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Forum LockedHow would albanian sound to a non-ethnic?

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Arbėr Z View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arbėr Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2006 at 05:37

I am not saying that there is no latin influence in albanian, sometimes this language is clasified as partially latinised. But some words, like padulem-pyll, probably are just sharing the same IE root, like Coch (Welsh red) with Kuq (Alb red). And remember, the latin itself was affected hardly by the other italic languages, like the ethruscan, the oscan, the venete, the messapian, the Japyggian etc. If we accept that some of this shared at least some similarities with illyrian...you get itWink

Regerding Eqerem Cabej, firstly you should know that in albania it never existed a cultural gap between south and north, and he studied gheg dialects for most of his life, as it is known that the gheg has a more archaic form, and the tosk was developed later. But the gheg and the tosk separated later, for example in the southern italian community of the Arbereshe, which are supposed to be tosk emigrants, we find also many charachteristics of the gheg language. This phenomena happens also in the arvanite comunity of greece, which logically should be the extreme of the tosk dialects.
 
I'a dhashe librin atij - Tosk
I'a dhash' librin atij - Gheg
 
As you see there are not much differences, are thereWink
 
Almost six centuries ago the archbishop of Durres, Pal Engjelli (Paulus Angelus, Pavlo Angelos) wrote the first words in albanian gheg, it was a baptism formula
 
un te paghesonh pr' emenit atit birit et spirtit senit
 
In standard albanian that would be
 
une te pagezoj per emer te atit, birit e te shpirtit te shenjte
 
In tosk that would be
 
Un te pagezonj per emer te atit, birit e te shpirtit te shenjte
 
In gheg
 
Un t'pagzoj per emen te atit, birit e te shpirtit t'shejt
Believe me, I can speak and understand fluently many of the tosk and gheg variances, there are not much differences between tosk and gheg, if you want you can give me a longer text to translate in both languages. And just for your info, it is true that the standard language probably took more from the tosk, but it took also parts of the gheg dialect, and anyway, it is a standard language, it is used only in the medias and in the offices. The tosk is easier to pronunciate (phonetically) while the gheg has at least 140 sounds (phonemes) that you should be able to pronounce if you want to speak it. It is as easy as that, there is no complote insideLOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brunodam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2006 at 10:53
After WWII (in the fifties) there were proposals in the international scholar community to classify OFFICIALLY the Albanian language as "partially neo-latin".  Guess who strongly opposed this?Wink
Yes, your guess is right.......Hoxha found in his "argirocaster friend" Cabej the right person to sabotage the proposal. 
Anyway, the forum is about  "how would albanian sound to a non-ethnic?".  My answer is clear: as said before the sound reminds me the SOUTHERN ITALIAN ACCENT
I believe you are albanian speaking, but if you talk to an italian from Bari or Naples in his dialect (not in the italian language) you'll remain astonished by the similarities of the accent.  In many cases the sound is the same.  For example: the pronunciation of some numbers.
1 = one(english) = uno (italian) = 'no (southern italian dialect)
2=  two (")          = due (")         = duie  (")
3 = three (")        = tre  (")         = trie    (") 
and so on to 7,8,9 said "schiette, eitte, ninnnete" in Neapolitan/barese.
Looks familiar to you albanian?
Bruno

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arbėr Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2006 at 12:01
Bruno, of course it looks familiar to me. But do not forget that there is also an albanian presence in the southern italy. I believe the parts should have interacted linguistically...and regarding the Hoxha, he is dead now, why the internationall scientific comunity is not classifying albanian as partially neo-latin??Have you ever read any work of Cabej, or are you just using some propaganda stereotypes(everything which happened during communism was mean and evil?).
 
Ok, I know very well albanian, as well as italian (at least 3 dialects) and french. I have some knowledge of spanish and romanian. I suppose so do you. I ll post here a short text in albanian, waiting for your comparative rationale analysis.
 
Shqipja eshte nje gjuhe e vecante, e cila megjithese ka huazuar shume fjale nga gjuhet e tjera te popujve fqinje, mbetet krejtesisht e ndryshme, pasi trungu dhe perberja kryesore eshte vendase. Padyshim qe paraardhes te shqiptareve te sotem jane arberit ose arbereshet, nderkohe qe po te shkojme dhe me ne lashtesi, keta quheshin ilire. Kultura tradicionale, zakonet, kenget e vallet si dhe veshjet e trasheguara nga te paret tane jane teper te lashta, dhe pasqyrojne nje kulture mijera-vjecare, ashtu sic verteton dhe arkeologjia me zbulimet e saj te pafundme ne trevat ku historikisht ka jetuar ky komb i vogel, por i forte ne ruajtjen e vlerave te tij.
 
