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Forum LockedIn Defence of Danish manhood

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Count Belisarius View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2008 at 19:58
 
[/QUOTE] And of course there's nothing remotely 'masculine' about having big muscles and beating people up. Concentrating on that is just a sign of feeling inferior.
[/QUOTE]
 
 
 
I agree thats not what masculinity is supposed too be, to me it's means a man who is responsible, caring, mature, respectful, who loves his wife and children and he won't neglect them in favor of his career and he can defend them if he has to.  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2008 at 20:09
Originally posted by Count Belisarius Count Belisarius wrote:

 
Quote And of course there's nothing remotely 'masculine' about having big muscles and beating people up. Concentrating on that is just a sign of feeling inferior.
 
 
 
I agree thats not what masculinity is supposed too be, to me it's means a man who is responsible, caring, mature, respectful, who loves his wife and children and he won't neglect them in favor of his career and he can defend them if he has to.  
 
So hardly your sterotypical Viking?


Edited by gcle2003 - 11-Aug-2008 at 20:09
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2008 at 20:26
There's no such thing as a "steriotypical" person.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2008 at 21:29

I probably should stay of of this, but as the only male dane on AE, I allow myself to make a few comments.

I'll use one random example (out of many) to prove my point by changing one of the authors sentences a little...
Boys play football, chew gum, shout and behave badly in public, dress slovenly, have bad attitudes.
Nothing wrong with that - thats what most boys do in the western world.
 
What he really said was....
Danish girls play football, chew gum, shout and behave badly in public, dress slovenly, have bad attitudes.
Now its wrong, bad and disgusting from his POV.
 
So according to him, boys and girls are not equal - and you can draw the same line through the whole essay. Women and girls should not behave like men and boys - they are not equal to us. They must be controlled and learn to know their place and behave accordingly.
 
I have travelled a great deal and I still do, and one thing that always were quite obvious, was the male superiority in most other societies - and very noticable on the family level. Quite a difference from what I find natural and how I think it should be.
 
I think the author is a scared little man - he feels his male domination threatened if the situation in Denmark should spread to his part of the world.
 
Well, I have news for him. His tribal macho attitude is slowly disintergrating. He is just at the same stage as we were 50 or 60 years back where daddy was the sole provider and the ultimate dominator of the family.
I'm happy to be able to report that we are past that stage of development in certain parts of Northern Europe,  Scandinavia, and in this case specifically, Denmark. Women/girls are valued counterparts and we see them as equal partners in our lives, not an inferior species.
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2008 at 23:02
So back in the fifty's women were treated like an inferior species? according to my Dad my Mom and my grandparents women were never treated like that and the fifty's were, according to them, one of the best decades this nation has ever seen, and a girl who tries to be boy has serious problems, women should act ladylike and men should gentlemanly.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2008 at 14:23
Originally posted by Count Belisarius Count Belisarius wrote:

So back in the fifty's women were treated like an inferior species?
By the 'fifties it was already changing in most places. But yes, still then on TV and in the movies and the magazines, women were widely supposed to have their 'proper place' in the home, in the kitchen, bringing up the children and not competing with men in professional activities - except teaching children - or having a serious business career, because they could never match men in those 'important' affairs.
 
That's treating them as an inferior species  (though again I emphasise that by the 'fifties the tide was begnning to turn, partly as a result of the war, and partly actually because of the attitude of the Communist countries (though even there women never really scaled the heights of power).
 
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according to my Dad my Mom and my grandparents women were never treated like that
Ask them about washing powder commercials. And Doris Day films.
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and the fifty's were, according to them, one of the best decades this nation has ever seen,
and a girl who tries to be boy has serious problems,
Why? And anyway we're not talking about girls 'trying to be boys' but girls competing with boys.
 
But I'll go along with the 'fifties actually being a great decade, in that it was the most optimistic of any since Edwardian times.
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women should act ladylike and men should gentlemanly.
 
Backtracking a bit:
Originally posted by Count Belisarius Count Belisarius wrote:

 I agree thats not what masculinity is supposed too be, to me it's means a man who is responsible, caring, mature, respectful, who loves his wife and children and he won't neglect them in favor of his career and he can defend them if he has to.  
What's wrong with substituting 'her' for 'his' and 'she' for 'he' (and 'husband' for 'wife') throughout that last part?
Are you implying that only he should have a career?
How would you define femininity?
And you seem to be implying some kind of anarchic state in which the individual's responsibilities are only to his own family.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2008 at 15:20

