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Forum LockedIs Germanic a subgroup of the Iranian languages?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2008 at 19:53
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

What about Yima? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yima
It is very obvious that we spell our "Yima" as "Jima" too.

Exactly, but "Ymir" could never be spelled "Jmir", it's as wrong as "Kmir", "Lmir" or "Bmir". The Scandinavian 'y'  is a vowel, the letter is used differently than how all other use it (it's rather similar to the German ü).
Do you just spell our "Yima" as "Jima"? LOL

Actually he's usually spelled "Jam". "Jima" is a direct transcription to the Swedish alphabet. We usually do keep foreign spellings nowadays though, even though it's not compatible with Swedish pronounciation. However 99.9% of the population have never heard of him and you'll only find the name in books about Zoroastrianism so it's hard to tell how he'd be spelled.

If you want a cousing to Yima you should rather look east (look up Yama).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2008 at 20:23
As I said in the first page, I believe these sound changes have been firstly made in the Iranian languages, it is obvious for me why "July" is pronounced "Yuli" (Yuli) or "Job" as "Youb" (Jobb) in Swedish, because the fact is that "J" sound could be changed to "Y" sound in the Iranian languages, this is a good sample:
 
 
joft "pair, couple," Lori, Laki jeft, Qâyeni jof, Tabari jeft, Mid.Pers. yuxt "pair, couple," Av. yuxta- "a team of horses," from yaog- "to yoke, harness, put to; to join, unite," infinitive yuxta, Mid.Pers. jug, ayoxtan "to join, yoke," Mod.Pers. yuq "yoke," cf. Skt. yugam "yoke," Gk. zygon "yoke," zeugnyanai "to join, unite," L. jugare "to join," from jugum "yoke," P.Gmc. *yukam, E. yoke; PIE *yeug- "to join."
 
 
yoke (n.) Look%20up%20yoke%20at%20Dictionary.com
O.E. geoc "yoke," earlier geoht "pair of draft animals," from P.Gmc. *yukam (cf. O.S. juk, O.N. ok, Dan. aag, M.Du. joc, Du. juk, O.H.G. joh, Ger. joch, Goth. juk "yoke"), from PIE *jugom "joining" (see jugular). Figurative sense of "heavy burden, oppression, servitude" was in O.E. The verb is from O.E. geocian.


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 23-Jun-2008 at 20:27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2008 at 20:31
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

As I said in the first page, I believe these sound changes have been firstly made in the Iranian languages, it is obvious for me why "July" is pronounced "Yuli" (Yuli) or "Job" as "Youb" (Jobb) in Swedish, because the fact is that "J" sound could be changed to "Y" sound in the Iranian languages, this is a good sample:

You're missing the obvious: July and job are late loan words in Swedish: the sounds have never changed since they were borrowed. "Juli" and "jobb" are just the Swedish spelling of roughly the same sounds. No sound changes there. The Swedish "y" (both of them, actually, since "y" represents two vowels in Swedish)doesn't exist in neither English nor Iranian (neither do the Swedish "u" for that matter) .


Edited by Styrbiorn - 23-Jun-2008 at 20:35
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2008 at 20:32
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

As I said in the first page, I believe these sound changes have been firstly made in the Iranian languages, it is obvious for me why "July" is pronounced "Yuli" (Yuli) or "Job" as "Youb" (Jobb) in Swedish, because the fact is that "J" sound could be changed to "Y" sound in the Iranian languages, this is a good sample:


LOOOOL good oneLOL
July is pronounced so because THE ORIGINAL LATIN PRONUNCIATION is the velar approximant. And the Germanic languages didn't have that affricative  - most of them don't have to THIS DAY.










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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2008 at 20:51
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

 
yoke (n.) Look%20up%20yoke%20at%20Dictionary.com
O.E. geoc "yoke," earlier geoht "pair of draft animals," from P.Gmc. *yukam (cf. O.S. juk, O.N. ok, Dan. aag, M.Du. joc, Du. juk, O.H.G. joh, Ger. joch, Goth. juk "yoke"), from PIE *jugom "joining" (see jugular). Figurative sense of "heavy burden, oppression, servitude" was in O.E. The verb is from O.E. geocian.