I believe you can easily understand which of the words have a latin origin, and you can compare also the sintaxe and the morphologie of the entire phrase to the relative in neo-latin languages...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GoldenBlood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2006 at 12:39

from evropian linguists proved that Albanian language is olddest than Latin language (because Albanian language was formed as a language at an earlier)...and of course Albanian language have Latin words but Latin language have little Albanian (or Illyrian) Words too...



Edited by GoldenBlood - 03-Sep-2006 at 12:40
Kosova dhe Ilirida, pjese te Dardanise
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brunodam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2006 at 18:04
Mainly because of the Cabej's linguistic works the Albanian language was (and is) not officially called a partial neo-latin language.
Cabej distinguished himself in the study of the autochtony of the Albanian people and the origins of the albanian language in masterworks like "Etymological studies in the Albanian field", "Introduction to the history of the albanian language", "The spelling rules of the albanian language", etc..  He worked even with A. Xhuvani (University of Athens) in the creation of the "Prefixes and Suffixes of the Albanian language" in 1962, a fundamental book in the field of word-formation in the Albanian language.
"The spelling dictionary" of prof. Cabej heavily influenced the famous Congress on Orthography of the Albanian language held in Tirana in 1972 (the so called congress of the unification of the national albanian language). In this congress was created the "Unified national literary (STANDARD) language" of the Albanian people in the world. The result of the influence of Cabej: the Standard language was mostly based on the literary variant of the south (Tosk), mainly for the phonetic system, even if there are some secundary elements from the Ghego of the north. 
Under the Hoxha regime it was impossible to "survive" without looking eastward in everything: the main critic to prof. Cabej in the international scholar community is his lack of impartiality toward the western languages.
And I am not talking of ridiculous propaganda stereotypes!!
 
Finally, allow me to write a LAST opinion:
All the languages evolve..in the last two centuries the albanian language has benefited from the end of the Turkish empire (without this end, may be the albanian language was going to finish like the greek language in contemporary anatolia), so let's get ready for the entrance of the albanian language in the European Union and LET'S EVOLVE LINGUISTICALLY TOGHETER.Thumbs Up Bruno

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arbėr Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2006 at 18:47
Mainly because of the Cabej's linguistic works the Albanian language was (and is) not officially called a partial neo-latin language.
 
This is somehow true, but the main cause is the albanian language itselfWink
 
Cabej distinguished himself in the study of the autochtony of the Albanian people and the origins of the albanian language in masterworks like "Etymological studies in the Albanian field", "Introduction to the history of the albanian language", "The spelling rules of the albanian language", etc.. 
 
The books you mention are very good works, and the author, as you say, was a distinuished studious. He studied in western europe (Wienna etc). And he started his scientific work before of the communist regime. His opera is now open to the critics, but apparently it still stands...
 
He worked even with A. Xhuvani (University of Athens) in the creation of the "Prefixes and Suffixes of the Albanian language" in 1962, a fundamental book in the field of word-formation in the Albanian language.
 
Prof. Eqerem Cabej, and Prof. Aleksander Xhuvani were two of the most known albanologues of the albanian academy of sciences. They didnt have the chance to work for the athens university...
 
  "The spelling dictionary" of prof. Cabej heavily influenced the famous Congress on Orthography of the Albanian language held in Tirana in 1972 (the so called congress of the unification of the national albanian language). In this congress was created the "Unified national literary (STANDARD) language" of the Albanian people in the world. The result of the influence of Cabej: the Standard language was mostly based on the literary variant of the south (Tosk), mainly for the phonetic system, even if there are some secundary elements from the Ghego of the north. 
 
As i already told you, the standard language was created on other criteria. Just for your info, it was not used the Gjirokastra Tosk, of Enver Hoxha. The leader himself couldnt speak in the standard language, and couldnt pronounce the Y, one of the letters of the alphabet, because in his dialect it didnt exist. The basis of he standard language was the northern tosk dialect of Berat, and the southern gheg if Elbasan. This was because the language had to be easy phonetically and grammatically. The tosk has 7 or 8 different regional dialects, and the gheg has more than 20 regional dialects. But they choosed what they found easier to pronunce. In my opinion the albanian standard language should be enriched with words from all the dialects, especially the gheg, cause it has some words of a very ancient origin, which it would be good to preserve.
 
Under the Hoxha regime it was impossible to "survive" without looking eastward in everything: the main critic to prof. Cabej in the international scholar community is his lack of impartiality toward the western languages.
And I am not talking of ridiculous propaganda stereotypes!!
 
