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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Feb-2007 at 14:03
Originally posted by barbar barbar wrote:

Originally posted by Nick Nick wrote:

 
Huns had no homeland.
 
 
You really need to explain this words of yours.
 
 


I think he means that because they were nomads.

But nomads are not gypsies my friend they had there own pastures winter and summer pastures
I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Feb-2007 at 18:07
He's right to some extent. Huns never settled in a single place for long. That's why the Huns never had a capital or other cities. And it makes sense. Huns had huge number of horses, and if they stayed in a location for too long, they would contaminate and kill the soil. Plus, the overwhelming amount of wastes from the horses may spread diseases and sickness... Huns have to move constantly. But they believed in no national boundaries. Whereever their gods led them was their home. 
     
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MING-LOYALIST Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Feb-2007 at 19:33
If the Huns are the descendents of Xiongnu then their homeland is inner mongolia and mongolia.
 
They originally mainly settled in the ordos region of inner mongolia before being kick out by the Qin army and later had a royal court set up in inner mongolia, where the Chanyu(Leader) and Yanzhi(his wife) lived with hostages of subject tribes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Feb-2007 at 23:31
Originally posted by barbar barbar wrote:

Originally posted by Nick Nick wrote:

 
Huns had no homeland.
 
 
You really need to explain this words of yours.
 
 
 
Dear i didn't liked that map and the way how one goes into Iran/india etc etc.
 
I wise i could of explan to you why i said "Huns had no homeland" because i do not believe in the word "HUN" as an ONE group or tribe, althought it has been studied for many years but still no good luck in many questions that are asked.
 
Like for Example
 
Were the Huns a single tribe?
if they were why WAS there war among these tribes/empires.
 
Who are the Huns? Chinese (pure Altics/ Orientals ) Turks(Iranic mixed) Mongolians (Mixed Altics) etc etc.
 
Did the Huns called themselve "Huns"
 
Who were the European Huns?
 
and the lest goes on and on. As much as we like to talk about it the more we get confussed it can be very easy for Turkics to claim the northern Huns of central Asia, but what about south? Central Asia is a big region and never from a single race/ethnics.
 
 
Like for example the "Hephthalites" so called the "Indo-European" or Iranian looking, were they huns? or those the name was just flown to them.
 
We can say even the word HUN and their background race is uncertain. So why do we have people mixing things up. Offcourse no-Offense to my dear fellow Turks or pro-Hunnics. If there is any new information that proves certains questions then please share it with me.
 
 
My first question how does that map above with i disagree with supports that real huns were from Mongolia and if they were. What prove do we have that they reached Iran.
Aryan code: You keep what you kill.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Feb-2007 at 23:32
Originally posted by pekau pekau wrote:

He's right to some extent. Huns never settled in a single place for long. That's why the Huns never had a capital or other cities. And it makes sense. Huns had huge number of horses, and if they stayed in a location for too long, they would contaminate and kill the soil. Plus, the overwhelming amount of wastes from the horses may spread diseases and sickness... Huns have to move constantly. But they believed in no national boundaries. Whereever their gods led them was their home. 
 
dear Pekau every empire must have horses.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Xiongnu Hun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Feb-2007 at 01:25

Ok Iranian41.All Turkologists lie,dna tests lie,lingual tests lie,antropological researches lie and you are telling us the truth!Sure that we will believe you.

There were Iranic nomads like Alans in Hun control,but Huns are Turkic.


Edited by Xiongnu Hun - 12-Feb-2007 at 01:27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Feb-2007 at 01:32
Originally posted by Xiongnu Hun Xiongnu Hun wrote:

Ok Iranian41.All Turkologists lie,dna tests lie,lingual tests lie,antropological researches lie and you are telling us the truth!Sure that we will believe you.

There were Iranic nomads like Alans in Hun control,but Huns are Turkic.

c'mon dude why make a nother account for it they cab track Ip you idiot who ever you areSleepy
I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Xiongnu Hun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Feb-2007 at 05:30
I forgot my username and passwordOuch.I remembered username afer a new membership but still don't know the password =).
Everybody here!I am Huncuk =)Thumbs%20Up.An ı changed my nicname to Xiongnu Kün,huncuk was meaning hunling =).I am better with a greater nickname!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Feb-2007 at 09:21
Xiongnu Hun.
 
