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Forum LockedIs Germanic a subgroup of the Iranian languages?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2009 at 15:17

I found an interesting map from 200 AD here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernyakhov

It seems Gothic language could have a strong influence on the Saksin language two centuries before their migration to Germany, of course Iranian Iazyges were in the south of the Germanic lands in this period too.



Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 17-Jan-2009 at 15:19
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Some Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2009 at 18:25
(I have idit this maessage because I forgot to add some info)
First of Cyrus you have proven to me that linguistics is not your strongest side.
 
And mass lexial compairasion IS NOT linguistical science
 
Here is a list of varited langauges of diffrent linguistical groups and langauges some close related some completly far of. IT is easy to prove anything with lexical compairasion so it is not consider linguistical science.
''
Chinese  ren     'person'

Quechua  runa    'person'



Chinese  ch'ung  'insect'

Quechua  chinchi 'type of insect'

English  chigger



Chinese  shui    'water'

Quechua  sut'u   'wet'

French   suée    'sweat'

Greek    hudor   'water'

Dutch    schuit  'boat'

Turkish  su      'water'



Chinese  shuohua 'talk'

Quechua  suka    'whistle'

French   charler 'chat'



Chinese  lao     'old'

Quechua  laqla   'old'

Tok Psn. lapun   'old'



Chinese  nai     'breast'

Quechua  ñuñu    'breast'

French   néné    'breast'

Bulgar.  nenka   'breast'



Chinese  sheng   'rise'

Quechua  seqay   'rise'



Chinese  cheh    'this'

Quechua  chay    'that'

French   ce      'this/that'



Chinese  chihfan 'eat'

Quechua  chipay  'close mouth'

French   chef    'cook'



Chinese  chung   'middle'

Quechua  chawpi  'center'

Italian centro 'center' (c = ch)




Chinese  ti      'earth'

Quechua  tiksimuyu 'earth'

Spanish  tierra  'earth'



Chinese  ch'ing  'please'

Quechua  hinay   'do thus'



Chinese  wang    'king'

Quechua  waminqa 'chief'



Chinese  you     'again'

Quechua  yapa    'addition'

Spanish  ya      'already'



Chinese  kung    'work'

Quechua  kunay   'carry'

English  gung-ho 'eager to work'



Chinese  ch'uan  'river'

Quechua  chumay  'dip in water'

Spanish  chupar  'drink, suck'

Dutch    schoon  'clean'



Chinese  lai     'come'

Quechua  riy     'go'

French   aller   'go'



Chinese  ai      'love'

Quechua  ayni    'mutual help'

French   aimer   'love'



Chinese  san     'mountain'

Quechua  senqa   'mountain peak'

French   chaîne  'mountain range'



Chinese  nü      'woman'

Quechua  ñusta   'princess'

Dutch    nuf     'aloof girl'

Greek    (gy)ne  'woman'

Latin    (femi)na'woman'

French   nana    'woman'

German   -in     fem. suffix



Chinese  ma      'mother'

Quechua  mama    'mother'

French   maman   'mother'



Chinese  nan     'difficult'

Quechua  nanaq   'painful'



Chinese  kei     'give'

Quechua  qoy     'give'

Scots    gie     'give'
''

Languages that truly are related can have congantes that are not similear in sound,
Here with English and Hindi
 
''cakka:       wheel

pa:nch       five

si:~g        horn

chah         six

pissu:       flea ''
 
 
One can also look at the Germanic to find the same , Swedish jord and English earth are related but because of diffrent they are no longer prounounced the same.
 


Edited by Some - 17-Jan-2009 at 18:31
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Some Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2009 at 19:19
Ok a text in Old Saxon.
 
339-42 Thô warð fon Rûmuburg     rîkes mannes
  obar alla thesa irminthiod     Octauiânas
  ban endi bodskepi      obar thea is brêdon giuuald
  cumin fon themu kêsure     cuningo gihuilicun,
  hêmsitteandiun,     sô uuîdo sô is heritogon
  obar al that landskepi     liudio giuueldun,
345 Hiet man that alla thes elilendiun man    iro ôðil sôhton,
356b-61a                             Thô giuuêt im ôc mid is hîuuisca
  Ioseph the gôdo,      sô it god mahtig,
  uualdand uuelda;     sôhta im thiu uuânamon hêm,
  thea burg an Bethleem,    thar iro beiðero uuas,
  thes heliðes handmahal     endi ôc thea hêlagun thiornun,
  Marian thera gôðun.           ...
369-70 that iru an them sîða   sunu ōðan warð,
  giboran an Bethleem    barno strangost,
378b-82a                                 Thô ina thiu môðar nam,
  biuuand ina mid uuâdiu     uuîbo scôniost,
  fagaron fratahun,     endi ina mid iro folmon tuêem
  legda lioflîco    luttilna man,
  that kind an êna cribbiun.