Thats not what I meant, I know a woman who is ashamed because her new baby is a girl in fact when her mother in law sent a sweater to the baby the mom sent it back becuase it had a "feminine" theme. I define femininity as a woman who is polite, courteous, Godly, and who is not afraid to wear makeup thinking it will somehow "degrade" her, you should talk to my mom on some of this stuff. What should a Man be responsible to? his governmet? his career? at the neglect of his family like millions of americans do today? I have a lot of freinds who have parents like that, is that what you want?.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2008 at 17:08
I think you miss the point CB - maybe this article in a womens magazine in 1955 can convince you that women were, and still are in many places, inferior to men.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2008 at 18:38
Originally posted by Count Belisarius Count Belisarius wrote:

Thats not what I meant, I know a woman who is ashamed because her new baby is a girl in fact when her mother in law sent a sweater to the baby the mom sent it back becuase it had a "feminine" theme. I define femininity as a woman who is polite, courteous, Godly, and who is not afraid to wear makeup thinking it will somehow "degrade" her,

What has 'Godly' got to do with it? Are you suggesting only women who believe in God can be feminine? Which God, or will any one do?
 
I've yet to come across any woman, including some who have had considerable success in business, the professions and even the army, who thinks wearing make-up 'degrades' anyone. It doesn't degrade men either for that matter. And the need to be polite and courteous is just as important for men as for women.
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you should talk to my mom on some of this stuff. What should a Man be responsible to? his governmet? his career? at the neglect of his family like millions of americans do today? I have a lot of freinds who have parents like that, is that what you want?.
People should not neglect their families - it's not particularly a masculine or feminine requirement. Or are you suggesting it's OK for women to neglect their families?
 
People should also be responsible to society (which is one of the reasons they should not neglect their children). I don't know what you mean by being responsible 'to his career', but it is also true that people should live up to ethical codes of their profession or vocation. A doctor's responsibility to a patient is the same whether the doctor (or the patient) is a woman or a man. Same goes for lawyer and client, or realtor and client. And so on.
 
In what ways someone should be responsible to society is a matter for political discussion, but it is the same for men and women.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2008 at 19:02
I think fenemism started with good intentions of equality. But growing up in America i was awe struck at the female favoring bias around. I always viewed men and women as equal. I don't believe in stupid rules like "don't hit girls." My mother taught me that if anyone threatens my well being I defend myself. But if you watch even a few days of American tv you see men being rideculed much more often. Femenism no longer seeks equality, but superiority spreading propagandist non sense. Men are big lumbering animals that eat sleep and only want to get in your pants while the women are powerful individuals that must tame and train these brutes. Of course that is only if you fancy men. It's funny reading some stupidities concerning sex today. During the puritan movement women weren't to really enjoy sex, now it is the other way around.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2008 at 19:30
...and that is why women still on average get much less than a man in the job market... if we had a female favoring bias, maybe that inequality that is very real and insulting

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2008 at 20:02
Originally posted by Carpathian Wolf Carpathian Wolf wrote:

I think fenemism started with good intentions of equality. But growing up in America i was awe struck at the female favoring bias around. I always viewed men and women as equal. I don't believe in stupid rules like "don't hit girls." My mother taught me that if anyone threatens my well being I defend myself. But if you watch even a few days of American tv you see men being rideculed much more often. Femenism no longer seeks equality, but superiority spreading propagandist non sense. Men are big lumbering animals that eat sleep and only want to get in your pants while the women are powerful individuals that must tame and train these brutes. Of course that is only if you fancy men. It's funny reading some stupidities concerning sex today. During the puritan movement women weren't to really enjoy sex, now it is the other way around.


Yep, lots of preference for women here. That is why there is an income gap between women and men, where women get about .75 cents for every dollar a man earns for the same kind of work. This is true even in Hollywood, where male actors make more money than female ones.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2008 at 22:20
I'm not denying that there is bias agaisnt women pay wise, but you can not deny the social media bias that favor women over men.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2008 at 22:27
... again that is why the media portrays women as whores if they choose to have sex, while the men in the media are more or less praised for the same actions... 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2008 at 22:49
Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:

... again that is why the media portrays women as whores if they choose to have sex, while the men in the media are more or less praised for the same actions... 
 
Your sarcasm is boring me.
 
I didn't say the media was fully in favor of women, sexism exists against both genders, I was simply affirming some aspects of this article.
 
And to be honest women havn't been viewed as whores for having sex since the 60s. Maybe you mean sleeping around and having casual sex? Sorry, that sort of stopped in the late 90s. I personally view any gender sleeping around as a bit whorish but to each his own.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2008 at 22:55
You need to wake up if you sincerely think that women are not viewed negatiely for excercising their own right in that aspect. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2008 at 23:08

Everyone is viewed in a negative way for everything by a certain member. For the most part the one calling women whores are other women anyway. So what can you do...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2008 at 17:11
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by Count Belisarius Count Belisarius wrote:

Thats not what I meant, I know a woman who is ashamed because her new baby is a girl in fact when her mother in law sent a sweater to the baby the mom sent it back becuase it had a "feminine" theme. I define femininity as a woman who is polite, courteous, Godly, and who is not afraid to wear makeup thinking it will somehow "degrade" her,

What has 'Godly' got to do with it? Are you suggesting only women who believe in God can be feminine? Which God, or will any one do?
 
