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Forum LockedIs Germanic a subgroup of the Iranian languages?
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King John View Drop Down
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Points: 1368 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2008 at 18:58
Cyrus, I believe that the post Slayerplsko is referring to is this post posted on or about June 10 and can be found on page 8 of the Learning a Scandinavian language thread:
Quote Ale, form Old English Alo, Old Saxon/Scythian Alu (Beer):

http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=/data/cauc/caucet&text_number=1450&root=config

It is certainly an old Iranian (Scythian) loanword, ultimately going back to a Germanic source (Proto-Germanic *aluđ 'beer' < PIE *alut-). The root is still present in Osset. älūton, and was also borrowed (probably from an early Ossetian source) into Georg. ludi (dial. aludi) 'beer' - ...
If you actually read what the source says you will find that it says nothing about Saxon. What the source actually says is:
Quote This Avar-Tsez isogloss is rather interesting, because it is certainly an old Iranian (Scythian) loanword, ultimately going back to a Germanic source (Proto-Germanic *aluđ 'beer' < PIE *alut-). The root is still present in Osset. älūton, and was also borrowed (probably from an early Ossetian source) into Georg. ludi (dial. aludi) 'beer' - see Abayev 1,130-131. Regardless of whether this loanword penetrated East Caucasian languages during the period of the Avaro-Ando-Tsezian unity or somewhat later, it must have been borrowed before the change *l > r occurred in Avaro-Andian (unfortunately, Tsez. -r- here is uninformative: it can go back to both PTs *-r- and -l-).
It is clear that you did not read this page very carefully or that you just hoped nobody else would read the site. It is clear when one places your quote in context that the word is not lent to Germanic languages but rather lent from Germanic through Old Iranian. This would suggest that Iranian is a Germanic subgroup and not the other way around. Also notice that Saxon is not mentioned only Scythian. There is no evidence that Scythian and Saxon are the same so quit with the Saxon/Scythian rubbish. This rubbish has already been disproved. You are the only one who makes such a incorrect misguided connection.


Edited by King John - 28-Nov-2008 at 15:17
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Exactly this one.
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Nothing will be changed if you say Iranian is a subgroup of the Germanic languages, the fact is that they were the same till about 500 BC.

Etymology of "Hot": http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=Hot&searchmode=none

O.E. hat "hot, opposite of cold," also "fervent, fierce," from P.Gmc. *haitoz (cf. O.Fris. het, O.N. heitr, Du. heet, Ger. heiß "hot," Goth. heito "heat of a fever"), from PIE base *qai- (cf. Lith. kaistu "to grow hot"),

But why "Hot" means "Cold" in Avestan language?

Letin Gelu (*g→k) English: cold, Dutch: koud, German: kalt, ... in Germanic languages (*k→h & *d→t) Avestan: Hot

Another word is:
 
Lithuanian: gyvas (*gy→kw/ku) English: quick (*k→h) Avestan: Hurva


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 13-Jun-2008 at 08:36
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Quote Nothing will be changed if you say Iranian is a subgroup of the Germanic languages, the fact is that they were the same till about 500 BC.


True, but the same applies to you claiming the contrary. Anyway, we were only joking.

Quote Etymology of "Hot": http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=Hot&searchmode=none

O.E. hat "hot, opposite of cold," also "fervent, fierce," from P.Gmc. *haitoz (cf. O.Fris. het, O.N. heitr, Du. heet, Ger. heiß "hot," Goth. heito "heat of a fever"), from PIE base *qai- (cf. Lith. kaistu "to grow hot")


Do you see any Iranian language there??

Quote
But why "Hot" means "Cold" in Avestan language?

Letin Gelu (*g→k) English: cold, Dutch: koud, German: kalt, ... in Germanic languages (*k→h & *d→t) Avestan: Hot



This is especially interesting. If I analyse it by your logics then:

(it doesn't come from Latin, but I think it wasn't your point...just to be sure)

cold, koud, kalt...hot

PGmc kaldaz (g→k)...English cold, Dutch koud....then in the latter half of 1st millennium, Grimm's law gets into action again, but only in High German (d→t)...so 'kalt'

k→h shift is actually k→x→h shift and took longer time to develop in the first shift (xangistas→hengest).
The fact that Avestan has 'hot' (source?? can't find it) would mean it underwent the High German shift and then took even longer shift of k→h...so it would mean that Avestan's time would be about 1000AD...and that's illogical.