SInce you are double dippping, I would like you to pm or email one of the staff to look into you username and password. We will correct the problem and suspend one of your unused accounts.
Copyright © 2004 Seko
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2007 at 13:31
Originally posted by Nick Nick wrote:

 
Dear i didn't liked that map and the way how one goes into Iran/india etc etc.
 
 
If you don't like the map, then discuss the map. Saying a group of people didn't have homeland is just pure ignorance. We know Indoeuropean people (Including Iranic) were nomadic too. Can we say they didn't have home land? 
 
Quote  
I wise i could of explan to you why i said "Huns had no homeland" because i do not believe in the word "HUN" as an ONE group or tribe, althought it has been studied for many years but still no good luck in many questions that are asked.
 
 
History is based on facts, not your personal beliefs. If you don't know anything about a topic, then the wisest way is to put forward questions, not blind dinial. You should know denying something also needs some knowledge.   
 
Quote
Like for Example
 
Were the Huns a single tribe?
if they were why WAS there war among these tribes/empires.
 
 
I don't know which HUNs you meant here. Anyway I can give you definate answer, there was a single tribe called "HUN" among Turkic people.
 
Wars among same tribes were so common all through the history. I think you also need to expand your historical knowledge in that field.
 
Quote  
 
Who are the Huns? Chinese (pure Altics/ Orientals ) Turks(Iranic mixed) Mongolians (Mixed Altics) etc etc.
 
 
Racial definition for a nomadic group doesn't make a sense.
 
Quote
 
Did the Huns called themselve "Huns"
 
 
If they hadn't called themselves "HUN", I wonder where was this name came from.  Hun, Qun, Kun all have common root, relating to the SUN god they worship.  
 
Quote
Who were the European Huns?
 
 
They were a tribal confederacy comprising of many different groups. Leading group was OGHUR tribes (Tura tribes, decendants of Huns). 
 
Quote
 
and the lest goes on and on. As much as we like to talk about it the more we get confussed it can be very easy for Turkics to claim the northern Huns of central Asia, but what about south? Central Asia is a big region and never from a single race/ethnics.
 
 
Confusion is made by people themselves, not the facts. Nomadic groups were classified according to their culture (language, custom, religion etc), not according to their race.
 
Quote  
Like for example the "Hephthalites" so called the "Indo-European" or Iranian looking, were they huns? or those the name was just flown to them.
 
They were called White Huns by Indians, Yetai by Chinese, and classified as one of the Tura tribes, in turn the decendants of the Huns. 
 
Quote  
We can say even the word HUN and their background race is uncertain. So why do we have people mixing things up. Offcourse no-Offense to my dear fellow Turks or pro-Hunnics. If there is any new information that proves certains questions then please share it with me.
 
 
Back ground race? What is this term? Nomadic people might have started mixing before any of the historical records, seperation of language groups, development of distinct cultures. 
 
What we know according to the writen records is: mordern Turkic people are decendants of Tura tribes in turn decendants of Huns.  
 
Quote
My first question how does that map above with i disagree with supports that real huns were from Mongolia and if they were. What prove do we have that they reached Iran.

I think I have answered this question already. White Huns (Yetai) was one of the Tura tribes. Tura were the decendants of the Huns. I'm pretty sure White Huns reached Iran.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonny Starcraft Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2007 at 16:02
Originally posted by Xiongnu Hun Xiongnu Hun wrote:

I forgot my username and passwordOuch.I remembered username afer a new membership but still don't know the password =).
Everybody here!I am Huncuk =)Thumbs%20Up.An ı changed my nicname to Xiongnu Kün,huncuk was meaning hunling =).I am better with a greater nickname!


LOLSo we are all HUNs, even John Puaul II - His real Surname (Wojtyła) it's spelled originaly Voy(tila). At(tila). The Attila's camp was in Hungary and  Hungarians have most of that kinds of surnames. Mayby if we compare first parts of that surnames to Turkish words, we find a main meaning.