Ok, but please explain me what does tosk have to do with the east and gheg with the west???? The albanians of Kosova never were under the Hoxha regime, and even though they are 100% gheg, and have several dialects, they opted to use the standard language, which they still use. Nobody forced them actually for the ex-yougoslavia it would be better if they had a different official language, but they used the standard. You can ask GoldenBlood, he is from Kosova, he is a Gheg for sure, and he speeks the dialect of the Gjilani region. But I certainly understand him in any word, and so does he. The words are the same, only the pronounce, the accent changes from region to region.
Believe me Bruno, there are not much differences between the dialects. It would be just like pugliese and calabrese, or like calabrese to siciliano.
 
Finally, allow me to write a LAST opinion:
All the languages evolve..in the last two centuries the albanian language has benefited from the end of the Turkish empire (without this end, may be the albanian language was going to finish like the greek language in contemporary anatolia), so let's get ready for the entrance of the albanian language in the European Union and LET'S EVOLVE LINGUISTICALLY TOGHETER.Thumbs Up Bruno
 
I do not believe that the albanian language could die because of the ottoman empire, the turks never settled here significantly. We were allowed to have our albanian pashas and governors, and even the soldiers were mostly albanians...
 
And Bruno, I dont' know why, but I think you have taken this debate personally...I have got nothing against you, in contrary, I am happy to find that somebody is interested in my language. I am proud to discuss it with you hereSmile
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brunodam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2006 at 22:12
Thank you, Arber, for your friendly invitation, but I have to travel for work and I cannot keep participating in this interesting Forum. 
Indeed, prof. Xhuvani graduated at the University of Athens and always maintained work relationship with his Alma Mater. 
The Turks (a very prolific people)were starting to settle in force in the Balkan peninsula in the nineteenth century: in other words they were starting to do what they did in the anatolian peninsula from the Middle Ages.... and by 1900 forty percent of the Balkan people were assimilated in the moslem religion! For example, just a few thousand Turks settled in what is now Macedonia before the Napoleonic wars, but in 1890 they already were 1/4 of the macedonian population!      Turks "assimilate" soon or later everybody: ask the moslem Kurds.......Wink
Ah, I forgot:   Italy and France were the western powers that promoted the creation of Albania from the Turkish empire.  As we can see from this old map of 1913 Greece wanted nearly all of central and south Albania, because the Greeks believed that in those areas there was a majority of Greek-speaking people!  Italians entered the WWI even because they were promised (under their leadership) a small Albanian state around Tirana, according to the secret Pact of London. Italy in those year has had a prime minister with albanian roots (from the albanian communities in southern Italy) who always promoted the close relationship between Italian and Albanian people.  Unfortunately in the next years appeared the Fascism with the italian nationalism and Albania was annexed to the Kingdom of Italy between 1939 and 1943.     This provoked the reaction against Italy (and the western world) of the communist Hoxha: when he took control of Albania he started to "erase" everything favorable to Italy that has been created before. Even the creation of an albanian language (based on the Gheg) with neo-latin characteristics, that has been supervised by the "Accademia Italiana della Lingua" during the fascist years. That is why the Hoxha regime created a standard albanian language based on the Tosk, full of Greek influences.  If Italy had won the war, Mussolini had promised to the Albanian fascist leaders the annexation to Albania of all Greek Epirus in his prospected conference of peace after WWII.
Anyway, Albania is not like Bulgaria or Serbia....it is only a few nautical miles from the Italian peninsula and has always been influenced by this proximity, EVEN LINGUISTICALLY. Only during the centuries of the Ottoman rule there was a break in this close relationship. As said before, there was a first influence/relationship during the Roman empire (the Japigi of Apulia were south illyrian) broken by the barbarian invasions of the middle ages, then the second one during the Renaissance Venetian republic, broken by the Turkish invasion, and now the third and actual influence/relationship with the creation of the Albanian state, future member of the Treaty of Rome (European Union). 
Greetings/Saluti/Saludos   Smile   Bruno
(sorry: I speak well only english, italian and spanish)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arbėr Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Sep-2006 at 07:55
Indeed, prof. Xhuvani graduated at the University of Athens and always maintained work relationship with his Alma Mater. 
 
Believe me Bruno, it was impossible to mantain a relationship with Athens during the times of communism. Between the two states there was a state of war.
 
The Turks (a very prolific people)were starting to settle in force in the Balkan peninsula in the nineteenth century: in other words they were starting to do what they did in the anatolian peninsula from the Middle Ages.... and by 1900 forty percent of the Balkan people were assimilated in the moslem religion!
 
