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Forum LockedIs Germanic a subgroup of the Iranian languages?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2009 at 15:26
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

I have given numerous examples in this thread, lets see another one


All of them were refuted, that's a fact you forgot to mention.Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2009 at 15:39

by whom? People who know almost nothing about the Iranian languages, yes?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2009 at 15:39
What's your source for the Avestan word?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2009 at 15:41
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

by whom? People who know almost nothing about the Iranian languages, yes?



By people who compiled dictionaries for instance - they definitely have much greater knowledge of Iranian languages.

And I can ask: By whom were those examples given? By you who know nothing about Germanic languages (apart English), yes?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2009 at 15:42
And I think your examples were in Germanic languages, not Iranian...so it fails.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2009 at 20:28

Slayertplsko, do you want to discuss about all English words which have Germanic origins alphabetically one by one?

According to my Oxford disctionary, the first English word which has Germanic origin is "Acre":

acre Look up acre at Dictionary.com
O.E. æcer "tilled field, open land," from P.Gmc. *akraz "field, pasture" (cf. O.N. akr, O.Fris. ekkr, O.H.G. achar), from PIE *agros "field" (cf. L. ager "field, land," Gk. agros, Skt. ajras "plain, open country").
 
What should be the Iranian word? "agar", "agra", "azra", "ajar", "azar", ... which one?
 
The modern Persian word "akara" means "open land" (akrah in Arabic) which comes from Avestan akarsta-: untilled, unsown -> source: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~iranian/Avesta/a19_lesson16.pdf (page 184)
 
The root of the word could be "*kar" which means "till, sow, plant" in the Iranian languages:
 
 
Root: *karH2-

Meaning: to spread out, scatter (esp. seed), to draw (a furrow), till, mark off; to sow, plant

See also: *kar«-/*xrah-

Avestan: (caus.) LAv. kar- `to spread out'

Kellens, Liste: 15

Avestan paradigm: Caus.: pres. IND. 3sg. LAv. (²)kƒraiieiti, INJ. 3sg. LAv. frakƒraiiat_ ( V 22.20), OPT. 2sg. LAv. frakƒraii،i« ( V 9.10, f.), 3pl. kƒraiiچn ( V 6.2)

Middle Persian: MMP k'r-, BMP k'l- `to till, furrow; sow' (with supplet. past stem ky«- < *kar«-/*xrah-), (nomin.) MMP q'r'g `sower' ( M219 II R,14, M738 II R,1)

Middle Persian paradigm: Pres.: IND. 3sg. MMP q'ryd ( M101 f 1,4(177)), IMPV. 2pl. MMP q'ryd (? M82 I R,23); Pass.: pret. IND. 3sg. MMP ky«t ( M7981 I Ri,4), 3pl. MMP ky«t xhynd ( M1002+M1006+M1017 etc. II Vi,5(489))

Parthian: k'r- `to sow, plant' (supplet. ppp. stem ky«-, v. *kar«-/*xrah-)

Ghilain, Essai: 98

Parthian paradigm: Pres.: IND. 3sg. xk'ryd (| M27 II R,7|, ? | M1603 II V,2|), xq'ryd (| M741 d R,4a|); Partic.: perf. pass. ky«t ( M88 I R,52a, v. foll.), qy«t (v. foll.); Pass.: pres. IND. 3sg. ky«t 'h'd ( M509 II V,6, M818 II V,4), xqy«t 'h'd (| M4450 II R,3|, | M5845 II R,9|, | M5845 II V,14|), pret. IND. 3sg. qy«t ( M332+M724 II V,4(24), M332+M724 II V,12(32), | M332+M724 II R,17(18)|)

Khotanese: kƒr-, OKhot. ker- (caus.) `to plant', (+ *ni«-) LKhot. nas·kƒr- `to drag away', (+ *ham-) Khot. ham·g(g)ƒr- `to draw together'

Emmerick, SGS: 22, 23, 50, 137

Khotanese paradigm: Pres. B (Id): IND. 3pl. OKhot. kƒr–ndi ( Z 24.420); Partic.: perf. pass. kƒd·a- ( P 2956.70-71 KT 3.39, P 2022.24 KT 3.43, etc.), (caus.) LKhot. kai'st„ ( P 2741.117 KT 2.91), LKhot. kaista ( P 2891.19 KT 3.80); Caus.: pres. A/B (Ve) IND. 3pl. OKhot. ker–ndi ( Z 22.125), perf. tr. (suppl.) 3sg. m. OKhot. k„lste ( Z 4.35), OKhot. kilste ( Z 4.61), 2pl. OKhot. k„lstƒnd„ sta ( Suv. K. 30v6 KT 5.108), 3pl. OKhot. kilstƒm·d„ ( Kha 1.170v2 KT 1.255)

