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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Onogur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 00:36

Thank you, barbar!

Please, take a look at this link:
 
About the name "Ashina". I have read that its roots come from the name of a certain ruling family/clan. Is that right? And also... aren't ancient Uyghurs related to Bulgars in some way?!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2007 at 05:24
Thanks for the link, Onogur, that's interesting.
 
Yes, Ashina was the Royal clan of Kok-Turks (Tujue). Tujue originally was composed of ten tribes, and Ashina was one of them, which built the Kok-Turk empire.  Tujue is another type of Huns (Xiongnu).
 
As for the relationship between Uyghurs and Bulghars, common belief is that Uyghurs were Uy-Oghurs, the alliances of Oghur tribes, who were the decendants of Huns (Xiongnu) remained in the original land. While the ancients Bulghar tribes were the Oghur tribes who moved to the west after the collaps of Hun (Xiongnu) empire. 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Onogur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2007 at 20:32
Nice... Smile
 
Very "contactual" people were Oghurs!Wink
 
About the Uyghurs... is their population mainly in China now? Do they still keep their own ancient traditions and habits or they are generally assimilated already?!
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Onogur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2007 at 20:48

And something else to help me complete the picture:

What is common between Oghurs or Hunu and Mongols? Where is the truth?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 06:35
Originally posted by Onogur Onogur wrote:

Nice... Smile
 
Very "contactual" people were Oghurs!Wink
 
About the Uyghurs... is their population mainly in China now? Do they still keep their own ancient traditions and habits or they are generally assimilated already?!
 
 
 
They we are mainly in China, there are some big groups in Qazaqistan and Qirghizistan. The Uyghurs in Uzbekistan became Uzbeks, as these two groups are almost identical.
 
The Chinese hasn't managed to assimiliate Uyghurs yet. Religiously Uyghurs were Moslims. So It's quite common for them to intermarry with Qazaqs and other Moslim groups, but not with Chinese. Historically and culturally, Uyghurs are very proud of their achievments, so they never looked up Chinese culture.  Chinese reached their cultural hight in Tang Dynasty, and it was this time when Tang adopted Uyghur culture in many aspects. Uyghur music, drawing, fashion etc became popular even in Tang capital according to Chinese poets.     
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 06:45
Originally posted by Onogur Onogur wrote:

And something else to help me complete the picture:

What is common between Oghurs or Hunu and Mongols? Where is the truth?
 
According to the Chinese chronicles, Oghur (Oghuz) tribes (Tiele tribes)were the decendants of the Huns.
 
Ancient Mongols were the decendants of Shiwei, in turn of Xianbei, in turn of Donghu.
 
Huns drove Donghu to the east, and they intermingled with local people (Tungustic) there, and formed two groups: Xianbei and Wuhuan.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JuMong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2007 at 23:47
I don't know how accurate this is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huns
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheMysticNomad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2007 at 06:38
JuMong-
 
I went to your link and read the article.  It did not seem to be very well-written.  The Wiki article on the Xiongnu is much better.  It presents some compelling recent evidence that seems to bolster the theory that the western Xiongnu became the European Huns.  In particular, it mentions the fact that in a newly discovered Bactrian source, which itself is a translation of a Chinese source, the name Xiongnu was translated as Huna.  It also mentions a Byzantine document listing early Bulgarian rulers as being descended from Mao Tun (of the Xiongnu) and Erlakh (Attila's son).  The fact that Hun and Xiongnu cauldrons are almost indentical is also mentioned.
 
Interesting stuff on Wikipedia, that's for sure.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mordoth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Mar-2007 at 14:31
That is a great spectacular article .
 
We are the descent of Huns , no problem with that .

But i say that ; Hunnic immigration left 2 Empires seperated into two pieces .
 
A dynasty was the Roman Empire , the second one was heirs of Huns ; Sien-Pi dynasty . 
And i could proclaim that ; Gokturks ( Koktoruks  , Goktureiks whatever you wish to call ) were Hunnic like Mongolians .

