History Community ~ All Empires Homepage


This is the Archive on WORLD Historia, the old original forum.

 You cannot post here - you can only read.

 

Here is the link to the new forum:

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Calendar   Register Register  Login Login


Forum LockedIndonesia: How did the largest Muslim country become Muslim?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>
Author
çok geç View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 29-Aug-2005
Location: Saudi Arabia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1780
Post Options Post Options   Quote çok geç Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Indonesia: How did the largest Muslim country become Muslim?
    Posted: 21-Sep-2005 at 15:10

Indonesia of 238 million inhabitant, the vast majority are Muslim though Islam arrived late in Indonesia sometime during the 12th century and, through assimilation,  it supplanted Hinduism by the end of the 16th century in Java and Sumatra. 

Im trying to find out with the limited English resources about that subject, who are those first Muslim missionaries? Traders? Yemenis? South Asians? How long that process took? Why did it go that fast?

Location of Indonesia



Edited by çok geç
D.J. Kaufman
Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk.
Back to Top
Zagros View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar
retired AE Moderator

Joined: 11-Aug-2004
Location: London
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8795
Post Options Post Options   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2005 at 15:59
It was through Persian and Moghul traders. the only country not to be under muslim imperial dominance that converted on its own accord.
Back to Top
çok geç View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 29-Aug-2005
Location: Saudi Arabia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1780
Post Options Post Options   Quote çok geç Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2005 at 16:35

Originally posted by Zagros

the only country not to be under muslim imperial dominance that converted on its own accord.

I like your selection of words. Do you have further information about those Mangul and Persian traders? What sect they were from? how long it took?

Does your statement that Indonesia was the only country not under Muslim conquest and converted on its own accord means that neighboring countries like Malaysia, Southern Philippines, and Sri Lanka came under Muslim Imperical control?

off topic, So are you in Scotland now or Iran



Edited by çok geç
D.J. Kaufman
Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk.
Back to Top
azimuth View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
SlaYer'S SlaYer

Joined: 12-Dec-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2983
Post Options Post Options   Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Sep-2005 at 23:47

this is from Encarta

Indian and Arab Muslims had traded with Indonesia for many centuries, but substantial evidence of the arrival of Islam in the islands dates from the late 13th century. At this time the coastal northern Sumatran states were beginning to accept Islam; the earliest known Muslim ruler there was Sultan Malik al Saleh of Pasai. Propagated by merchants attracted by the gold and forest products of the Sumatran hinterland, and by spices from southern India and Gujarat, the new religion spread slowly until the rise of the sultanate of Malacca (Melaka, see Malacca, Kingdom of) on Malaya’s west coast gave it a powerful impetus
Microsoft ® Encarta ® Premium Suite 2005. © 1993-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

and this from Britannica

Foreign Muslims had traded in Indonesia and China for many centuries; a Muslim tombstone in eastern Java bears a date corresponding to 1082. But substantial evidence of Islâm in Indonesia begins only in northern Sumatra at the end of the 13th century. Two small Muslim trading kingdoms existed bythat time at Samudra-Pasai and Perlak. A royal tomb at Samudra, of 1297, is inscribed entirely in Arabic. By the 15th century the beachheads of Islâm in Indonesia had multiplied with the emergence of several harbour kingdoms, ruled by local Muslim princes, on the north coast of Java and elsewhere along the main trading route as far east as Ternate and Tidore in the Moluccas.


 

Back to Top
HulaguHan View Drop Down
Suspended
Suspended
Avatar

Joined: 26-Jan-2005
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 370
Post Options Post Options   Quote HulaguHan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Sep-2005 at 20:48

Originally posted by Zagros

It was through Persian and Moghul traders. the only country not to be under muslim imperial dominance that converted on its own accord.

 

You forgot Turks. It is Turks who converted on its own accord for the first time:

-Karakhanids in 950s.

-Oghuz including Seljuks in 980s-1000s.

-Uighurs in 1200s.

-Kipchak Khanids in 1200s.

And many many more...

Also some Mongol tribes embraced to Islam by their will.

Back to Top
HulaguHan View Drop Down
Suspended
Suspended
Avatar

Joined: 26-Jan-2005
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 370
Post Options Post Options   Quote HulaguHan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Sep-2005 at 20:49
There are Arabic tribes also. They became muslim by tyheir own will.
Back to Top
Maju View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6571
Post Options Post Options   Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Sep-2005 at 22:34
I've found this in Wikipedia - Malay people (Indonesians and Filipinos are also Malay, at least most of them):

In terms of religion, most Malays had converted from Hinduism, Buddhism and animism to Islam in the early 15th century; influenced surprisingly, by Chinese seafarers from China who already had more than 700 years of interaction with Muslims from Middle East during the Islamic Golden Age. Today, Muslim Malays form the dominant religious group in Indonesia, Malaysia and Brunei. Their conversion to Islam from Hinduism and Theravada Buddhism began in the 1400s, largely influenced by the decision of the royal court of Malacca. Most Malays in Singapore, Thailand, South Africa, Sri Lanka and Surinam are also Muslims.