Edited by Jonny Starcraft - 14-Feb-2007 at 16:03
Kaczyński is the biggest LOSER. HiS handicapped clone too!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheMysticNomad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2007 at 05:31
Jonny Starcraft (cool nameCool)-
 
Wasn't John Paul II a Goral (Polish Mountaineer)?  In some other thread a local legend was mentioned about Gorals originally being a subgroup of the Huns.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tar Szerénd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2007 at 10:26
hi!
 
There is a valley in the swiss Alps, and the people there have "hunnish" legends (2there are the descendants of Attila's huns from the war in 451 ,hungarian style wooden works f.e. wooden crucifix etc. Oh, and a lot of them has a "hun mark", a brown area on their skin:-)
 
TSZ
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonardo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2007 at 03:27
Tar Szerénd, you can find wooden crucifix all over the Alps ...
 
 
 


Edited by Leonardo - 18-Feb-2007 at 14:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Onogur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2007 at 14:33
Hey,
 
I have just registered to this forum and have spent hours browsing through the topics... interesting....Smile
 
About the Huns... as some of you say, there are almost no records about where exactly they came from and why so suddenly. By the way... I have heart that Chiniese have some ancient documents that can explain a lot about the Huns but they have not been translated yet. Any ideas why?!
 
What I know about the Huns for sure is that they did not came from "nowhere" and after that disappeared. What I know is that the "Hun" is the short name given to the Hunnic Military Alliance, which consisted of hundreds, yes, hundreds of different tribes with different origin (Altic, Turkic and Iranian).
 
Btw: I know more about the origin of Bulgars, who were a huge part of the alliance. The traces go back to the surroundings of mountain Pamir or Pamyr (not sure how to spell it in English), Central Asia, 2000 BC. And as an example... Bulgars were not called Bulgars until 5th-6th century: they were several peoples of similar origin - Kutrigurs, Onogondurs, Utrigurs, etc. The word "Bulgar" means "Mixed", a mix between these tribes.
 
I can not tell when and why exactly the nomadic peoples in middle Asia started their migration to the west, but I suppose that it was not organised but chaotic. A nation after nation, and a tribe after tribe either joined the wave or were wiped out. The great achievment of Atila (or Avitokhol) was that he united and organised the wave.
 
According to the different origin of the people in the Hunnic Military Alliance, I suppose, that they looked different from each other. The largest part consisted of Turkic and Iranian people, so most of the Huns looked pretty much european. I have met several times the term "White" or "Silver" Huns, regarding Bulgars, Sarmantians and Hazars or Khazars.
 
The Huns did not disappear without a trace too. I am pretty sure that almost every person in Europe and the western part of Asia has hunnic gens. Also, there are several countries founed by the descendents of the Huns. Some of them are still on the map. Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2007 at 16:54
Originally posted by Onogur Onogur wrote:

Hey,
 
I have just registered to this forum and have spent hours browsing through the topics... interesting....Smile
 
Welcome to the forum, Onogur. Glad you have found here interesting.
 
Quote
About the Huns... as some of you say, there are almost no records about where exactly they came from and why so suddenly. By the way... I have heart that Chiniese have some ancient documents that can explain a lot about the Huns but they have not been translated yet. Any ideas why?!
 
 
Yes, there are many records about Huns in Chinese hisory. Ass Han Dynasty and Hun empire had a very long conflict. However, the Han historical records started from Si Maqian During Han period (~100 AD), so before that period, they mainly based on the legends. Anyway, according to the Hanshu, Xiongnu Zhuan:
 
" 匈奴,其先夏后氏之苗裔,曰淳维。"
 
"Xiongnu (Hun) is the decendant of Xia (first Chinese kingdom), also called Chunwei (Kunyi). "
 
Meaning their original land was the north of present day China and further north. Their history can be traced back to ~1700 BC or more. Since very early time, They had many major wars with later Chinese kindoms (Yin, Zhou, Qin etc), some times they won and sometimes they were defeated.  However as stated below:

"自淳维以至头曼千有余岁,时大时小,别散分离,尚矣,其世传不可得而次。然至冒顿,而匈奴最强大,尽服从北夷,而南与诸夏为敌国,其世姓官号可得而记云。 "
 
"Since Chunwei to Toman (first Emperor of Hun Empire, ~220 BC) there was more than 1000 years, sometimes big, sometimes small, dispersed, their history can't be known. But When it was the time of Maodun (Batur, the son of Toman, ~209 BC), Huns were the most strongest, all the nothern lands were conquered, and they made the other Xia kingdoms in the south as enemies. Their names, titles are well known."
 
