. As for liberalism with it's general connotations today, aspects of it may/will be at odds with the Islamic and most other religions. Historically, there may have been Islamic concepts that may have appeared liberal in their age.
 
As for this mufti's comment, i suspect it to be politically inspired. It may be a veiled, indirect reference to the minorities and their growing strength. He may percieve them as a  potential threat posed to the Malay, in terms of alternative values.  I could be completely wrong of course.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Parnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2009 at 16:01
I think this is an old debate, but I still don't believe Islamic radicals have truly augmented their position in the Islamic world. Even from encountering Muslims online, and reading websites from Muslims in the Islamic world online, its clear there are enlightened minds over there just like any other part of the world. I think we can discount the view that the two are incompatible.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2009 at 16:15
I agree with Omar; I think we'd need a bit more clarification and context to discuss this issue.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote cahaya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2009 at 17:25
My curiosity is based on this statements.. i knw.. it's kinda back dated..

http://www.fnfmalaysia.org/www/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=216:religion-a-liberalism-is-religion-a-threat-to-liberalism&catid=7:latest-news&Itemid=31

 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sun Tzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2009 at 20:39
In the beginning of Islam the Muslims at the time were some of most forward thinking people.They were much more advanced than Feudal age Europe in areas like Mathematics, Architecture, and Astronomy so I couldn't see why they wouldn't be forward thinking today. I think the reason is too is that some Muslims may feel uneasy with changing tradition because of their relationship with their religion. In Turkey I beleive they don't have to cover their face and some men wear suits. In general it's tough for me to decide because although Muslims may be forward thinking they hold on their religion and traditions more than other religions. Which isn't such a bad thing I think some may not what their Governments to be more Western. So I don't think they feel threatened they just feel a bit reluctant to allow secularism and Liberalism into their systems because of their strong bond with Islam.

Edited by Sun Tzu - 02-Jan-2009 at 20:49
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Post Options Post Options   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 20:33
In the beginning of Islam the Muslims at the time were some of most forward thinking people.They were much more advanced than Feudal age Europe in areas like Mathematics, Architecture, and Astronomy

I would agree the Muslim Arabs made contributions to the world but much of what they knew was built upon the knowledge of the civilization they conquered, Byzantine, Persian and Indian. Even our numbering system is called Arabic but it came from India so in reality it is Hindu.

No shame about this because it has been a common theme throughout history.

The Romans also built upon conquests.

than Feudal age

The Byzantines never lost it!! or went into a dark age like the west half of the Roman Empire did.

There are a number of good books about this but Off hand I cannot recall them.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote harigata_sama Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2009 at 14:03
I remember reading Prawdin's description of the circumstances of Tamerlane's birth (~1335). The father had a dream, and he went to his mullah for an interpretation. He was told that a great son would be born to him, a great conqueror who, among other things, would put an end to all those noxious innovations and new ideas.

Islam is not the only religion that fears change. Change means that those who hold power in the current state of affairs are likely to lose some or all of it, should too much of it be introduced into their society. And religion, in my view, is the great ancestor of politics and still one of the major active forces in it. Religious thought is inflexible, dogmatic, new ideas mean God was wrong, or that a long model of justification needs to be worked out.

So what about the great era of Islam? Very simple. It was an energetic explosion of a barbaric nation sweeping over the old degenerate civilizations surrounding it. And do not dismiss the barbarians of early medieval Europe so quickly. They were the rejuvenating force that made the growth of modern Europe possible, on the ruins of the decaying Roman empire. By the time feudal Europe began to smell bad, the old muslim kingdoms of the east were like fruit rotting on the trees, ready for conquerors from the far east to come and pick them off.

At that point in history after Mohammed's death they had been finally united, after ages of infighting, and full of energy. The dogma and the rigidigfication of thought came later, when that wave had spent its energy and had been checked by the nations that had been powerful enough to do so, all around it.