I do not know what is your perception about my fortunate ideas . I 've always evaluated & remembered Finnic and Magyaric ( Hungarian )  people as my Brothers . They truely have a bondage with the Turks . ( I did not mean their linguistic sections , their genes )
 
And I call them Turanic people as well .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Xiongnu Hun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Mar-2007 at 14:40
Mongolians are not Hunnic,
We can say: Xiongnu-Turks,Xianbei-Mongols
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mordoth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Mar-2007 at 14:42
Mongolians are Turanic , and they are also Hunnic people who shared their culture with us.
 
And i indeed assumed that Mongolian was a modified form of one of 13 Turkish dialectS ;)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote huns Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2007 at 18:51
Hello ppl Big%20smile
 
You like a fantasy ? Clap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote huns Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2007 at 19:17
Originally posted by barbar barbar wrote:

Then we had Shianpei (Tungustic) who absorbed large number of remnant Huns and built Shianpei empire in eastern steppe during Tanshikuy. However this empire didn't last long. One of the later Shianpei (Touba) moved south, unified and built a Chinese dynasty (Wei or nothern Wei).
 
Gok-turk (another type of Huns) overthrew Rouran and forced them to move to the west.This group were known as Uar or Avar, which historians make the link.   Gok-turk ruled over both eastern and western steppe. So they had to move further west to become a threat to the Bulghars there.  So came this conflict. However, Avars had absorped large number of Oghur tribes and Slavic tribes.
 
After the collaps of western Gok-turk empire, some royal (Ashina) group moved west due to internal power conflict, and they were known to be Hazars. At that time, Avar had already vanished from the political world after the defeat by eastern Roman empire.  
 
I have 4 question:
 
1) Translate me please Huns words "touba" and "wei" from Uygur !
 
2)Gok-turk (another type of Huns) --This your opinion?
 
3)inf., for u....... avars live in Dagestan ! How you can be avars if If you Uygur ????????
 
4)Translate a word "Hazar" from turc language ! plzzzz


Edited by huns - 10-Apr-2007 at 19:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2007 at 10:51
Originally posted by huns huns wrote:

 
I have 4 question:
 
1) Translate me please Huns words "touba" and "wei" from Uygur !
 
 
Why do you think these two words are Hunnic? AFAIK, "Wei" is Chinese word for the "Tuoba Xianbei" kingdom in China. Tuoba in Turkish form is "Tawghach", in Orhun Monuments, you can see the term used for the Tang dynasty as for them Tang rulers are the decendants of Touba. The meaning in Uyghur is "affiliated". Tawghach Bughrahan was used during Qarahanid period.
 
Quote
2)Gok-turk (another type of Huns) --This your opinion?
 
No, check the following record from Beishi, J99:
 
"突厥者,其先居西海之右,独为部落,盖匈奴之别种也。姓阿史那氏。"
 
Translation:
 
Tujue, ancestors lived in the right side of western sea, itself is a tribe, all are the another type of Xiongnu (Huns), family name is Ashina.
 
Quote
3)inf., for u....... avars live in Dagestan ! How you can be avars if If you Uygur ????????
 
I didn't understand your question well. Anyway, Avars were linked with Rouruan. Rouruan were Hunnic in nature (according to weishu). Uyghurs were also the decendants of Huns (according to many historical records).
Is this what you want to know?
 
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4)Translate a word "Hazar" from turc language ! plzzzz
 
There was a tribe with the name Hazar among Toqquz Oghuz-On Uyghur confederacy. They were considered to be the the eastern remnant tribes of the Hazars of the west. In Turkic, Hazar means  Ghuzer. Ghuz=Oghuz=Oghur=Ghur, Er means "man". You can also find this type of tribal nomination among European Huns, such as Angisciri, in the form of "ir".
 
 
 
  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2007 at 13:49
Hi Barbar, hi Huns. 'Hazar' does not mean 'Ghuz Er'. You can't break the stable Turkic sound system easily. If it's 'u' without umlaut, so for sure, the last part would be 'ar' (and not er) which shows a future tense verb which will be done by the subject, in this case, or 'aq' which is similar to 'ar' in use and meaning. Or if it's ü(umlaut), so the first consonant wouldn't be 'q', it would be 'k'. We know 'q' could be changed into 'h', but not 'k'.