Glosses: 339 rîki 'mighty'; 340 irmin-thiod 'human-folk, people'; 341 ban 'command', bodskepi 'message', giuuald '(power), empire'; 342 gihuilik '(to) each'; 343 hêm-sittiand 'prince', heritogo 'ruler'; 344 landskepi 'empire', giuualdan 'rule'; 345 hêtan 'command', elilendi 'foreign, away from home', ôðil 'homeland', sôkian 'seek'; 356 gi-wîtan 'set out', hîwiski 'family'; 358 willian 'wish'; sôkian 'seek', wânam 'beautiful', hêm 'homeland'; 359 bêðie 'both'; 360 helið 'man, hero', hand-mahal 'homeland', thiorna 'virgin, maiden'; 369 sîð 'journey', ôðan 'granted, bestowed'; 370 strang 'powerful, mighty'; 378 niman 'take, accept'; 379 bi-windan 'wrap', wâd 'clothes', wîf 'woman, wife', skôni 'beautiful'; 380 fagar 'beautiful, charming', frataha 'adornment, attire', folmos 'arms', twêne 'two'; 381 leggian 'lay', lioflîco 'lovely'; 382 ên 'a', kribbia 'crib'.

Compare that to Old High German
 
1. Uuard thô gitân in then tagun, framquam gibot fon ðemo aluualten keisure, thaz gibrieuit vvurdi al these umbiuuerft. 2. Thaz giscrib zi êristen uuard gitan in Syriu fon ðemo grauen Cyrine, 3. inti fuorun alle, thaz biiâhin thionost iogiuuelih in sinero burgi. 4. Fuor thô Ioseph fon Galileu fon thero burgi thiu hiez Nazareth in Iudeno lant inti in Dauides burg, thiu uuas ginemnit Bethleem, bithiu uuanta her uuas fon huse inti fon hiuuiske Dauides, 5. thaz her giiahi saman mit Mariun imo gimahaltero gimahhun sô scaffaneru. 6. Thô sie thar uuarun, vvurðun taga gifulte, thaz siu bari, 7. enti gibar ira sun êrist-giboranon inti biuuant inan mit tuochum inti gilegita inan in crippea, bithiu uuanta im ni uuas ander stat in themu gasthuse.
 
2 small texts of North Germanic Old Norse West Old Norse I presume since there are from Iceland :)
 
Hljóðs biðk allar     helgar kinder,          I ask for attention of all  hallowed children,
meiri ok minni   mögu Heimdallar;          the high and the low  Heimdall's children;
vildu at, Valföðr,     vel fyr teljak           you, Valfather,  want that I relate
forn spjöll fira,  þaus fremst of man.       the fates of mankind,   that best I recall.
Ár vas alda     þars Ymir byggði,           It was an ancient time    when Ymir lived,
vasa sandr né sær   né svalar unnir;        there was no land nor sea   nor cool waves,
jörð fansk æva    né upphiminn;             no earth to be found,    nor heaven above;
gap vas Ginnunga, en gras hvergi           it was a formless void,  no grass anywhere
 
Deyr fé,       deyja frændr,        Kine dies,   kinfolk die,
deyr sjalfr hit sama;                 dies just so the soul;
en orðstirr     deyr aldrigi           but glory    never dies
hveims sér góðan getr.              for him who gets good account.
Deyr fé,    deyja frændr,            Kine dies,   kinfolk die,
deyr sjalfr hit sama;                 dies just so the soul;
ek veit einn   at aldri deyr:         I know something   that never dies,
dómr of dauðan hvern.              the judgment on all who are dead.
 
.
 
Even if these are not completly the same they have some themes one can look at .
 