80 % of the albanian population in the balkans converted into muslim, but this was not an asimilation. They preserved their culture, and even now they continue celebrating even christian holidays. They converted mostly for practical purposes, being a muslim provided them many rights. In the empire only the muslims were allowed to ride a horse and to keep the fire weapons. For the albanians both of these rights were indispensable, living in a hostile mountainous territory, and feeding their children mainly with the money that they won in the different wars.
 
Ah, I forgot:   Italy and France were the western powers that promoted the creation of Albania from the Turkish empire.  As we can see from this old map of 1913 Greece wanted nearly all of central and south Albania, because the Greeks believed that in those areas there was a majority of Greek-speaking people! 
 
Well, Italy wanted Vlora (Valona and the hinterland) as well as Durres (Durazzo) and Shkodra (Scutari). The greeks didnt believe that in those areas the people spoke greek language, Venizelos in the Versailles conference, when he was advocating for a greek northern epirus, he was asked about the albanian speaking majority and he answered that this was not a problem. The albanians were orthodoxe, mostly, and this made them greek, according to Venizelos, which added that in his country (Greece) albanian was already a very spread language, and the chief official of the greek military navy was albanian speaking. So he could manage the albanian speakers, but only the orthodoxes. You can find Venizelos speach in actae diplomatica. Fortunately enough, the albanian representatives (among them two distinguished albanian orthodoxes) showed that being an orthodoxe doesnt mean that you are a greek, and for an albanian nationality is first to the religion. The same hapened with Italy, which occupated Vlora and Sazan island (Valona e Sasseno), but the people rejected them and immediately rebelled.
 
Italians entered the WWI even because they were promised (under their leadership) a small Albanian state around Tirana, according to the secret Pact of London. Italy in those year has had a prime minister with albanian roots (from the albanian communities in southern Italy) who always promoted the close relationship between Italian and Albanian people.  Unfortunately in the next years appeared the Fascism with the italian nationalism and Albania was annexed to the Kingdom of Italy between 1939 and 1943.    
 
It is true, the prime minister Francesco Crispi was an "albanese d'Italia" fom Piana degli albanesi, in Sicilia. He was if I am not wrong, one of the ideators of the Italian-Albanian union.
 
This provoked the reaction against Italy (and the western world) of the communist Hoxha: when he took control of Albania he started to "erase" everything favorable to Italy that has been created before. Even the creation of an albanian language (based on the Gheg) with neo-latin characteristics, that has been supervised by the "Accademia Italiana della Lingua" during the fascist years. That is why the Hoxha regime created a standard albanian language based on the Tosk, full of Greek influences.  If Italy had won the war, Mussolini had promised to the Albanian fascist leaders the annexation to Albania of all Greek Epirus in his prospected conference of peace after WWII.
 
It was not only this the cause of the Hoxha's paranoia. If you study the history of the communist albania, you will find that Hoxha interrupted every relation with the communist Yougoslavia, and ten years later also with Russia. By the middle seventies he interrupted also the relation with china, and albania was totally isolated. Yougoslavia, russia and china were (and are) not western, but he still "eraded" everything favourable created before. He was afraid, a paranoiac. Albania never had true allies in the foreign policy, every state that approached the little country, tried to control it territorialy. The Italians wanted the coast, the greeks wanted the south, the Yugoslavians took Kosova and wanted more, The russians wanted the military base in the Otranto channel, which strategically could control all the mediterranean. The chinese wanted to use albania as their base in Europe...so I guess thats why also the people were convinced by the Hoxha policies, and didnt contrast him massively. Anyway, for our linguistical concern the gheg is far from disspearing. Some of the most distinguished albanian writers use that dialect for their opera, and most of the intellectuals master both dialects...
 
Anyway, Albania is not like Bulgaria or Serbia....it is only a few nautical miles from the Italian peninsula and has always been influenced by this proximity, EVEN LINGUISTICALLY. Only during the centuries of the Ottoman rule there was a break in this close relationship. As said before, there was a first influence/relationship during the Roman empire (the Japigi of Apulia were south illyrian) broken by the barbarian invasions of the middle ages, then the second one during the Renaissance Venetian republic, broken by the Turkish invasion, and now the third and actual influence/relationship with the creation of the Albanian state, future member of the Treaty of Rome (European Union). 
 
Of course albania has always been influenced from itally, and with no interruption, even during the turkish occupation. Albanian was, and is constantly inlfluenced also by the greek (as every other european language, and of course a bit more, due to neighboring). This is not bad, it is just interacting. But still, the albanian language preserves its main body, which is original in the lexicon, syntaxis and other linguistical aspects.
 
