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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2009 at 14:02
Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:

...
Considering the example of Spain it would seem as if the negative social associations came first, the discrimination towards a certain skin colour group then followed. It was a result of darker skin being associated with foreign Muslim invaders who had eventually been overcome and reduced to second rate citizenhood - it was not as if they were considered lower status from the outset because of their complexion. As a natural consequence lighter skin became associated with the "genuine" Catholic Iberians who hadn't mixed with the foreigners, and the "limpieza de sangre" ("purity of blood") became a prerequisite for higher state offices while Iberian aristocrats aggrandized themselves by claiming heritage from the Goths. It can be concluded then that race discrimination stemmed from the social status associated with a certain perceived race, and within the framework of Iberia skin colour was seen as a way of establishing a person's genetic and religious heritage. In other words we find racism, class discrimination and religious discrimination in one volatile soup.
 
Racism shouldn't be confussed with clasism, elitism, nobility titles and the search of the "blue blood".
 
I am afraid, though, the Goths weren't the ideal of intelligence for old Spaniards at all, but an example of barbarian. "Vandalo" in Spanish comes from Valdalus, and means savage ConfusedConfused. Nope, the ideal weren't germans but romans. Spaniards believed they were authentic Romans.
 
Besides, the same obsesion that anglosaxons have for skin color also exist in the Iberian peoples, but not with respect to color per se but facial features. So, some groups are excluded or downplayed precisely because the facial features don't fit the ideal.
 
 
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 10-Mar-2009 at 14:05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2009 at 14:46
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Racism shouldn't be confussed with clasism, elitism, nobility titles and the search of the "blue blood".


My point was that racism and elitism aren't mutually exclusive but tend to work in tandem.
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

I am afraid, though, the Goths weren't the ideal of intelligence for old Spaniards at all, but an example of barbarian. "Vandalo" in Spanish comes from Valdalus, and means savage ConfusedConfused. Nope, the ideal weren't germans but romans. Spaniards believed they were authentic Romans.


There is an article on the medieval Iberian aristocracy, IIRC it was the Portuguese to be specific, in the book "Nobles and Nobility in Medieval Europe" (available on amazon). The author explains how noblemen would pride themselves on being descended from los Godos. I doubt this phenomenon was limited to Portugal, and while I haven't encountered the claim that some preferred a Roman ancestry it wouldn't surprise me.
Hwæt! wē Gār-Dena in geār-dagum,
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hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2009 at 14:53
Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:


My point was that racism and elitism aren't mutually exclusive but tend to work in tandem.


Racism is just one type of elitism. I personally do not see such a difference between the black-white apartheid in the USA and S. Africa and that practiced in Muslim North Africa. Despite the latter has no biological ideology behind it, the consequences are the same.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2009 at 14:59
Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:

 


Racism is just one type of elitism. I personally do not see such a difference between the black-white apartheid in the USA and S. Africa

 
 
It was called " racial segregation " in the USA.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jallaludin Akbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2009 at 21:33
Racism and imperialism/colonialism work hand-in-hand. If you are an imperialistic power, you use racism to justify your imperialistic actions.

Colonial powers have often tried to prove that their race is superior to others, even in certain sciences such as eugenics (in which they prove a single master race contributes to evolution and the betterment of mankind) and phrenology (stating that the shape of a persons head determines their intellectual and physical capability) which are exclusive to europeans. They also impliment race-inspired literature such as Rudyard Kipling's "White Man's Burden", or Tolkien's "The Lord of the Rings", or even Burrough's "Tarzan" where he impliments the idea of 'The Noble Savage' who is loyal and inferior to white men. 

And yes, ancient greeks/romans incorprated racial supremacy into their society that allowed them to conquer "inferior powers" or "barbarians" (romans especially).

Eugenics (Hitler incorporated this to an even higher degree): 


Phrenology (especially famous in the late middle ages/renaissance):




Edited by Jallaludin Akbar - 10-Mar-2009 at 21:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 08:07
Originally posted by Jallaludin Akbar Jallaludin Akbar wrote:

And yes, ancient greeks/romans incorprated racial supremacy into their society that allowed them to conquer "inferior powers" or "barbarians" (romans especially).



I would disagree. No nation ever conquers another motivated by racial differences. The differences are always "invented" later to justify the domination.

In this sense, the ancient Romans, Greeks, Persians and Chinese were not particularly "racist" people in that they barely classified their "barbarians" on biological terms, but rather by language and tribal affinity.
Romans looked down on Germans and Celts not because they were tall and blond, but rather because they were illiterate and didn't live in cities. Nevertheless, a German or a Celt could integrate into Roman society if he was a Roman citizen and gew up within the norms of Roman society.
Furthermore, the Romans constantly incorporated "conquered" nationalities and "foreigners" into their mainstream; a practice radically different to the apartheid system of the 19th century European superpowers.