I don't know at all how this would support you. About 'yukam', that's probably a mistake, here's another one. (anyway, there was nothing like y-j shift)

juka-, *jukam
, germ., st. N. (a): nhd. Joch; ne. yoke

ok...av germ. juka-

juk....pgm. juka-

Sources: Koebler (you have the link), Svensk etymologisk ordbok, etymologie.nl....all are on the web
Koebler's dictionary doesn't even include PGmc words beginning with 'y'.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2008 at 20:57
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

joft "pair, couple," Lori, Laki jeft, Qâyeni jof, Tabari jeft, Mid.Pers. yuxt "pair, couple," Av. yuxta- "a team of horses," from yaog- "to yoke, harness, put to; to join, unite," infinitive yuxta, Mid.Pers. jug, ayoxtan "to join, yoke," Mod.Pers. yuq "yoke," cf. Skt. yugam "yoke," Gk. zygon "yoke," zeugnyanai "to join, unite," L. jugare "to join," from jugum "yoke," P.Gmc. *yukam, E. yoke; PIE *yeug- "to join."


Wait a minute!! First in Iranian yeah?? Firstly, there was no y-j shift in Gmc, what 'j' stands for in Gmc has nothing to do with JIM, but YAA. And secondly, Middle Persian yuxt, Avestan yuxta...THIS IS TO BE EARLIER?! Earlier than English maybe, but as you know, English has this pronunciation because of French.

And what do they say about joft??  جفت

JIM letter....interesting!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2008 at 21:18
AFAIK the JIM sound can be found only in English and Faroese today. Faroese writes it as 'gj', English as 'j' or before front vowels also 'g'. In the other Germanic languages, 'j' is pronounced as 'y' in 'year'.

Old Norse didn't have it, it's a Faroese addition, and 'j' in OE was pronounced just like in Swedish today.

Keep this in mind so that you don't propose such a nonsense again.


Edited by Slayertplsko - 23-Jun-2008 at 21:18
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Odin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2008 at 22:13
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

What is your explanation about this one:

Iranian Yima
Germanic Ymir
Roman Remus
Indian Rama


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_cognate
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Odin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2008 at 22:27
It is grammatically impossible to derive Germanic from Indo-Iranian because Germanic languages retain the Indo-European Ablaut (called the strong verb in Germanic languages, sing/sang/sung, fly/flew/flown, ring/rang/rung, etc.) in a more pristine state then any other IE branch except Greek. In Indo-Iranian languages the Ablaut was drastically transformed as a result of vowel mergers. This FACT of Indo-European lingustics over-rides any of your unjustified cognate claims, Cyrus. You do not understand the historical lingustics of the Indo-European languages, you do not understand the Germanic languages and you certainly do not understand the comparative method. Admit it Cyrus, YOU LOSE!
"Of the twenty-two civilizations that have appeared in history, nineteen of them collapsed when they reached the moral state the United States is in now."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 04:47
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

What is your explanation about this one:

Iranian Yima
Germanic Ymir
Roman Remus
Indian Rama
Thats a better one. AFAIK, Indian(Sanskrit)  he is Yama not Rama. You would have a easier time finding comparisons (via sanskrit) in Tibet than DenmarkWink. Though we would be looking at PIE not Iranic for some kind of explanation of this Yama/Yima. The concept is broadly comparable but the difference via time-distance make direct comparison problematic and speculative. If it was sourced via a iranic root then the comparisons would be much clearer.

Odin its not about 'winning', just debating and stress testing concepts/opinions/assumptions.




Edited by Leonidas - 24-Jun-2008 at 04:51
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 05:47
Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

As I said in the first page, I believe these sound changes have been firstly made in the Iranian languages, it is obvious for me why "July" is pronounced "Yuli" (Yuli) or "Job" as "Youb" (Jobb) in Swedish, because the fact is that "J" sound could be changed to "Y" sound in the Iranian languages, this is a good sample:

You're missing the obvious: July and job are late loan words in Swedish: the sounds have never changed since they were borrowed. "Juli" and "jobb" are just the Swedish spelling of roughly the same sounds. No sound changes there. The Swedish "y" (both of them, actually, since "y" represents two vowels in Swedish)doesn't exist in neither English nor Iranian (neither do the Swedish "u" for that matter) .
I think Avestan and Old Persian "Y" sound could be very similar to Swedish "J" sound, for example you know "Jasmine" has been borrowed from Persian:
 
 
jasmine Look%20up%20jasmine%20at%20Dictionary.com
1578, from Fr. jasmin, from M.Fr. jessemin, from Arabic yas(a)min, from Pers. yasmin (cf. Gk. iasme, iasmelaion, name of a Pers. perfume). The plant first was grown in Eng. 16c.
 