So it seems it was a local process started by local monarchs, particularly the king of Malacca. Still it reminds the christianization of Northern Europe where most conversions were caused by royal conversions first (with the possible exception of Ireland). Another example could be most parts of Muslim Black Africa, where islamization was not caused by invasion but rather by local processes, though the pressure from Muslim nomads and traders surely helped.

NO GOD, NO MASTER!
Back to Top
Zagros View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar
retired AE Moderator

Joined: 11-Aug-2004
Location: London
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8795
Post Options Post Options   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Sep-2005 at 03:19
There are many place names with Persian root, Banda Acheh for example, Bandar = port in Persian.
Back to Top
Iranban View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl


Joined: 28-Aug-2005
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 225
Post Options Post Options   Quote Iranban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Sep-2005 at 10:43

Originally posted by Zagros

There are many place names with Persian root, Banda Acheh for example, Bandar = port in Persian.

There are Persian tombs in Aceh.

Back to Top
Zagros View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar
retired AE Moderator

Joined: 11-Aug-2004
Location: London
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8795
Post Options Post Options   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Sep-2005 at 10:53
Really? Got any info on that? Also, the Sassanids and Parthians had trading colonies in East and South East Asia, I suppose these same routes and places were exploited in Islamic times. 
Back to Top
Zagros View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar
retired AE Moderator

Joined: 11-Aug-2004
Location: London
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8795
Post Options Post Options   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Sep-2005 at 10:57

Only country that I know of, there was no heathen tax to force them to convert on economic terms and there were no armies that established an Islamic elite to filter down Islam to the peasants.

Originally posted by çok geç

Originally posted by Zagros

the only country not to be under muslim imperial dominance that converted on its own accord.

I like your selection of words. Do you have further information about those Mangul and Persian traders? What sect they were from? how long it took?

Does your statement that Indonesia was the only country not under Muslim conquest and converted on its own accord means that neighboring countries like Malaysia, Southern Philippines, and Sri Lanka came under Muslim Imperical control?

off topic, So are you in Scotland now or Iran

Back to Top
Rajasa View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 15-Jun-2005
Location: Indonesia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
Post Options Post Options   Quote Rajasa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Sep-2005 at 11:16

Alot Muslim Traders from Arab,India, and China introducing Islam to us, and thats true some Persian also,even according to our historian my City where I born, Cirebon opened first time by Persian name Sheh datul kafi,

But we should give a cridit to Wali Sanga ( Nine messenger ) who spreading Islam in Java

Back to Top
çok geç View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 29-Aug-2005
Location: Saudi Arabia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1780
Post Options Post Options   Quote çok geç Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Sep-2005 at 11:19

Wow, thank you guys.

   I found this article too which is based on Ibn Batuta travels in that region 1345, it draws the borders of the Islamic world and trade lines during that time. It also establish the attention to the impact Malaysian Muslims had on their neighboring kingdoms. The publication of this article is on the San Francisco University School District, http://www.sfusd.k12.ca.us/schwww/sch618/Ibn_Battuta/Battuta 's_Trip_Nine.html.

Other ports along the way were also open to Muslim travelers and traders. Malay rulers encouraged Muslim traders to settle in their ports and bring the advantages of a strong trading economy. Once established, the Muslim neighborhoods needed judges, scribes (people who could write), teachers, religious leaders, and businessmen. And so, the trading neighborhoods became larger and more influential. The Malay rulers recognized the advantages of becoming Muslims, and many of them converted. As Muslim rulers, they could enter into the larger networks of trade and participate in the Dar al-Islam. Outside the trading centers, Islam would later develop, too. This process was just beginning as Ibn Battuta came through. A Malay prince, ruler of Samudra on the coast of Sumatra, had converted to Islam in the late 13th century. Some of his non-Muslim subjects may well have been pirates that plagued the merchant ships in the Strait of Malacca.

From Bangladesh,Chittagong, Ibn Batuta caught a Chinese junk and went to Samudra on the island of Sumatra. This really was the end of Dar al-Islam for no territory east of this was ruled by a Muslim ruler. Here he stayed for about two weeks in the wooden walled town as a guest of the sultan. The sultan then provided him with supplies and sent Ibn Battuta on one of his own junks to China.