Since then we have quite full record about the History of Huns. Their emperors' beautiful letters writen to the kings of Han, etc.

 
Quote  
What I know about the Huns for sure is that they did not came from "nowhere" and after that disappeared. What I know is that the "Hun" is the short name given to the Hunnic Military Alliance, which consisted of hundreds, yes, hundreds of different tribes with different origin (Altic, Turkic and Iranian).
 
 
Indeed, when Huns made the first empire duirng Batur Tenriqut (Maodun tengli hutu Chan yu) they conquered a vast land from Korea in the east to the Caspian sea in the west in the greatest extent. And the empire lasted more than four hundred years. They have definately included many ethnicities.  Do you mean Tungustic by Altaic? As Turkic is part of Altaic. Or IMO, Altaic is only Turkic.  
 
 
Quote
Btw: I know more about the origin of Bulgars, who were a huge part of the alliance. The traces go back to the surroundings of mountain Pamir or Pamyr (not sure how to spell it in English), Central Asia, 2000 BC. And as an example... Bulgars were not called Bulgars until 5th-6th century: they were several peoples of similar origin - Kutrigurs, Onogondurs, Utrigurs, etc. The word "Bulgar" means "Mixed", a mix between these tribes.
 
 
 
As we know from the history that oghur tribes were the decendants of the Huns, and Huns history can be traced back to at least 1700BC,  that makes sense, but i think it shouldn't be Pamir, Tenri mountains and Altai mountains. Any way, Pamir is the western strech of Tengri mountains.
 
 
Quote
I can not tell when and why exactly the nomadic peoples in middle Asia started their migration to the west, but I suppose that it was not organised but chaotic. A nation after nation, and a tribe after tribe either joined the wave or were wiped out. The great achievment of Atila (or Avitokhol) was that he united and organised the wave.
 
 
 
I think it had started very very early, and it's not only from east to the west direction. Main reason should be conflict and defeat. Attila was a great leader,as he managed to unite many groups of different background.
 
 
Quote
According to the different origin of the people in the Hunnic Military Alliance, I suppose, that they looked different from each other. The largest part consisted of Turkic and Iranian people, so most of the Huns looked pretty much european. I have met several times the term "White" or "Silver" Huns, regarding Bulgars, Sarmantians and Hazars or Khazars.
 
 
 
It is interesting, as we only know the Ephtalites in Afghanistan was known as white Huns. However, I did read somewhere the Hazars had two groups one is white Hazars and the other is black Hazar.
 
 
Quote
The Huns did not disappear without a trace too. I am pretty sure that almost every person in Europe and the western part of Asia has hunnic gens. Also, there are several countries founed by the descendents of the Huns. Some of them are still on the map. Wink
 
In Europe, at least the onoghur tribes appeared after the collapse of Attilla's empire.  And in the east, we have following Chinese record (Xin Tang shu, Huihu Zhuan) :
 
"回纥,其先匈奴也,俗多乘高轮车,元魏时亦号高车部,或曰敕勒,讹为铁勒。其部落曰袁纥、薛延陀、契苾羽、都播、骨利干、多览葛、仆骨、拔野古、同罗、浑、思结、斛薛、奚结、阿跌、白,凡十有五种,皆散处碛北。"
 
"Huihe (Uyghur), their ancestors were Xiongnu (Hun), they used high carts, so during yuanwei, also called Gaoche, or Chile, Tiele (Tura). Their tribes are : Yuan he (Oghuz), Xueyantuo (Sirtardush), Qiebiyu (Chibni), Dubo (Tuba?), Guligan (Gulghan), Dolange (Tilenggut), Bugu (Bulghor?), Bayegu (Bayeghur), Tongluo (Tonro), Hun (Hun), Sijie (izgil),  Huxue (Qoghursur), Xijie (Qomuq?), Adie (Adiz), Baisa (Baisar), fifteen tribes, they all scattered in the north."   
 