No let's look at a Iranian text Avestan
 

Lesson Text

1 xšmaibyā gə̄uš urvā gərəždā       kahmāi mā θwarōždūm kə̄ mā tašaṯ
ā mā aēšəmō hazas-cā       rəmō āhišāyā dərəš-cā təviš-cā
nōiṯ mōi vāstā xšmaṯ anyō       aθā mōi sąstā vohū vāstryā

2 adā tašā gə̄uš pərəsaṯ       ašəm kaθā tōi gavōi ratuš
hyaṯ hīm dātā xšayantō       hadā vāstrā gaodāyō θwaxšō
kə̄m hōi uštā ahurəm       yə̄ drəgvōdəbīš aēšəməm vādāyōiṯ

3 ahmāi ašā nōiṯ sarəjā       advaēšō gavōi paitī-mravaṯ
avaēšąm nōiṯ vīduyē       yā šavaitē ādrə̄ng ərəšvåŋhō
hātąm hvō aojištō       yahmāi zavə̄ng jimā kərədušā

4 mazdå saxvārə̄ mairištō       yā zī vāvərəzōi pairī-ciθīṯ
daēvāiš-cā mašyāiš-cā       yā-cā varəšaitē aipī-ciθīṯ
hvō vīcirō ahurō       aθā nə̄ aŋhaṯ yaθā hvō vasaṯ

5 aṯ vā ustānāiš ahvā       zastāiš frīnəmnā ahurāi ā
mə̄ urvā gə̄uš-cā azyå       hyaṯ mazdąm dvaidī frasåbyō
nōiṯ ərəžəjyōi frajyāitiš       nōiṯ fšuyentē drəgvasū pairī

 

1   The cow's soul lamented to you, [the gods]: "For whom did you create me?
          Who fashioned me?
    Cruelty, oppression, bloodlust, rage, and violence have fettered me,
    [And] there is no herdsman for me other than you.
          Therefore, you must all show me [the way to] good pastures."
     
2   Then the cow's Fashioner asked Truth: "What [was] your allotment for the cow
    when, ruling [the earth], you all gave her cow-tending nourishment
          together with pasturage?
    Whom do all of you desire as the Lord who would destroy the cruelty [wielded] by the
          Possessor of the Lie?"
     
3   [The one who is] not a slayer of the alliance with Truth
          [and is] free from hatred for the cow would reply to him:
    "[One] is not to know of those [things] by which He drives the lowly to lofty [heights].
    [But] he to whom I shall go, on account of [his] having sent out requests [for aid?],
          [will be] the strongest of beings.
     
4   [Zarathustra:] "The Wise One [is he] remembering best the pacts
          that, indeed, he has made with daevas and men sometime before [now]
    And [those also] that he will make sometime later.
    He is the discerning Lord; it will be for us just as he would wish."
     
5   [Zarathustra: And] so, then, do we two -- my soul and the fertile cow's --
          devote ourselves with zeal, with hands stretched out to the Lord,
    So [that] we may dispose the Wise One to [answer our] inquiries.
    Is there no prospect for the cattle-breeder living justly among the Possessors of the Lie?"
 
 
So acoridng to you Old Saxon should be more similear to old iranian langauges but we can see in this texts that it is not the case and if you would look in phonology,morphology,grammer and historical changes you will see that it is not the case.
 
So Saxon is a west germanic langauge why is that so hard to accept Cyrus?
 
 
 

 
 


Edited by Some - 17-Jan-2009 at 19:19
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2009 at 19:28
Some, read my other posts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Some Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2009 at 19:57
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

Some, read my other posts.
 
I have.
 
My main point was in the first post to show that mass lexical compairiasion is not  linguistical science. And that Saxon in my other message is clearly Germanic or to be more exact West Germanic.
 
But I guess you just don't understand these issues so I think follow Slayers examples and leav the debate.
 
Have a good life.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2009 at 23:16
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

I found an interesting map from 200 AD here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernyakhov

It seems Gothic language could have a strong influence on the Saksin language two centuries before their migration to Germany, of course Iranian Iazyges were in the south of the Germanic lands in this period too.

Yes interesting map, but wrong. First of all, what's about the colours? Germania, Slavia, Scythia? But whatever it is wrong. The location of Germanic tribes is not completely wrong but at 200 AD there was the Wielbark-culture still alive. But they were expanding towards the regions of you Cernjachov-culture. But I can't find it on the map. Second, there are Lugi and Vandals mentioned. Why? They belonged to the Przeworsk-culture, but we can identify tribes of that culture. And the Gepids? What source claime a location in 200 in the region above? Well, I agree widely with the Kiewer culture. But only in the dark violett area. And the light violett area. What's about it? In the wetern region the Goth marched to the Southeast. I can't find this on your map. But the main problem is that at 200 AD no Cernjachov-culture existed. Cernjachov started at the end of 3rd century.
 