Int the 1st century B.C. Marius and Cicero, who came from families who received Roman citizenship only 2 generations ago, were considered by some conservatives as "foreigners" who questioned their "Romanness".
Nevertheless, they too would have considered many principate era emperors: such as Trajan, Hadrian (hispanics), and Septimus Severus (Moor) as "barbarians" for being of provincial descent...

Bigotry and elitism surely existed in these ancient empires; yet the prejuidice and sense of superiority based on skull-shape and colour skin as in the recent centuries was yet to come.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 08:35
Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:

 
 
Originally posted by Jallaludin Akbar Jallaludin Akbar wrote:

 
 
And yes, ancient greeks/romans incorprated racial supremacy into their society that allowed them to conquer "inferior powers" or "barbarians" (romans especially).
 



I would disagree.No nation ever conquers another motivated by racial differences.The differences are always "invented" later to justify the domination.
 
The ancient Romans, Greeks, Persians and Chinese were not particularly "racist" people in that they barely classified their "barbarians" on biological terms, but rather by language and tribal affinity.

 
 
 
Superiority complex of antiquity not equivalent to modern day institutional racism born out of European Imperialism from 18th century if not earlier.In the 15th-17th centuries,spice trade and treasures were main motives ( not about conquering non-White peoples ) of the Dutch Spaniards Portuguess British French mercantile and imperialists.
 
 
 


Edited by pebbles - 11-Mar-2009 at 09:08
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 19:03

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Rhodes in his will left £10 million to fund scholarships to study in England. There were absolutely no racial conditions attached to who could benefit.

Big smile

From Rhodes' will, which established the Rhodes Scholarship:

I contend that we are the finest race in the world and that the more of the world we inhabit the better it is for the human race. Just fancy those parts that are at present inhabited by the most despicable specimens of human beings; what an alteration there would be if they were brought under Anglo-Saxon influence, look again at the extra employment a new country added to our dominions gives. I contend that every acre added to our territory means in the future birth to some more of the English race who otherwise would not be brought into existence ...

... The idea gleaming and dancing before one's eyes like a will-of-the wisp at last frames itself into a plan. Why should we not form a secret society with but one object the furtherance of the British Empire and the bringing of the whole uncivilised world under British rule for the recovery of the United States for the making the Anglo-Saxon race but one Empire ... think of those countless 1000's of Englishmen that during the last 100 years would have crossed the Atlantic and settled and populated the United States. Would they have not made without any prejudice a finer country of it than the low class Irish and German emigrants? All this we have lost and that country loses owing to whom? Owing to two or three ignorant pig-headed statesmen of the last century, at their door lies the blame. Do you ever feel mad? do you ever feel murderous. I think I do with those men ...

... It is our duty to seize every oportunity of acquiring more territory and we should keep this one idea steadily before our eyes that more territory simply means more of the Anglo-Saxon race more of the best the most human, most honourable race the world possesses. 

To forward such a scheme what a splendid help a secret society would be a society not openly acknowledged but who would work in secret for such an object ... Let us form the same kind of society a Church for the extension of the British Empire. A society which should have its members in every part of the British Empire working with one object and one idea we should have its members placed at our universities and our schools ... 

In every Colonial legislature the Society should attempt to have its members prepared at all times to vote or speak and advocate the closer union of England and the colonies, to crush all disloyalty and every movement for the severance of our Empire. The Society should inspire and even own portions of the press for the press rules the mind of the people. The Society should always be searching for members who might by their position in the world by their energies or character forward the object but the ballot and test for admittance should be severe ...

For fear that death might cut me off before the time for attempting its development I leave all my worldly goods in trust to S. G. Shippard and the Secretary for the Colonies at the time of my death to try to form such a Society with such an object.

So you see, the object of the Rhodes Scholarship - as it was originally implemented - was to give scholarships to members of the "Anglo-Saxon race" living abroad, to ensure domination of the colonies by a master race, and prevent any from leaving the British Empire as the US did.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 22:54
 
RHODES: The Life & Legend of Cecil Rhodes
 
Programme Notes and Review: Rhodes, the video, is the outcome of many years of interest on the part of its originator, author, and executive producer Antony Thomas. Antony Thomas was brought up in South Africa during the 1950s when, as part of the backlash against Afrikaner nationalism among English-speaking whites, he was taught to see Rhodes as the progenitor of a liberal multi-racial tradition that had been destroyed by Apartheid. So it came as a shock in later years to discover that Rhodes was a racist and by no means a liberal.
 