Sogdian: BSogd. kyr `to plant, sow', SSogd. k«(-), CSogd. q«(-) `to sow' (see Sims-Williams 1984: 99, s.v. 52R.9-10, fn. 29), (nomin.) CSogd. q«y' (f.) `sowing' ( C2 52V.18)

Sogdian paradigm: Pres.: SUBJ. 2sg. BSogd. kyr' ( Vim. 30), OPT. 3sg. CSogd. q«y ( C2 52R.9); Pret.: tr. IND. 3sg. CSogd. q«t'rt ( C2 54R.26); Partic.: perf. pass. SSogd. k«t `spread' ( AL 3.22), BSogd. k«t'k `sown; seed' ( Vim. 11(N))

Samadi, Verbum: k'ry- `to till; sow, plant'

Chorasmian paradigm: Impf.: IND. 3sg. k'ryd ( 161.8, 374.1)

New West Iranian: NP ki«tan/kƒr- `to plant, sow', Kurd. (Hewr.) kal¯a `to plough'

New East Iranian: Sh. ‰„¯r-t, Rosh. ‰Œr-t, Bart. ‰،r-t, Sariq. ‰or-t, Yazgh. k´ƒr-d `to plough, sow, cultivate', (nomin.) Yagh. ki«ta `field'
 


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 14-Jan-2009 at 20:47
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2009 at 20:44
What is the next word? "affray"
 
affray (n.) Look up affray at Dictionary.com
1303, "state of alarm produced by a sudden disturbance," from O.Fr. effrei "disturbance, fright," from Gallo-Romance *exfridare, lit. "to take out of peace," from L. ex- "out of" + Frank. *frithu "peace," from P.Gmc. *frithuz "consideration, forbearance," from PIE base *pri- "to be friendly, love" (cf. O.C.S. prijati "to aid, help," Skt. prija- "beloved").

What should be the Iranian word? "prija", "pari", "pray", ...?

The Avestan word is "frya":
 
frya
(mN) dear (Kr), beloved, affectionate; a friend, a well-wisher
 


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 14-Jan-2009 at 20:47
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2009 at 21:14

the next one? "ail"

ail Look up ail at Dictionary.com
O.E. eglian "to trouble, plague, afflict," from P.Gmc. *azljaz (cf. O.E. egle "hideous, loathsome, troublesome, painful;" Goth. agls "shameful, disgraceful," agliþa "distress, affliction, hardship," us-agljan "to oppress, afflict"), from PIE *agh-lo-, suffixed form of base *agh- "to be depressed, be afraid."

I think I should ask here, what should be the proto-Germanic word? *azljaz

It is very easy to find the Persian word, just search for "afflict": http://www.windictionary.com/English-persian-afflict-Default.aspx
 
Persian "azar/azordan" probably comes from an Avestan word becuase there was no "z" sound in Persian and no "l" sound in Avestan (l->r).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2009 at 21:45
Alphabetically?? If you insist, suit yourself...

So the first one, acre.
The Iranian root you gave is unrelated, it comes from PIE root *k(ʷ)ēr-. Therefore all its derivatives are unrelated.

Actually, the Proto-Iranian root derived from PIE ag'ro is aźra, as expected:


The above is from the recent project called Этимологический словарь иранских языков (Etymological Dictionary of the Iranian Languages), of which so far three volumes have been published. The dic is ordered by Proto-Iranian roots and should be so far the most detailed Iranian etymology.





Edited by Slayertplsko - 14-Jan-2009 at 21:50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2009 at 21:55

The nex word is "ale", this one itself shows the connections between Germanic and Iranian peoples.

ale Look up ale at Dictionary.com
O.E. ealu "ale, beer," from P.Gmc. *aluth- (cf. O.S. alo, O.N. öl), perhaps from PIE root meaning "bitter" (cf. L. alumen "alum"), or from PIE *alu-t "ale," from base *alu-, a word with connotations of "sorcery, magic, possession, intoxication."