Please, could you explain what you mean with Goth influence on Saksin language? You told us that Germanic is a subgroup of Iranian languages. Why Goth must have had an influence on Saksin? Your Iranians came to Germany at about 700/600 BC. So the Goth language was, in your eyes, Iranian, wasn't it? But again what Saksin migration. No scholar tells us about it, no archaeoligical evidence has ever been found. Show me sites in Old Saxony that are of Saksin or Alan or Sarmatian or Scythian or Kimmerian or what the hell ever origin!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2009 at 15:54
Originally posted by Some Some wrote:

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

Some, read my other posts.
 
I have.
 
My main point was in the first post to show that mass lexical compairiasion is not  linguistical science. And that Saxon in my other message is clearly Germanic or to be more exact West Germanic.
 
But I guess you just don't understand these issues so I think follow Slayers examples and leav the debate.
 
Have a good life.
You know yourseleves to be the losers in this debate! I have mentioned several times that we are talking about Indo-European languages here, we know the proto-IE roots of the words, so you can't say those words are similar by coincidence, like the words that you mentioned in those unrelated languages, I asked:
 
Quote Some, Would you please inform me about "ch", "gh" or "sh" sounds in the Germanic languages, please mention some proto-Germanic words with these sounds.
 
For example about the English word Chin, you can read here -> http://www.windictionary.com/english-persian-chin-Default.aspx that the Persian word is Chane (câne)
 
 
chin Look up chin at Dictionary.com
O.E. cin, a general Gmc. word, from PIE base *genw- "chin, jawbone."

I want to know why the proto-IE "g" sound has been changed to "ch" in the Iranian and Germanic languages, do you think all these sound changes occured by chance?

There can be certainly some similar words in the Iranian and Germanic languages which have different origins, like the English verb "understand":
 
 
understand Look up understand at Dictionary.com
O.E. understandan "comprehend, grasp the idea of," probably lit. "stand in the midst of," from under + standan "to stand"

and the Persian verb "endanestan" (prefix en- + danestan "to find out" -> http://sartre2.byu.edu/persian/pvc/pvc.php?verb=daanestan )

But about the words that I mentioned before there are some logical reasons which prove the Germanic words could be related to the Iranian words, for example about the English word Boar:
 
boar Look up boar at Dictionary.com
O.E. bar, from W.Gmc. *bairaz, of unknown origin with no cognates outside W.Gmc. Applied to persons of boar-like character in M.E.

Logically a word cannot be of unknown origin, don't you think so? and there should be reason for it: "Applied to persons of boar-like character", am I wrong?

 
In Persia (Iran) during the Sassanid Empire, boars were respected as fierce and brave creatures, and the adjective "Boraz (Goraz)" (meaning boar) was sometimes added to a person's name to show his bravery and courage. The famous Sassanid spahbod, Shahrbaraz, who conquered Egypt and the Levant, had his name derived Shahr(city) + Baraz(boar like/brave) meaning "Boar of the City".
 
As you read the Middle Persian word "Baraz" also means "bold, brave", what is the proto-Germanic word for "bold"?
 
 
bold Look up bold at Dictionary.com
O.E. beald (W.Saxon), bald (Anglian) "bold, brave," from P.Gmc. *balthaz (cf. O.H.G. bald "bold, swift," in names such as Archibald, Leopold, Theobald; Goth. balþei "boldness;" O.N. ballr "frightful, dangerous"), perhaps from PIE *bhol-to-, suffixed form of *bhel- "to blow, swell" (see bole). O.Fr./Prov. baut, It. baldo "bold, daring, fearless" are Gmc. loan-words.

*balthaz and l->r in the Old Persian, so we have "barthaz" and then "baraz" in the Middle Persian.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2009 at 16:54
Originally posted by beorna beorna wrote:

Yes interesting map, but wrong. First of all, what's about the colours? Germania, Slavia, Scythia? But whatever it is wrong. The location of Germanic tribes is not completely wrong but at 200 AD there was the Wielbark-culture still alive. But they were expanding towards the regions of you Cernjachov-culture. But I can't find it on the map. Second, there are Lugi and Vandals mentioned. Why? They belonged to the Przeworsk-culture, but we can identify tribes of that culture. And the Gepids? What source claime a location in 200 in the region above? Well, I agree widely with the Kiewer culture. But only in the dark violett area. And the light violett area. What's about it? In the wetern region the Goth marched to the Southeast. I can't find this on your map. But the main problem is that at 200 AD no Cernjachov-culture existed. Cernjachov started at the end of 3rd century.
 