This is the early tribal composition of eastern Tura tribes, there were later tribal formation, from which at least we can see Hun decendants continued their legacy continuosly in the history. 
 
They built Uyghur empire after kok-Turk (Tujue) empire (which was also the part of Huns). Uyghur empire militarily and culturally strongly influenced one of the greatest Chinese empire - Tang.
 
BTW, Uyghur means Uy-oghur, the alliances of Oghurs. (and among later formation, there were Onuyghur tribes).
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Onogur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2007 at 08:53
Thank you very much for the information.... very nice of you, barbar!
 
I have one more question.... were avars, khazars and bulgars same people? I mean same people in three different khaganats/empires?
I ask that, because it is confusing.... all these wars between them and in the same time, they had the same language, the same montheistic religion (worshiping Tangra), all claimed to be descendents of Attila, and mainly - they had the same ruling dynasties. For example.... the Bulgars khans were from Dulo clan from the very beginning until mid 8th century, and the Avars had the same ruling clan in different periods until the collapse of their khaganat. To the east, the ruling clan or family of the Khazars was Ashina... both Ashina and Dulo are considered to be related, but looks like that they hated each other and fought almost all the time.
 
Btw, barbar, what part of Italy are you from? Have you heart of Alcek?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Xiongnu Hun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2007 at 11:12
They were same people.But Avars were more a confederation than other Turkic peoples ı think.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Onogur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2007 at 21:15
Too bad they were not united under one flag! Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Feb-2007 at 06:44
Originally posted by Onogur Onogur wrote:

Thank you very much for the information.... very nice of you, barbar!
 
I have one more question.... were avars, khazars and bulgars same people? I mean same people in three different khaganats/empires?
I ask that, because it is confusing.... all these wars between them and in the same time, they had the same language, the same montheistic religion (worshiping Tangra), all claimed to be descendents of Attila, and mainly - they had the same ruling dynasties. For example.... the Bulgars khans were from Dulo clan from the very beginning until mid 8th century, and the Avars had the same ruling clan in different periods until the collapse of their khaganat. To the east, the ruling clan or family of the Khazars was Ashina... both Ashina and Dulo are considered to be related, but looks like that they hated each other and fought almost all the time.
 
Btw, barbar, what part of Italy are you from? Have you heart of Alcek?
 
Sorry for this late reply onogur.
 
First of all, the wars between same nomadic groups were very common in the history. Whenever they got a strong leader then they could get united, otherwise they usually form smaller tribal unity, and due to the same life style, they had more direct conflict with each other as for the land and power.  The spirit of freedom is deeply rooted in nomadic people's culture. So fighting and rebelling agaist conquest could last for centuries.
 
Bulghar as we have noted composed mainly of many Oghur tribes (Qutoghur, Utoghur, Onoghur, Saroghur etc), They were the one of the earliest Turkic groups who migrated to the west after the collaps of Xiongnu (Hun) Empire. 
 
Then we had Shianpei (Tungustic) who absorbed large number of remnant Huns and built Shianpei empire in eastern steppe during Tanshikuy. However this empire didn't last long. One of the later Shianpei (Touba) moved south, unified and built a Chinese dynasty (Wei or nothern Wei).
 
Then came the Rouran empire period in the eastern steppe. Rouruans according to Wei history were Hunnic in nature,  but the ruling class were the same as Shianpei.
 
Gok-turk (another type of Huns) overthrew Rouran and forced them to move to the west.This group were known as Uar or Avar, which historians make the link.   Gok-turk ruled over both eastern and western steppe. So they had to move further west to become a threat to the Bulghars there.  So came this conflict. However, Avars had absorped large number of Oghur tribes and Slavic tribes.
 
After the collaps of western Gok-turk empire, some royal (Ashina) group moved west due to internal power conflict, and they were known to be Hazars. At that time, Avar had already vanished from the political world after the defeat by eastern Roman empire.  
 
So these three groups moved to the west one after another, it is quite natural they fought with each other for land and power to survive.
 
BTW, I'm not Italian, it is only my current location. I'm Uyghur. I'll be interested if you can tell me something about 'Alcek'.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Either make a history or become a history.
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