Click Here:

This Avar-Tsez isogloss is rather interesting, because it is certainly an old Iranian (Scythian) loanword, ultimately going back to a Germanic source (Proto-Germanic *aluđ 'beer' < PIE *alut-). The root is still present in Osset. älūton, and was also borrowed (probably from an early Ossetian source) into Georg. ludi (dial. aludi) 'beer' - see Abayev 1,130-131. Regardless of whether this loanword penetrated East Caucasian languages during the period of the Avaro-Ando-Tsezian unity or somewhat later, it must have been borrowed before the change *l > r occurred in Avaro-Andian (unfortunately, Tsez. -r- here is uninformative: it can go back to both PTs *-r- and -l-).

Of course there could be another possibility, about the word "two" I said there are Wakhi bu and Munji lu, it meams "b" could be changed to "l" or vice versa in the Iranian languages.
 
You can find the Persian word for "beer" here: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/beer
 
 
As you see that is "abejo" which simply means "water of barley", the Persian word could be changed to "alejo" and then "alo" in the Old Saxon language.


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 14-Jan-2009 at 21:57
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2009 at 22:04
The last one is ridiculous. We have already discussed dwa-bu-lu, and what you say is a phonetic nonsense (abejo-alejo-alo is nonsenseLOL). Moreover, your own source says that ale is a Germanic word and Scythians got it as a loan word - this was already discussed, why the hell are you using disproved stuff??

Quote it meams "b" could be changed to "l" or vice versa in the Iranian languages


You aren't much of friends with phonetics, are you?? This is nonsense. It doesn't mean that l and b can be interchanged (logics!!!), it means that they evolved from a single phone, and that phone needn't be (in this case isn't) one of them. And this goes only for those three languages that have these sounds developed from [dw], not for all Iranian languages - Cyrus, you lack the very basic understanding of how phonic changes work, I think you should read some Introduction to Phonetics and Phonology for Elementarists and Introduction to Etymology before making such dubious claims.


Edited by Slayertplsko - 14-Jan-2009 at 22:10
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2009 at 22:12
Originally posted by Slayertplsko Slayertplsko wrote:

Alphabetically?? If you insist, suit yourself...

So the first one, acre.
The Iranian root you gave is unrelated, it comes from PIE root *k(ʷ)ēr-. Therefore all its derivatives are unrelated.

Actually, the Proto-Iranian root derived from PIE ag'ro is aźra, as expected:


The above is from the recent project called Этимологический словарь иранских языков (Etymological Dictionary of the Iranian Languages), of which so far three volumes have been published. The dic is ordered by Proto-Iranian roots and should be so far the most detailed Iranian etymology.

What is the Germanic word from your first PIE root? and what is the Avestan word from your second one? I myself said that the supposed word (proto-Iranian) could be "azra" but we see that is wrong.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2009 at 07:35
And "Alemanni"
 
Alemanni Look up Alemanni at Dictionary.com
name of a Suebic tribe or confederation that settled in Alsace and part of Switzerland (and source of the Fr. Allemand "German"), from P.Gmc. *Alamanniz, probably meaning "all-man"

We had discussed about it in Armenians, descendants of Saksons thread, we call Armenians "Armani" and you all know that "Armenian" comes from the Persian name of this people and they have never called themselves by this name. We also call Germans "Almani". The words can simply mean "Aryan man", the first part "Ar" could be from "Aryan" and "Al" from "Alan".

 
The various forms of AlanGreek: Αλανοί, Αλαννοί; Chinese: 阿蘭聊 Alanliao (Pinyin) in the 2nd century [4], 阿蘭 Alan (Pinyin) in the 3rd century [5] — and Iron (a self-designation of the Alans' modern Ossetian descendants,) indicating early tribal self-designation) are Iranian dialectical forms of Aryan[6][7]. These and other variants of Aryan (such as Iran), were common self-designations of the Indo-Iranians, the common ancestors of the Indo-Aryans and Iranian peoples to whom the Alans belonged.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2009 at 07:55

beorna, it is good that you look at the map of the migration of Alans in 4th century AD from the region which was certainly known as "Saksin" to the western Germany and other parts of Europe:

Saksin/Saqsin was changed to Sarai (capital city of the Golden Horde) in just 13th century:
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarai_(city) : Mongol ruler Batu Khan is credited with building the city in the mid-1240s on the site of Saqsin
 
 
Would you please believe the historical facts?
 