Please, could you explain what you mean with Goth influence on Saksin language? You told us that Germanic is a subgroup of Iranian languages. Why Goth must have had an influence on Saksin? Your Iranians came to Germany at about 700/600 BC. So the Goth language was, in your eyes, Iranian, wasn't it? But again what Saksin migration. No scholar tells us about it, no archaeoligical evidence has ever been found. Show me sites in Old Saxony that are of Saksin or Alan or Sarmatian or Scythian or Kimmerian or what the hell ever origin!
I gave a link to webpage where the map is located, I didn't create it myself and never say that is certainly correct. My point was just that there were some migrations between Germanic and Scythian lands in the different periods, it doesn't change the fact that the languages of both of them could be subgroups of Iranian languages but these migrations could make these languages more similar to each other.
There are several archaeoligical evidences in the different regions of Germany which prove a Scythian presence in this country, the problem is just that, like about other ones that I mentioned, you can say all of them came there by trade. (Would you please show your sources about these ancient trades?)
 
These are Scythians:
 
 
 
What is that object in their hands?
 
 
Isn't it the same as this one which has been found in Trichtingen, Germany:
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2009 at 17:27
I just say that Trichtingen is near Stuttgart where the famous Kleinaspergle burial mound has been found there too, you certainly know that building burial mounds was one of the main characteristics of Scythians: http://eeuropeanhistory.suite101.com/article.cfm/scythians___a_mysterious_history
 
The more intersting thing is about "Cannabis/Hemp": http://www.dhushara.com/book/twelve/tw1.htm
 
There is sufficient evidence that hemp was being used as an intoxicant by the Iron Age. Cannabis has been discovered in the grave chamber of the Hochdorf Hallstatt waggon-burial near Stuttgart in Germany (circa 500 BC), and also at Scythian sites on the steppes.
 
 
hemp Look up hemp at Dictionary.com
O.E. hænep, from P.Gmc. *hanapiz (cf. O.S. hanap, O.N. hampr, O.H.G. hanaf, Ger. Hanf), probably a very early Gmc. borrowing of the same Scythian word that became Gk. kannabis (see cannabis).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2009 at 22:53
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

I gave a link to webpage where the map is located, I didn't create it myself and never say that is certainly correct. My point was just that there were some migrations between Germanic and Scythian lands in the different periods, it doesn't change the fact that the languages of both of them could be subgroups of Iranian languages but these migrations could make these languages more similar to each other.
There are several archaeoligical evidences in the different regions of Germany which prove a Scythian presence in this country, the problem is just that, like about other ones that I mentioned, you can say all of them came there by trade. (Would you please show your sources about these ancient trades?)
I saw it is from wikipedia. But wiki isn't always correct.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2009 at 23:07
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

I just say that Trichtingen is near Stuttgart where the famous Kleinaspergle burial mound has been found there too, you certainly know that building burial mounds was one of the main characteristics of Scythians: ........
 
There is sufficient evidence that hemp was being used as an intoxicant by the Iron Age. Cannabis has been discovered in the grave chamber of the Hochdorf Hallstatt waggon-burial near Stuttgart in Germany (circa 500 BC), and also at Scythian sites on the steppes.
 
 Mound burials apppear in Middle and Western Europe at the end of Neolithikum. They developed throughout the centuries from lower burials to real mounds. So to combine it with Scythians is nonsense. Scythians appear in the areas of the Black Sea about 700 BC. That's not Neolithicum, isn't it?
 
In the burials you mentioned above one can find material from Italy, especially from Estruscians. So if I argue like you, Etruscians had conquered Germania at Latene A. So we have many support for trade, of course we have no lists of merchants I am sorry. Do you want to deny trade?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Some Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2009 at 06:39
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

I just say that Trichtingen is near Stuttgart where the famous Kleinaspergle burial mound has been found there too, you certainly know that building burial mounds was one of the main characteristics of Scythians: http://eeuropeanhistory.suite101.com/article.cfm/scythians___a_mysterious_history
 
The more intersting thing is about "Cannabis/Hemp": http://www.dhushara.com/book/twelve/tw1.htm
 
There is sufficient evidence that hemp was being used as an intoxicant by the Iron Age. Cannabis has been discovered in the grave chamber of the Hochdorf Hallstatt waggon-burial near Stuttgart in Germany (circa 500 BC), and also at Scythian sites on the steppes.
 
 
hemp Look up hemp at Dictionary.com
O.E. hænep, from P.Gmc. *hanapiz (cf. O.S. hanap, O.N. hampr, O.H.G. hanaf, Ger. Hanf), probably a very early Gmc. borrowing of the same Scythian word that became Gk. kannabis (see cannabis).
 