This would again lead us to what we already jokingly claimed...(Iranian is a subgroup of Germanic).

So yes, 'hot' in Avestan is interesting, but has nothing to do with Germanic. They're two different branches and none is subgroup of the other.



Edited by Slayertplsko - 13-Jun-2008 at 16:28
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Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

Lithuanian: gyvas (*gy→kw/ku) English: quick (*k→h) Avestan: Hurva


Don't edit your post for a new word to discuss, create a new one please. It's overlookable.Smile

The gy→kw is not really correct, it's gw→kw. And again it would mean that Avestan has developed it further, and thus comes after Germanic as a subgroup of it. From PGmc kwikwaz however, I have no idea how you could get hurVa. Maybe you could get it kw→hw and then hw→w and then w→v...but it would take a looooong time...and still, it would be huRva. And there's the dead end.
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What does hurva mean anyway??
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Avestan Dictionary: http://www.avesta.org/avdict/avdict.htm ,"a" before a vowel is spelled "h", so aota=hota & aurvant=hurvant
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Thank you.

I see that 'hurva' means swift, but this is the meaning found in English (almost the same meaning), not in other languages and it's not the original meaning (lively, living).
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Anyway, as I'm looking into pronunciation:

ao - as out
h' - as h, possibly stronger

It doesn't say A is spelled 'h', does it??
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Well, word play is fun...I like it. But so that we don't get bored, let's compare the phonology, and start with consonants:

AVESTAN:

nasals: m, n, ɲ, ŋ, ŋʷ
plosives: p/b, t/d, tʃ/dʒ, k/g
fricatives: ɸ/β, f, θ/δ, s/z, ʃ/ʒ, x/ɣ, xʷ, h
approximants: j, w
trill: r
lateral: l

GERMANIC:

nasals: m, n, ŋ
plosives: p/b, t/d, k/g, kʷ (gʷ in early stages)
fricatives: f, θ/δ, s/z, ʃ, x, h, hʷ (xʷ in early stages)
approximants: j, w
trill: r
lateral: l

Now, you can notice considerable differences in each group.
nasals: Gmc has only three, while Avestan has a labialised ŋ and a palatal nasal found in many other language groups (extensively Slavic and Italic), but not in Gmc.
plosives: Gmc again lacks a few:  tʃ/dʒ (found in Slavic, Baltic and Italic), but has kʷ
fricatives: Gmc again lacks bilabial ɸ/β, voiced velar ɣ, voiced palatal ʒ (again in Slavic, Baltic and Italic)



Edited by Slayertplsko - 17-Jun-2008 at 13:20
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Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

You are wrong, Styrbiorn knows that I had posted it some months ago too, this is originally a Saxon/Scythian word which can be found in both Iranian and Germanic, as a subgroup of Iranian languages.


Could you send me a link to the thread please??
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Originally posted by Slayertplsko Slayertplsko wrote:

Well, word play is fun...I like it. But so that we don't get bored, let's compare the phonology, and start with consonants:

AVESTAN:

nasals: m, n, ɲ, ŋ, ŋʷ
plosives: p/b, t/d, tʃ/dʒ, k/g
fricatives: ɸ/β, f, θ/δ, s/z, ʃ/ʒ, x/ɣ, xʷ, h
approximants: j, w
trill: r
lateral: l

GERMANIC:

nasals: m, n, ŋ
plosives: p/b, t/d, k/g, kʷ (gʷ in early stages)
fricatives: f, θ/δ, s/z, ʃ, x, h, hʷ (xʷ in early stages)
approximants: j, w
trill: r
lateral: l