The word 'Oghuz' in Turkmen (as an Oghuz language) is "oq(tribe)+z(makes plural)=tribes". 9 Oghuz never called themselves "Ghuz". In our vocabulary, "ghuz" is a verb, unlike "Oghuz" which is a noun. It's just an abbreviatin form Moslem historians (mostly Arabs) used, but not Turkmens themselves.

Edited by gok_toruk - 16-Apr-2007 at 14:13
Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2007 at 13:58
I've got a question Barbar. Do Uighurs use the Altaic suffix 'ghur/ghyr,gür/gyr'?

I've noted you point out the word "Uighur" is "Ui+Oghuz". You might be right when talking about 'Ui" which means to "join". But "ghur" is not the shortened form of "Oghuz".

It's just like Turkic words 'alghyr' (al+ghyr), 'sylgyr' (syl+gyr), özgür(öz+gür) and now, this is 'uighur' (ui+ghur).

Could you please tell me if you know of the suffix 'ghur' and its equivalents? Maybe in the old Uighur texts?

Edited by gok_toruk - 16-Apr-2007 at 14:16
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2007 at 15:13
Hazar means wanderer in Turkic modernday Turkish is Gezer
I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Apr-2007 at 10:21
Originally posted by gok_toruk gok_toruk wrote:

Hi Barbar, hi Huns. 'Hazar' does not mean 'Ghuz Er'. You can't break the stable Turkic sound system easily. If it's 'u' without umlaut, so for sure, the last part would be 'ar' (and not er) which shows a future tense verb which will be done by the subject, in this case, or 'aq' which is similar to 'ar' in use and meaning. Or if it's ü(umlaut), so the first consonant wouldn't be 'q', it would be 'k'. We know 'q' could be changed into 'h', but not 'k'.
 
Turkic gloatal "gh" can be naturally pronounced as "h" or "g" by others. Almost all "q" changed into "k" in anatolian Turkish.  BTW, what does "Hazar" mean in your opinion?
Quote
The word 'Oghuz' in Turkmen (as an Oghuz language) is "oq(tribe)+z(makes plural)=tribes". 9 Oghuz never called themselves "Ghuz". In our vocabulary, "ghuz" is a verb, unlike "Oghuz" which is a noun. It's just an abbreviatin form Moslem historians (mostly Arabs) used, but not Turkmens themselves.
 
I don't support the Oq+z theory.   Oghuz is widely accepted "z" Turkic variant of early "r" Turkic.  So the earlier Turkic form was "Oghur". the sound "o" in Oghuz or Oghur is not that stable when comes with prefix, and tends to be swallowed, hence came the respective terms "Ghuz" or "Ghur". 
 
What's the meaning of "ghuz" as a verb in Turkman? As in Uyghur, we don't have this verb. However, we have suffix to add after the verb.
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Apr-2007 at 10:48
Originally posted by gok_toruk gok_toruk wrote:

I've got a question Barbar. Do Uighurs use the Altaic suffix 'ghur/ghyr,gür/gyr'?

I've noted you point out the word "Uighur" is "Ui+Oghuz". You might be right when talking about 'Ui" which means to "join". But "ghur" is not the shortened form of "Oghuz".

It's just like Turkic words 'alghyr' (al+ghyr), 'sylgyr' (syl+gyr), özgür(öz+gür) and now, this is 'uighur' (ui+ghur).

Could you please tell me if you know of the suffix 'ghur' and its equivalents? Maybe in the old Uighur texts?
 
Yes, we use all of the above suffix. we also use the suffix "Ghuz".  "Ghu(r)"  is something that does a specific job.
 
Musical instrument: Chalghu(r)
Washing machine: Kir alghu(r)
 
but it has other forms such as Qu(r) etc. eg: Chatqu
 
Ghuz is imperitive form of  a verb in passive term:
 
Kiyimini salghuz (make some one take off the cloth)
 
it also has other forms such as Quz etc. eg: Atquz
 
 
 
As I have pointed out earlier, Uyghur is Uy-Oghur. As y is semi vowel, O is very easy to disappear. Not only this fact, many of the Uyghur tribes had the same Oghur composition in their names: Qutoghur,  bayoghur etc.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Apr-2007 at 14:20
 


Edited by gok_toruk - 18-Apr-2007 at 15:15
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