If you are interested to know more about Saksins who were also known as Saxi, please read this book: "The Mongol Mission"
 
Of course I hope you also read the footnotes, when you read it!
 
"Now as the Friars traversed Comania they had on their right the land of the Saxi, whom we believe to be Goths and who are Christians: next the Alans who are Christians and then the Guzari [Khazars] who are likewise Christian. In their country is situated Ornas, 4 a rich city which the Tartars captured by flooding it with water. After, the Circassians, and they are Christians. And finally the Georgians, also Christians. "
 
1 According to Benedict the Pole (infra, p. 80), the Saxi were the Goths who still survived in the Crimea at this period, but the list of peoples given in The Secret History of the Mongols (section 262) suggests that they were the Chechen of the Caucasus (Sas or Sasoun).


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 15-Jan-2009 at 08:22
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2009 at 08:09
Nobody denies the existence of that city, but it has nothing to do with your theory. But what is your source for the claim that the whole area in yellow was called Saqsin?? And your source that Saqsin relates to Saka?? Also, Sarai apparently has nothing to do with it, since it is about 600km far away from Saqsin!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2009 at 08:11
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

What is the Germanic word from your first PIE root? and what is the Avestan word from your second one? I myself said that the supposed word (proto-Iranian) could be "azra" but we see that is wrong.


As I expected. I gave you a source, but you denied. What's interesting is, that you gave me nothing. It seems you believe only those sources that support you. The root simply is aźra, deal with it. If you want other information, go find out yourself, you have the burden of proof, and you have also some PhD, don't you??Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2009 at 08:18
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

We had discussed about it in Armenians, descendants of Saksons thread, we call Armenians "Armani" and you all know that "Armenian" comes from the Persian name of this people and they have never called themselves by this name. We also call Germans "Almani". The words can simply mean "Aryan man", the first part "Ar" could be from "Aryan" and "Al" from "Alan".


What's your source for that?? You don't believe in sources much, do you??
Allamanni means all men, even if Armani meant 'Aryan man', it is thus unrelated. So what does 'man' mean in Persian?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenia_(name)#cite_note-9


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2009 at 08:26
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

What is the next word? "affray"
 
affray (n.) Look up affray at Dictionary.com
1303, "state of alarm produced by a sudden disturbance," from O.Fr. effrei "disturbance, fright," from Gallo-Romance *exfridare, lit. "to take out of peace," from L. ex- "out of" + Frank. *frithu "peace," from P.Gmc. *frithuz "consideration, forbearance," from PIE base *pri- "to be friendly, love" (cf. O.C.S. prijati "to aid, help," Skt. prija- "beloved").

What should be the Iranian word? "prija", "pari", "pray", ...?

The Avestan word is "frya":
 
frya
(mN) dear (Kr), beloved, affectionate; a friend, a well-wisher
 


Avestan is not synonymous with Iranian, don't forget. Avestan (p) shifted to (f) before consonants, so it's not a surprice.

This can be seen on the PIE root *prek'-, *perk'-:
Avestan: rǝsaiti `fragt, begehrt', ptc. paršta-; frašna- m. `Befragung, Frage'
Other Iranian: OPers aparsan `ich frug'
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2009 at 08:56
First of all and again, the map doesn't show the Alan migration but combines those of the Alans with those of the Vandals. And the Alans didn't settle in Western Germany as you can see on the map.
And to your Alamanni-Aryamanni. I think we spoke about them too. But again as well. The Alamanni are no nation. Their name Ala-manni is difficult to translate, probably it means just "men" or "the men".They are a mixture of several tribes and groups, mostly of Elbgerman origin. Archaeological facts show that they came from different parts around the Elbe river and even from Bohemia. They are mentioned first in 289, but first groups of Elbgermans arrived in SW-Germany already in 213. But there were probably other groups involved too. So we have the Chattuori among the Alamanni, which has something to do with the Chatti.
There is no connection between the people that were called Alamanni and yours.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2009 at 10:09
Do you know yourself what you want to prove? The map shows a path of migration from the northwest of the Caspea sea to the western part of modern Germany and the northeast of France, do you want to say they were the Vandals and not the Alans?!! Weren't Vandals a Germanic people? When did they come to Caucasus?!
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