Two maps of the Muslim world in 1300's and the second in the 1500's. It shows the expansion of Muslim South East Asia.

D.J. Kaufman
Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk.
Back to Top
HulaguHan View Drop Down
Suspended
Suspended
Avatar

Joined: 26-Jan-2005
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 370
Post Options Post Options   Quote HulaguHan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Sep-2005 at 16:19

Zagros, Indonesians are not alone. Turks also embraced Islam as an independent country without any foreign force.

Bernard Lewis mentions that in Karakhanid Khanate, 200.000 Tents embraced Islam on one night.

Check the facts again.

Back to Top
Zagros View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar
retired AE Moderator

Joined: 11-Aug-2004
Location: London
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8795
Post Options Post Options   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Sep-2005 at 16:30
Turks weren't a sedentery nation and can't be described as having a particular land at that point, as far as I have read they converted under the influence of empire not traders, in that sense indonesia is unique as far as I know.

Edited by Zagros
Back to Top
HulaguHan View Drop Down
Suspended
Suspended
Avatar

Joined: 26-Jan-2005
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 370
Post Options Post Options   Quote HulaguHan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Sep-2005 at 23:14
Zagros, you are a very illiteral person.

Just read Karakhanid Empire, OK. Or Kipchak Khanate, or Oghuz Khanate...

They became muslim with traders and missionaries.

BTW, which empire (you read) forced Turks to convert?

Turks weren't a sedentery nation and can't be described as having a particular land at that point,

Right after the embracement of Islam, they conquered Iran and made it a particyular land fo them for centuries and centuries.   
Back to Top
HulaguHan View Drop Down
Suspended
Suspended
Avatar

Joined: 26-Jan-2005
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 370
Post Options Post Options   Quote HulaguHan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Sep-2005 at 23:15
Guys ignore this dude, everybody knows Indonesians learned Islam from Yemeni ARabic traders and missionaries...

If you ask Zagros, everything, islam, Turks, Arabs are Iranic.
Back to Top
Iranban View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl


Joined: 28-Aug-2005
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 225
Post Options Post Options   Quote Iranban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Sep-2005 at 14:16

Originally posted by Zagros

Really? Got any info on that? Also, the Sassanids and Parthians had trading colonies in East and South East Asia, I suppose these same routes and places were exploited in Islamic times. 

 

No, mot really more than the fact that they exist, but i've asked an Indonesian friend, i'm waitin for his reply.

Back to Top
Iranban View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl


Joined: 28-Aug-2005
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 225
Post Options Post Options   Quote Iranban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Sep-2005 at 14:17

Originally posted by HulaguHan

If you ask Zagros, everything, islam, Turks, Arabs are Iranic.

 

Where did he say that?

Or maybe you are just provoking?

Back to Top
çok geç View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 29-Aug-2005
Location: Saudi Arabia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1780
Post Options Post Options   Quote çok geç Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Sep-2005 at 14:48

Well, it is so hard to distinguish between who accepted Islam through
Trade, science & education, or military might of nearby kingdoms. I won't
say that there are nations who had Islam being forced on them after the
conquest, because there is no imperical evidance of that
whatsoever if it wasn't the opposite, but Im sure that Malay, Turks, sub-
saharan Africa are examples of adopting Islam through personal
interaction of civilians rather than kingdoms and empires.

Drawing on this specific topic, I was delighted to find a more detailed
description of the nature and process of that personal interaction with
Muslim traders and merchants. An interview with Hamid Algabri
(born near Surabaya, East Java in 1912), lawyer, one of the leaders of
Indonesia's revolutionary movement, former member of Parliament, and a
prominent senior member of the Arab community in Indonesia, spoke to
Cynthia Myntti (CM) in Jakarta in March and April 1993.
http://www.aiys.org/webdate/gadr.html

He basically descriped the history of trade with Indonesian islands. Most
interesting of that article, that he confirms the point, Zagros mentioned
it, that trade with that region is as old as before Islam. However, with
Abbasid empire, that trade became an important cycle of spice trades
which increased the interaction with the locals.
Also, another interesting fact, that though Arab traders immigrated there
to settle in Indonesia, those wave of immigrants were mainly males! They
settled there and married Indonesian, and chinese wives and you cannot
distinguish them from Indonesians except with their surnames.

Rajasa, they say Kingdoms on the shore of Indonesian islands were
formed by immigrant Muslims merchants. Is this true? and did they clash
with local kingdoms?



Edited by çok geç
D.J. Kaufman
Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.078 seconds.