Source: http://ubh.tripod.com/ac/vid.htm
 
 
I watched this BBC series on local PBS channel in the late 90's,it was a superb TV production and riveting biography drama.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2009 at 12:24
Originally posted by edgewaters edgewaters wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Rhodes in his will left £10 million to fund scholarships to study in England. There were absolutely no racial conditions attached to who could benefit.

Big smile

From Rhodes' will, which established the Rhodes Scholarship:

I contend that we are the finest race in the world and that the more of the world we inhabit the better it is for the human race. Just fancy those parts that are at present inhabited by the most despicable specimens of human beings; what an alteration there would be if they were brought under Anglo-Saxon influence, look again at the extra employment a new country added to our dominions gives. I contend that every acre added to our territory means in the future birth to some more of the English race who otherwise would not be brought into existence ...

... The idea gleaming and dancing before one's eyes like a will-of-the wisp at last frames itself into a plan. Why should we not form a secret society with but one object the furtherance of the British Empire and the bringing of the whole uncivilised world under British rule for the recovery of the United States for the making the Anglo-Saxon race but one Empire ... think of those countless 1000's of Englishmen that during the last 100 years would have crossed the Atlantic and settled and populated the United States. Would they have not made without any prejudice a finer country of it than the low class Irish and German emigrants? All this we have lost and that country loses owing to whom? Owing to two or three ignorant pig-headed statesmen of the last century, at their door lies the blame. Do you ever feel mad? do you ever feel murderous. I think I do with those men ...

... It is our duty to seize every oportunity of acquiring more territory and we should keep this one idea steadily before our eyes that more territory simply means more of the Anglo-Saxon race more of the best the most human, most honourable race the world possesses. 

To forward such a scheme what a splendid help a secret society would be a society not openly acknowledged but who would work in secret for such an object ... Let us form the same kind of society a Church for the extension of the British Empire. A society which should have its members in every part of the British Empire working with one object and one idea we should have its members placed at our universities and our schools ... 

In every Colonial legislature the Society should attempt to have its members prepared at all times to vote or speak and advocate the closer union of England and the colonies, to crush all disloyalty and every movement for the severance of our Empire. The Society should inspire and even own portions of the press for the press rules the mind of the people. The Society should always be searching for members who might by their position in the world by their energies or character forward the object but the ballot and test for admittance should be severe ...

For fear that death might cut me off before the time for attempting its development I leave all my worldly goods in trust to S. G. Shippard and the Secretary for the Colonies at the time of my death to try to form such a Society with such an object.

So you see, the object of the Rhodes Scholarship - as it was originally implemented - was to give scholarships to members of the "Anglo-Saxon race" living abroad, to ensure domination of the colonies by a master race, and prevent any from leaving the British Empire as the US did.

My statement is still accurate. There are no racial conditions attached to qualifying for a Rhodes scholarship. Also your extract merely confirms what I said earlier about Rhodes opinion of the French and the Germans (that is, I said French, and the extract says Irish but the sentiment is the same). There's no doubt that Rhodes was an imperialist and a nationalist (as I originally said) but to call him a 'racist' in a situation where the modern meaning of 'racism' is obviously implied, is wrong.
 
He did not, that is, believe in the superiority of the 'white' race.
 
And the fact that he described the Anglo-Saxons as a 'race' is irrelevant to that.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2009 at 12:36
Originally posted by edgewaters edgewaters wrote:

 

From Rhodes' will, which established the Rhodes Scholarship:

... The idea gleaming and dancing before one's eyes like a will-of-the wisp at last frames itself into a plan. Why should we not form a secret society with but one object the furtherance of the British Empire and the bringing of the whole uncivilised world under British rule for the recovery of the United States for the making the Anglo-Saxon race but one Empire ... think of those countless 1000's of Englishmen that during the last 100 years would have crossed the Atlantic and settled and populated the United States. Would they have not made without any prejudice a finer country of it than the low class Irish and German emigrants ? All this we have lost and that country loses owing to whom? Owing to two or three ignorant pig-headed statesmen of the last century, at their door lies the blame. Do you ever feel mad ? do you ever feel murderous. I think I do with those men ...

 
 
This is not " bigotry " Shocked !?
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2009 at 14:03
Of course it's bigotry. It's not racism. The two words do not mean the same thing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2009 at 18:16

It's racial supremacism. 

" we are the finest race in the world and that the more of the world we inhabit the better it is for the human race."