Just want to say this because I  want brust your bubble that building Kurgans AKA Tumulus is something many cultures did. IE cultures did especialy how ever the in general burial mounds of cultures of the Corded Ware are diffrent from the other forms of kurgans and Iranian is not part of that.
 
Remember many see the spread of IE speaking people with the in general spread of Kurgans to variaous urheimats to the daughter langauges how ever many other cultures have also built diffrent forms Kurgans as well.
 
All love
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2009 at 13:22

beorna, Would you please mention just a credible book about Scythians? do you believe what "The Cambridge History" says? Do you think all modern historians and archaeologists are wrong about Scyhtian finds in Germany?

The Cambridge History of Iran
By William Bayne Fisher, Ilya Gershevitch, Ehsan Yarshater, R. N. Frye, J. A. Boyle, Peter Jackson, Laurence Lockhart, Peter Avery, Gavin Hambly, Charles Melville

Do you know someone else who knows more than them about the Iranian peoples?

The Cambridge History of Iran, page 192



Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 19-Jan-2009 at 14:36
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2009 at 15:27
Cyruss, that's the way I can discuss with you. That's probably the first source of you I can accept. I am busy now, I answer you tonight. Bye.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2009 at 22:13
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

beorna, Would you please mention just a credible book about Scythians? do you believe what "The Cambridge History" says? Do you think all modern historians and archaeologists are wrong about Scyhtian finds in Germany?

The Cambridge History of Iran
By William Bayne Fisher, Ilya Gershevitch, Ehsan Yarshater, R. N. Frye, J. A. Boyle, Peter Jackson, Laurence Lockhart, Peter Avery, Gavin Hambly, Charles Melville

 I said it today. This is the perhaps first credible and serious sources you brought. If I am right your sources is from 1985? This is really quite modern. Unfortunately the newest research is throughing a different look on the Scythians in Middle Europe.
 
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

Do you know someone else who knows more than them about the Iranian peoples?
I am not very good in Iranian history. I just took care of it at the borders of my interests. So I don't know who's good in Iranian history or not. I believe you they are the bests or some of the best.

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

The Cambridge History of Iran, page 192

  The important Scythian finds in Germany are according to your quoted map Vettersfelde and Kleinrudestedt. I  am sure it is not Kleinruderstedt. I am not sure if we speak about the same site. I do not know about finds in Kleinrudestedt. Sorry, the only burial I know is Leubingen, just near of it. But this is a burial just about 3900 years old. So it is from the Aunjetitz-culture, long before the Scythians. All mound burial in Middle Europe can be explained by burials from the end of Neolithikum. There are even mounds in the Megalth culture.
Well fear I wrote that newest research showed that Vettersfelde is a burial inside a field of a resident and indigenous population. That was partly wrong. Vettersfelde is seen as a sacrificial offering to a  well. The material is Scythian, but it is not a evidence for Scythian settlement.
Further we have arrow-heads. They are thought to an evidence for a Scythian invasion or at least for a Scythian aggression. That is not wrong in any case. The problem is that these special weapon technics are widespread and in a kind of product piracy, made by the indigenous population as well. so all arrow-heads can be explained as non-scythian. But it is possible that at least some or an unknown amout is really use by Scythians.
It is the same with your fortresses. It is correct that they burned down. But not every fire layer is a consequence of an attack. If we find arrow-heads or other weapons in the layer then, as I said above, it is not automatically a Scythian attack, because the arrow-heads were wide-spread.
So we have just Scythian evidence in the Hungaro-Romanian area. From there the Scythian culture influenced the Hallstatt and LaTene-culture.
So at the end there is no evidence for a Scythian invasion like you believe to. Yes, especially those region of the Semnoni or the Saxons, nearly completely the whole Jastorf-culture isn't touched by Scythian objects. So it is a very interesting map but your conclusions aren't correct.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2009 at 12:17

Please make a difference between what you and me believe and what the professional historians and archaeologists who have researched about it for several years say, when they say these are Scythian arrow-heads, it doesn't mean Scythians had an advanced technique at making arrow-heads, but just these arrow-heads have the same characteristics of Scythian ones, not the local ones. In fact they talk about the differences between the weapons, not weapon technics.