I think I've said enough for now,
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2009 at 17:36
If you look in the past, you´ll see that the same procedure happened with Christianity (16th century onwards) and Judaism ( Orthodox - Reformist Jews). This fear is a general trend in the Abrahamic religions , which could possibly derive from their monolithic character.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote harigata_sama Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2009 at 03:48
I think this trend was already present in pre-Abrahamic religions, though I am not enough informed about them to give examples. As for Christianity and Judaism, dogma had already set into them long before the era's you've mentioned. Monolithic, monotheistic..... evolutionary phases. This would happen to any religion in any region of the world, provided society would reach a certain level of complexity there. I think it was happening, in a primitive, even naive fashion in late Mezo-American religions also.

This is actually becoming part of the great discussion I might feel brave enough to start one day, about the evolution of religion & society.

Well,
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Post Options Post Options   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2009 at 04:13
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

I don't know exactly what is meant by pluralism or liberalism in this context. I mean, in some contexts both are good, and in others bad.
So generally I disagree with the quote, because I feel that the Mufti is saying little more than "listen to us, we know better than you", which would imply he probably doesn't.
 


Pretty much spot on Omar. One of those " We have the answers for you so don't use your brain and listen" type of deals. Which usually means they are wrong and your brain most likely is coming up to the right conclusion by itself. LOL

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Post Options Post Options   Quote harigata_sama Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2009 at 05:33
But the Mufti is right in one important aspect - many need assurances, not free thinking. Free thinking is for those who can freely think. Most just know how to survive, economically, or make money, and need certain truths to be set in stone, providing them with security and with a way of thinking according to which they are right and those who are not like them / not part of their social circle / Their enemies or economical rivals are wrong. Thus "those who are wrong" can be hated and blamed for all what is wrong with the world, or with their lives in particular. I've seen it done by my neighbors, blaming Arabs for everything ("the Arabs in Gaza are just lazy, they like engaging in terror"), by Arabs, blaming Israel for everything, anti-Semites, blaming Jews for all that is wrong in the world, etc, etc, the world will never get tired of this.
What is the use of free thinking, if you cannot put the results of such thinking to good use? Free thinking only causes pain, the pain of the realization that you are not special, you're just like everybody else, you do not deserve special treatment (as we have been led to believe in childhood). But those beliefs were given us as substitute to our natural, animal instincts, which must be repressed in order for the existence of society to be possible. In organized society most people are stuck, tied to their place - the serf to his field, the business executive to his job, etc. You are not free to go where you please, so why think freely? What is the point?

Hell, I should stop posting here and go sell Indulgences!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2009 at 09:24
If religion is threatened by reason? Of course it is.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Young Tatar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2009 at 10:50
Umm.. I don't think Pluralism is a threat for Islam. But Liberalism threats Ä°slam. Because, liberalist people want to earn a lot, use people like machines, they do everything to be richer. So, they use Islam, too. They make people hate Islam. Islam isn't so weak, if it were weak, it would be destroyed by Pluralism. But Pluralism helps us to find what good is for us, Muslims.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2009 at 15:44
I am not quite sure what you are talking about? Liberalism isn't necessarily all about the neccessity and procurment of wealth - that would be capitalism if anything.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Mar-2009 at 02:08
Islam isn't threatened by Pluralism & Liberalism but some muslims who claim to be leaders and those who want to control and keep people under their thumb do fear anything which questions their rule.

Islam encourages science, technology, learning, reasoning and questioning, however, an educated, enlightened, free thinking people is a nightmare for some so-called muslim leaders.

The problem is not religion, its people trying to use and manipulate it for personal power and gains.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Mar-2009 at 02:19
Originally posted by Bulldog

Islam isn't threatened by Pluralism & Liberalism but some muslims who claim to be leaders and those who want to control and keep people under their thumb do fear anything which questions their rule.

Islam encourages science, technology, learning, reasoning and questioning, however, an educated, enlightened, free thinking people is a nightmare for some so-called muslim leaders.

The problem is not religion, its people trying to use and manipulate it for personal power and gains.
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