"Just fancy those parts that are at present inhabited by the most despicable specimens of human beings"

"for the making the Anglo-Saxon race but one Empire" (Ein Volk, ein Reich!!)

"more territory simply means more of the Anglo-Saxon race more of the best the most human, most honourable race the world possesses"

This is plainly racial supremacism.

Whether or not racial conditions were attached to the scholarships is irrelevant, Rhodes' idea was that Anglo-Saxons were "the best" "race" and they should rule the world, and the scholarship was set up with the object of cultivating sympathizers to that end. Their race didn't matter, so long as they advanced the interests of Anglo-Saxon supremacism.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2009 at 19:00
It's not racism as we speak of today. Don't get hung up on the word "race", it was used quite differently back then.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2009 at 09:04
 
Racism evolved to present form.The word " race " matters to modern day Western people more than any ethnicities.As a fact,they have racist groups.
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2009 at 09:36
Originally posted by pebbles pebbles wrote:

 
Racism evolved to present form.The word " race " matters to modern day Western people more than any ethnicities.As a fact,they have racist groups.
 
 
Nobody gives a crap about races here - ethnicities are much more important. The US Americans seem quite into races, but that's not the same as the whole Western world. The point still stands, words change.
 


Edited by Styrbiorn - 13-Mar-2009 at 09:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2009 at 10:49
Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

 
 
Nobody gives a crap about races here - ethnicities are much more important. The US Americans seem quite into races, but that's not the same as the whole Western world. The point still stands, words change.
 


I think in most European countries it is ethnicity, religious background, and nationality that matters far more than race. Prejuidice does exist, but different groups usually do not perceive themselves in a "racial sense" as they do in America. Again, as I mentioned earlier, the line is pretty blurred.
Many xenophobic Spaniards hate any foreigner who's from a poorer country; doesn't matter whether they're Moroccan, Rumanian, Dominican, Ukrainian, Chinese, Ecuadorean, or even Portuguese!

It is interesting that human society has always divided itself into "in-groups" and "out-groups", only that the criteria for discrimination changes over time and place.
The Romans and Greeks used legal status as the prime discriminator (citizen, foreigner, or slave); medieval Europe used religion and bloodline (noble or commoner), Central Asia used tribal affiliation... the concept of "biological race" only came about in the 19th century.

It is interesting to think that in the early days of European imperial expansion in the 1600s, Europeans colonists did not perceive their differences with the natives along "racial lines".
The early British in India perceived the Indians as a different nationality and marriages between Britons and Indians were common, provided that they both belonged to the same social class. Upper class Britons could marry higher-caste Indians, and lower-class Britons with lower-class Indians.
What was more unacceptable was the marriage between different social classes rather than between different "colours".

In the 17th and 18th century many European noblemen also had native-American or African blood, yet contemporary sources commented very little about it; what was important was that they were of noble bloodline.






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2009 at 11:14
Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:

 
 
Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

 
 
 
Nobody gives a crap about races here - ethnicities are much more important.
 
The US Americans seem quite into races, but that's not the same as the whole Western world. The point still stands, words change.
 


I think in most European countries it is ethnicity, religious background, and nationality that matters far more than race.
 


 
 
Because those European nations don't have large percentage " racial minorities " except for UK Germany France & Russia.
 
America's White people don't divide themselves by respective European origins or ethnicities,they're bonded by the superficial racial category " White ".
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2009 at 11:40
Originally posted by pebbles pebbles wrote:



Because those European nations don't have large percentage " racial minorities " except for UK Germany France & Russia.
 
America's White people don't divide themselves by respective European origins or ethnicities,they're bonded by the superficial racial category " White ".
 


You claimed people in the West care about races more than ethnicities. This is pure nonsense, whatever the reason may be. Again, if you meant America, then please say so.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2009 at 11:59
Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

 
 
Originally posted by pebbles pebbles wrote:



Because those European nations don't have large percentage " racial minorities " except for UK Germany France & Russia.
 
America's White people don't divide themselves by respective European origins or ethnicities,they're bonded by the superficial racial category " White ".

 
 


You claimed people in the West care about races more than ethnicities. This is pure nonsense, whatever the reason may be. Again, if you meant America, then please say so.
 

 
 
I wrote in reference to " Western people " in generic term not " West " specifically.
 
I always know US operates the biggest propaganda machine in the world.This country often presents itself as " The West " in representation of continental Europe & all European peoples,it's pure nonsense to me LOL.They were Europe's " country cousins " LOL .1950's was the last decade of Eurocentrism in America.Canada and British Pacific Oceania are more English culturally and politically than USA.
 
 
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