Anyway if we even believe that all of these Scythian objects were made by the local people, not the Scythians themselves, and Scythians never invaded these regions, it would just show a Scythian cultural influence on this region which can be the main reason for an important cultural change and the collapse of the Lusatian culture.


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 20-Jan-2009 at 12:21
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2009 at 21:56
I don't know why you speak of my beliefs. I don't speak of belief, I speak of research done by archaelogist and historians.I graduated in history. I am not a bloody rookie or hobby historian. And if I remember correct you said that you are a PhD of Iranian(?) history as well. So we should have a right to participate in these subject. Archaeologists speak of an advanced technic of skythian threewinged arrow-heads. If you look on the map. You see them e.g. in Greece. Here the Greeks used skythian mercenaries. You find skythian arrow-heads untill the Iberian peninsula. They came to this area by trade, because skythian arrow-heads were an advanced technic. The reason why those people didn't use the skythian reflex bow was perhaps because it was to complicated. But again, you find the major amount of Skythian arrow-heads in the Lausitzer-culture. You don't find them, or just afew ones, in the Jastorf, in Harpstedt-Nienburg or in the Nordic Bronze. So in these areas were the Germanic ethos originated you don't have it. So why are the Germans Skythians?
 
There was a cultural influence towards the Lausitzer-culture and even to Hallstatt and LaTene. But cultural change isn't ethnical, even political change. You always spoke of an Skythian invasion and migration. It is possible that Skythians were responsible for the breakdown of the Lausitzer-culture. But you have to see a lot of other proceedings. This is the time of a great change, caused by the use of Iron. It is the time of the creation of the Gesichtsurnenkultur at the southern Baltic Sea coast. the rise of Hallstatt. So Skythian influence in the breakdown is possible and I don't deny it, but to think they are the most responsible people is probably wrong.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2009 at 15:02
What about the genetic evidences?
 
 
Y-DNA

The Y-chromosome side is more consistent with the present incidence. Ancient Norse appeared to belong mostly to Y-DNA haplogroups I, R1a and R1b (S21+). There are nevertheless great disparities between the regions of Scandinavia. Denmark, along with Friesland, northern Germany and the Netherlands, have the highest incidence of hg R1b. Over 40% of Swedes belong to hg I1a, and another 10% to I1c. In Norway, the three haplogroups have about the same share, but with stronger R1b concentration in the South-West and R1a in the North.

It appears that Scandinavia already shared this variety of haplogroups 2000 years ago. The only thing that has changed over time is the increased blending between the original ethnic groups that converged in northern Europe.

Science Daily : New Research Refutes Myth Of Pure Scandinavian Race

Dr David Faux suggested the existence of a genetic connection between Scandinavians and Central Asians (PDF). He argues that the presence of haplogroup Q in Scandinavia might be due to the migration of a Hunnic tribe to Scandinavia during the Great Migrations of the 4th and 5th centuries. The Huns were allied to the Goths, whose homeland was Sweden.

Dr Faux also hypothetizes a Central Asian origin of haplogroup R1a, found nowadays in Scandinavia, Eastern Europe, Central Asia and South Asia. This haplogroup might have been associated with the ancient Scythians, among others.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2009 at 15:31
The things about "Odin Divides his Kingdom" (Scythia Magna and Scythia Minor) and "Odin's day" (Wednesday -> http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=wednesday&searchmode=none O.N. Oðinsdagr) which have been mentioned in the above links are really interesting, we Persians also call a day of the week "Odin" or "Adin", this is really a mysterious Persian word, some say the Persian word relates to Avestan Daena (religion) -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daena There is an interesting discussion about this word here: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1225732 one says: "آدینه is first attested in the Manichaean Parthian texts and is derived from āδēn, equivalent to Middle Persian ēwēn, which also gives New Persian آذین (ornament, decoration)."


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 21-Jan-2009 at 18:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Some Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2009 at 21:25

I decided to give one more go here.