Now, you can notice considerable differences in each group.
nasals: Gmc has only three, while Avestan has a labiovelar ŋ and a palatal nasal found in many other language groups (extensively Slavic and Italic), but not in Gmc.
plosives: Gmc again lacks a few:  tʃ/dʒ (found in Slavic, Baltic and Italic), but has kʷ
fricatives: Gmc again lacks bilabial ɸ/β, voiced velar ɣ, voiced palatal ʒ (again in Slavic, Baltic and Italic)

 
It obviousely shows that the Germanic languages have come apart from the Iranian languages, not vice versa. Don't you think so?
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Originally posted by Slayertplsko Slayertplsko wrote:

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

You are wrong, Styrbiorn knows that I had posted it some months ago too, this is originally a Saxon/Scythian word which can be found in both Iranian and Germanic, as a subgroup of Iranian languages.


Could you send me a link to the thread please??
 
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No it doesn't show either of this (Grimm's law backs it up). By your logics, Iranian would come from Vietnamese, Chinese or Zulu.
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Thanks. So it's exactly the same link and it says it is originally a Germanic word, which Scythians borrowed and later lent to North Caucasians. So I wasn't wrong. It was already explained to you. You really have to read your sources carefully, I think this is the only problem about it - you don't seem to have any kind of difficulty with English, so just read carefully.

Just to be sure:
It's a North-Caucasian etymological dictionary...so it says:

This Avar-Tsez isogloss (the North-Caucasian word) is rather interesting, because it is certainly an old Iranian (Scythian) loanword, ultimately going back to a Germanic source (Proto-Germanic *aluđ 'beer' < PIE *alut-).

So the North Caucasian word is a Scythian loan word, and Scythians borrowed it from Germanic. It's clear it is not of Iranian origin, but of Germanic origin.


Edited by Slayertplsko - 13-Jun-2008 at 18:23
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Grimm's law doesn't mention bilabial fricatives, voiced palatal fricative, voiced velar fricative, voiced palatal nasal and others. This means they would have to be present in Germanic had it been a subgroup of Iranian. This fact pretty much disproves your theory.
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Originally posted by Slayertplsko Slayertplsko wrote:

Thanks. So it's exactly the same link and it says it is originally a Germanic word, which Scythians borrowed and later lent to North Caucasians. So I wasn't wrong. It was already explained to you. You really have to read your sources carefully, I think this is the only problem about it - you don't seem to have any kind of difficulty with English, so just read carefully.

Just to be sure:
It's a North-Caucasian etymological dictionary...so it says:

This Avar-Tsez isogloss (the North-Caucasian word) is rather interesting, because it is certainly an old Iranian (Scythian) loanword, ultimately going back to a Germanic source (Proto-Germanic *aluđ 'beer' < PIE *alut-).

So the North Caucasian word is a Scythian loan word, and Scythians borrowed it from Germanic. It's clear it is not of Iranian origin, but of Germanic origin.
Where did I say it is of Iranian origin? I had read it carefully, it was just important for me that Scythians used the same Old Saxon word.
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Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

this is originally a Saxon/Scythian word


Here.Wink
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Originally posted by Slayertplsko Slayertplsko wrote:

Grimm's law doesn't mention bilabial fricatives, voiced palatal fricative, voiced velar fricative, voiced palatal nasal and others. This means they would have to be present in Germanic had it been a subgroup of Iranian. This fact pretty much disproves your theory.
It seems I know very little about Iranian languages! What is your source about bilabial fricatives and other ones in the Avestan language?
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http://www.avesta.org/avdict/pronun.htm
 

CONSONANTS

c
as church
h'
as h, possibly stronger
ñ
as n
ng
as sing
ngh
ng-h
sh
as show, e.g. zarathushtra
th
as thing, e.g. zarathushtra
dh
as that (voiced th)
v
as Dutch water (a bilabial semivowel similar to Engl. v but not a fricative)
x
as German ach or Scotch loch (often transcribed kh), e.g. xshathra
hv
x (as above) with v immediately following e.g. hvarena
kh
voiced x (often transcribed gh)
zh
as azure (or French je)

All others are pronounced as in English.

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