I've yet to come across any woman, including some who have had considerable success in business, the professions and even the army, who thinks wearing make-up 'degrades' anyone. It doesn't degrade men either for that matter. And the need to be polite and courteous is just as important for men as for women.
Quote
you should talk to my mom on some of this stuff. What should a Man be responsible to? his governmet? his career? at the neglect of his family like millions of americans do today? I have a lot of freinds who have parents like that, is that what you want?.
People should not neglect their families - it's not particularly a masculine or feminine requirement. Or are you suggesting it's OK for women to neglect their families?
 
People should also be responsible to society (which is one of the reasons they should not neglect their children). I don't know what you mean by being responsible 'to his career', but it is also true that people should live up to ethical codes of their profession or vocation. A doctor's responsibility to a patient is the same whether the doctor (or the patient) is a woman or a man. Same goes for lawyer and client, or realtor and client. And so on.
 
In what ways someone should be responsible to society is a matter for political discussion, but it is the same for men and women.
 
 
 Thats not what I meant I would appreciate it if wouldn't twist my statemnet around like that again (straw man fallacy), when I say Godly I'm talking about the God of the bible, and no I'm not saying it's okay for the women to neglect their family's, again straw man fallacy, as for women thining makeup degrades them, clearly you've never been to colarado.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2008 at 20:04
Originally posted by Count Belisarius Count Belisarius wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by Count Belisarius Count Belisarius wrote:

Thats not what I meant, I know a woman who is ashamed because her new baby is a girl in fact when her mother in law sent a sweater to the baby the mom sent it back becuase it had a "feminine" theme. I define femininity as a woman who is polite, courteous, Godly, and who is not afraid to wear makeup thinking it will somehow "degrade" her,

What has 'Godly' got to do with it? Are you suggesting only women who believe in God can be feminine? Which God, or will any one do?
 
I've yet to come across any woman, including some who have had considerable success in business, the professions and even the army, who thinks wearing make-up 'degrades' anyone. It doesn't degrade men either for that matter. And the need to be polite and courteous is just as important for men as for women.
Quote
you should talk to my mom on some of this stuff. What should a Man be responsible to? his governmet? his career? at the neglect of his family like millions of americans do today? I have a lot of freinds who have parents like that, is that what you want?.
People should not neglect their families - it's not particularly a masculine or feminine requirement. Or are you suggesting it's OK for women to neglect their families?
 
People should also be responsible to society (which is one of the reasons they should not neglect their children). I don't know what you mean by being responsible 'to his career', but it is also true that people should live up to ethical codes of their profession or vocation. A doctor's responsibility to a patient is the same whether the doctor (or the patient) is a woman or a man. Same goes for lawyer and client, or realtor and client. And so on.
 
In what ways someone should be responsible to society is a matter for political discussion, but it is the same for men and women.
 
 
 Thats not what I meant I would appreciate it if wouldn't twist my statemnet around like that again (straw man fallacy),
What did I twist?
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when I say Godly I'm talking about the God of the bible,
I assumed that. You said part of your definition of femininity was 'godly'. That indicates that someone cannot be feminine in your view unless she believes in the god of the Bible.
That'se not 'twisting' what you said. And incidentally, like most people here, I know what a 'straw man' argument is.
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 and no I'm not saying it's okay for the women to neglect their family's,
You said men should not neglect their families. You didn't mention it with regard to women.
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again straw man fallacy, as for women thinking makeup degrades them, clearly you've never been to colarado.
Well, I agree that's true, and I probably never will now. But I've been to all the North-Eastern states, Georgia, Alabama, the Carolinas, Virginia and California, as well as many other countries altogether, and I have an American wife, and I had a couple of American affairs before that, and so far I've never come across a woman who didn't make up to some degree, and never one who thought that 'degraded' her. And you can include in that a whole Primitive Baptist community that my wife's family belonged to and a series of their ministers' wives.
 
I've never visited Colorado. You appear to have never visited planet Earth.
 
If you want to have another shot at defining femininity and masculinity, feel free.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2008 at 21:07

I'll say nothing, except I think the 50's are hardly representative of previous eras, it was more conservative with regard to roles than any time since 1900's. Effect of the war I guess.

 
Also if I was a dane, I would worry more about whether or not the socialist paradise can be maintained in a fiscally responsible manner over the next few decades than "feminising men".
 
Finally, why are Anglophone middle class values being presented as the norm? In most societys men do know how to sew.
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