Cyrus genetically Scandinavia is interesting for having both a high frequency of R1a more common in the east and R1b more common in the west. But remember that genetics and linguistics are not the same thing but I will give it a shot here anyway.

But you can see that in more traditional Germanic speaking areas it is more dominantly closer to the western of Europe then to Asia in general not that it matters in a linguistically debate in the end but we see how it is in general . In Scandinavia it is also very complex because it has during time lived various cultures there and one can draw migration from several areas of migration but I don't have time to write about that in detail.

If your interested in IE genetics then I can say that we don't know much about it.. but R1a and R1b are usually what people tend look closer at.. even if it cannot tell us much.

R1a,

Spencer Wells suggests that the origin, distribution and age of the R1a1 haplotype points to an ancient migration, possibly corresponding to the spread by the Kurgan people in their expansion across the Eurasian steppe around 3000 BC. About his old teacher's proposal, Wells (2002) states that "there is nothing to contradict this model, although the genetic patterns do not provide clear support either," and instead argues that the evidence is much stronger for Gimbutas' model:

while we see substantial genetic and archaeological evidence for an Indo-European migration originating in the southern Russian steppes, there is little evidence for a similarly massive Indo-European migration from the Middle East to Europe. One possibility is that, as a much earlier migration (8,000 years old, as opposed to 4,000), the genetic signals carried by Indo-European-speaking farmers may simply have dispersed over the years. There is clearly some genetic evidence for migration from the Middle East, as Cavalli-Sforza and his colleagues showed, but the signal is not strong enough for us to trace the distribution of Neolithic languages throughout the entirety of Indo-European-speaking Europe.

R1a1 is most prevalent in Poland, Russia, and Ukraine, and is also observed in Pakistan, India and central Asia. R1a1 is largely confined east of the Vistula gene barrier[12] and drops considerably to the west: R1a1 measurements read 6.2% to Germans (a 4X drop to Czechs and Slovakians reading 26,7%) and 3.7% to Dutch.[13] The spread of Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup R1a1 has been associated with the spread of the Indo-European languages too. The mutations that characterize haplogroup R1a occurred ~10,000 years bp. Its defining mutation (M17) occurred about 10,000 to 14,000 years ago.

Ornella Semino et al. propose a postglacial spread of the R1a1 gene from the Ukrainian LGM refuge, subsequently magnified by the expansion of the Kurgan culture into Europe and eastward.[14]

Haplogroup R1a1, whose lineage is thought to have originated in the Eurasian Steppes north of the Black and Caspian Seas, is associated with the Kurgan culture,[15] as well as with the postglacial Ahrensburg culture which has been suggested to have spread the

R1b

High concentrations of Mesolithic or late Paleolithic YDNA haplogroups of types R1b (typically well above 35%) and I (up to 25%), are thought to derive ultimately of the robust Eurasiatic Cro Magnoid homo sapiens of the Aurignacian culture, and the subsequent gracile leptodolichomorphous people of the Gravettian culture that entered Europe from the Middle East 20,000 to 25,000 years ago, respectively.[17]

The present-day population of R1b, with extremely high peaks in Western Europe and measured up to the eastern confines of Central Asia, are believed to be the descendants of a refugium in the Iberian peninsula (Portugal and Spain) at the Last Glacial Maximum, where the haplogroup may have achieved genetic homogeneity. As conditions eased with the Allerød Oscillation in about 12,000 BC, descendants of this group migrated and eventually recolonised all of Western Europe, leading to the dominant position of R1b in variant degrees from Iberia to Scandinavia, so evident in haplogroup maps. The most common subclade is R1b1b2a, that has a maximum in Frisia (the Netherlands). It may have originated towards the end of the last ice age, or perhaps more or less 7000 BC, possibly in the northern European mainland[18] and a close match of the present–day distribution of S21 and the territorial pattern of the Eastern Corded Ware cultures and the Single Grave cultures has been observed.[19]

Dupuy and his colleagues proposed the ancestors of Scandinavian men from Haplogroup Hg P*(xR1a) or R1b (Y-DNA) to have brought Ahrensburg "culture" and stressed genetic similarity with Germany.[20]

Other Haplogroups

Small Neolithic additions can be concerned in occurrences of "Anatolian" haplogroups J2, G, F and E3b1a, the latter presenting a clearly North-eastern African element.''

Plus it is more complicated then that. Tomorrow I might if I have time write linguistic message .. might be my last one will see.

All love



Edited by Some - 21-Jan-2009 at 21:37
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