We see it can be pronounced as "Jasmin" in Persian too. Also for "young" we have both "Javan" (Avestan "Yuvan") and "Yuban" in Persian.
 
 
young (adj.) Look%20up%20young%20at%20Dictionary.com
O.E. geong "youthful, young," from P.Gmc. *jungas (cf. O.S., O.Fris. jung, O.N. ungr, M.Du. jonc, Du. jong, O.H.G., Ger. jung, Goth. juggs), from PIE *juwngkos, from PIE base *yeu- "vital force, youthful vigor" (cf. Skt. yuva "young," L. juvenis "young," Lith. jaunas, O.C.S. junu, Rus. junyj "young," O.Ir. oac, Welsh ieuanc "young").
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 07:44
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

As I said in the first page, I believe these sound changes have been firstly made in the Iranian languages, it is obvious for me why "July" is pronounced "Yuli" (Yuli) or "Job" as "Youb" (Jobb) in Swedish, because the fact is that "J" sound could be changed to "Y" sound in the Iranian languages, this is a good sample:

You're missing the obvious: July and job are late loan words in Swedish: the sounds have never changed since they were borrowed. "Juli" and "jobb" are just the Swedish spelling of roughly the same sounds. No sound changes there. The Swedish "y" (both of them, actually, since "y" represents two vowels in Swedish)doesn't exist in neither English nor Iranian (neither do the Swedish "u" for that matter) .
I think Avestan and Old Persian "Y" sound could be very similar to Swedish "J" sound, for example you know "Jasmine" has been borrowed from Persian:
 

Definitly, but the Swedish Y sound doesn't exist in Persian (or in English).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 08:37
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

young (adj.) Look%20up%20young%20at%20Dictionary.com
O.E. geong "youthful, young," from P.Gmc. *jungas (cf. O.S., O.Fris. jung, O.N. ungr, M.Du. jonc, Du. jong, O.H.G., Ger. jung, Goth. juggs), from PIE *juwngkos, from PIE base *yeu- "vital force, youthful vigor" (cf. Skt. yuva "young," L. juvenis "young," Lith. jaunas, O.C.S. junu, Rus. junyj "young," O.Ir. oac, Welsh ieuanc "young").


How exactly do you find this relevant Cyrus?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 11:56
Originally posted by Odin Odin wrote:

It is grammatically impossible to derive Germanic from Indo-Iranian because Germanic languages retain the Indo-European Ablaut (called the strong verb in Germanic languages, sing/sang/sung, fly/flew/flown, ring/rang/rung, etc.) in a more pristine state then any other IE branch except Greek. In Indo-Iranian languages the Ablaut was drastically transformed as a result of vowel mergers. This FACT of Indo-European lingustics over-rides any of your unjustified cognate claims, Cyrus. You do not understand the historical lingustics of the Indo-European languages, you do not understand the Germanic languages and you certainly do not understand the comparative method. Admit it Cyrus, YOU LOSE!
 
Would you please talk about something that you know a little about it? Why do you connect Indian to just Iranian? Why not Indo-Germanic or Greco-Indian, ...? If you talk about Iranian languages then please read it: http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/eieol/aveol-7-X.html (In Persian vowel gradation, or ablaut, occurs in three degrees of length: strong, middle, and weak.)
 
Sing -> Modern Persian Sara 
Sang -> Modern Persian Sora/Sorud
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 12:35

English -> Modern Persian

Give -> De/Di
Gave -> Da/Dad

Bear -> Bar
Bore -> Bor/Bord

Go -> Ro
Went -> Rav/Raft

See -> Seh/Sih
Saw -> Sahi/Sahid

Say -> Gu
Said -> Gov/Goft

Die -> Mir
Died -> Mor/Mord

am/is/are -> Bovam(Biam/Basham)/Bovad(Biad/Bash)/Bovand(Biand/Bashand)
was/were -> Buudam/Buud/Buudand

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 13:24
Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

As I said in the first page, I believe these sound changes have been firstly made in the Iranian languages, it is obvious for me why "July" is pronounced "Yuli" (Yuli) or "Job" as "Youb" (Jobb) in Swedish, because the fact is that "J" sound could be changed to "Y" sound in the Iranian languages, this is a good sample:

You're missing the obvious: July and job are late loan words in Swedish: the sounds have never changed since they were borrowed. "Juli" and "jobb" are just the Swedish spelling of roughly the same sounds. No sound changes there. The Swedish "y" (both of them, actually, since "y" represents two vowels in Swedish)doesn't exist in neither English nor Iranian (neither do the Swedish "u" for that matter) .
I think Avestan and Old Persian "Y" sound could be very similar to Swedish "J" sound, for example you know "Jasmine" has been borrowed from Persian:
 

Definitly, but the Swedish Y sound doesn't exist in Persian (or in English).
What about Avestan? As you read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avestan_alphabet 
Avestan alphabet has 37 consonants and 16 vowels.
You said Swedish Y sound is similar to German Ü, so Avestan has also this sound.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 13:38
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

What about Avestan? As you read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avestan_alphabet 
Avestan alphabet has 37 consonants and 16 vowels.
You said Swedish Y sound is similar to German Ü, so Avestan has also this sound.

You mix letters and sounds. The Avestan ü is according to your page a close back vowel, whereas the Swedish y is close front.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Odin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 13:39
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

Originally posted by Odin Odin wrote:

It is grammatically impossible to derive Germanic from Indo-Iranian because Germanic languages retain the Indo-European Ablaut (called the strong verb in Germanic languages, sing/sang/sung, fly/flew/flown, ring/rang/rung, etc.) in a more pristine state then any other IE branch except Greek. In Indo-Iranian languages the Ablaut was drastically transformed as a result of vowel mergers. This FACT of Indo-European lingustics over-rides any of your unjustified cognate claims, Cyrus. You do not understand the historical lingustics of the Indo-European languages, you do not understand the Germanic languages and you certainly do not understand the comparative method. Admit it Cyrus, YOU LOSE!
 
Would you please talk about something that you know a little about it? Why do you connect Indian to just Iranian? Why not Indo-Germanic or Greco-Indian, ...? If you talk about Iranian languages then please read it: http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/eieol/aveol-7-X.html (In Persian vowel gradation, or ablaut, occurs in three degrees of length: strong, middle, and weak.)
 
Sing -> Modern Persian Sara 
Sang -> Modern Persian Sora/Sorud
 


I never said the Indo-Iranian didn't have the ablaut, I said it was vastly transformed as a result of the PIE vowels E, O, and A merging into A.

From Wiki:

Quote The main phonological change separating Proto-Indo-Iranian from Proto-Indo-European is the collapse of the ablauting vowels *e, *o, *a into a single vowel, Proto-Indo-Iranian *a (but see Brugmann's law). Grassmann's law, Bartholomae's law, and the Ruki sound law were also complete in Proto-Indo-Iranian.


Indo-Iranian can be further connected to Greek and Armenian into a Graeco-Aryan or "southern" IE grouping that has the past tense augment among other features.

Edited by Odin - 24-Jun-2008 at 13:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Odin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 14:03
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

English -> Modern Persian

Give -> De/Di
Gave -> Da/Dad

Bear -> Bar
Bore -> Bor/Bord

Go -> Ro
Went -> Rav/Raft

See -> Seh/Sih
Saw -> Sahi/Sahid

Say -> Gu
Said -> Gov/Goft

Die -> Mir
Died -> Mor/Mord

am/is/are -> Bovam(Biam/Basham)/Bovad(Biad/Bash)/Bovand(Biand/Bashand)
was/were -> Buudam/Buud/Buudand



BIG PROBLEM, English and Farsi are both extremely changed languages. Both lost most of the old Indo-European grammatical suffixes as well as grammatical gender. Here in an excellent article on the subject I ran into last night:

http://indoeuro.bizland.com/aarchive.html
(The article is the first one in the list)

Both English and Farsi had a history of intimate interaction with other languages, resulting a a rapid decay of grammatical gender and the old IE suffixes. Both have become analytic in structure, with many helping verbs and prepositions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 14:13
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

What about Avestan? As you read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avestan_alphabet 
Avestan alphabet has 37 consonants and 16 vowels.
You said Swedish Y sound is similar to German Ü, so Avestan has also this sound.


No it doesn't! It says ū, not ü!!! Can't you see the difference?? (the line and two dots don't mean the same like in Arabic script!!!)

In fact, (Styrbiorn correct me if I'm wrong) the modern Swedish 'y' is not close to German ü - that's Swedish 'u'. Just like in Norwegian they have the word for house 'hus' /hy:s/, but the word for German 'tysk' /tʏsk/. And avestan didn't have either of the two.






Edited by Slayertplsko - 24-Jun-2008 at 14:19
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