Anch'io la saluto, caro Bruno
Dhe une ju pershendes, i dashur Bruno
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maria d. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2006 at 23:39
Hi, I am from Bari and I agree with Bruno.  I have some albanese friends from Durazzo who are able to understand partially my barese dialect (and so I do when they talk slowly in their ghego dialect). I agree that the ghego is a partial neolatin language. It is true that he sound of the albanian language is similar to the one we have here in Bari. This is one of the reasons we Baresi (and the southern italians) like very much the Albanian people and, so, helped to create their State before WWI, as can be seen in the following map.               Maria D.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arbėr Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 18:46
Originally posted by maria d. maria d. wrote:

Hi, I am from Bari and I agree with Bruno.  I have some albanese friends from Durazzo who are able to understand partially my barese dialect (and so I do when they talk slowly in their ghego dialect). I agree that the ghego is a partial neolatin language. It is true that he sound of the albanian language is similar to the one we have here in Bari. This is one of the reasons we Baresi (and the southern italians) like very much the Albanian people and, so, helped to create their State before WWI, as can be seen in the following map.               Maria D.
 
Cara Maria (Italian)
E dashur Maria (alb.Tosk)
E dashtun Maria (alb.Gheg)
 
You should firstly know that your friends from Durazzo do not speak Gheg, cause in their city they actually use a mixture between gheg and tosk (same as in Tirana, where I live).And second, while it is true that many words have a latin origin, you would be never able to understand those, as they are very different from barese, or pugliese. I know both languages, and I am able to make a comparison. And in addendum, there are many more words which are of no latin origin, so I hardly believe yu can get the sense of the sentence. But, it is absolutely true, the albanian, tosk and gheg, share many syntaxicall similarities with the southern italian dialects. But not lexically, synthaxically, if you understand. The phrases are built in the same order, the syntaxe elements are similar.
 
Comunque, fa piacere discutere con gente come te (Italian)
Sidoqofte asht knaqsi me bisedu me nierez si ty (gheg)
Sidoqofte eshte kenaqesi te bisedosh me njerez si ty (tosk)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maria d. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 18:48
Yesterday I was talking with my albanian friends from Durazzo and they told me that their family is from the Scutari lake. They told me that for centuries, before the Turkish invasion of the Balkans, that area has been under the Venice republic and that this occupation has influenced their Ghego dialect.     I agree with them about the presence in my Barese dialect of some "roots" from the Japigi tribe, an illyrian population that lived in Apulia when the Romans conquered the region more than two thousand years ago: this facilitates my understanding of their dialect.      So, it is clear to me that there is a common linguistic "background" between the two sides of the gulf of Otranto.   And this is clearly present in the SOUND of the present day albanian language, mainly in the Ghego areas of Albany.  Indeed, I believe to be able to understand -if spoken very slowly- nearly 2/3 of the conversation in ghego of my Durazzo friends!    Maria D.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arbėr Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 19:03
Originally posted by maria d. maria d. wrote:

Yesterday I was talking with my albanian friends from Durazzo and they told me that their family is from the Scutari lake. They told me that for centuries, before the Turkish invasion of the Balkans, that area has been under the Venice republic and that this occupation has influenced their Ghego dialect.     I agree with them about the presence in my Barese dialect of some "roots" from the Japigi tribe, an illyrian population that lived in Apulia when the Romans conquered the region more than two thousand years ago: this facilitates my understanding of their dialect.      So, it is clear to me that there is a common linguistic "background" between the two sides of the gulf of Otranto.   And this is clearly present in the SOUND of the present day albanian language, mainly in the Ghego areas of Albany.  Indeed, I believe to be able to understand -if spoken very slowly- nearly 2/3 of the conversation in ghego of my Durazzo friends!    Maria D.
 
Dear Maria, if you would be able to understand 2/3 of the gheg dialect, then you would be able to understand 11/18 of the tosk (almost 2/3). And please, be careful when you agree with them on the illyrian origins, it is just a dangerous claim and you might get many greek forumers offending your opinion. The albanians appeared in the world only in the beginning of the XXI century. (Of course I am kidding)
 
Posting to you before I noticed how albanian tosk Njeri albanian gheg Nieri meaning both Human are very similar to the ancient greek  Aner meaning Man.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maria d. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 22:04
I agree with you about the "violent outbursts" of some forumers. I have read some forums with every kind of crazy commentaries, but this is typical of people living in the Balkans, where ethnicity and language are at the center of historical wars and massacres that escape the imagination of a westerner like me.
 
Anyway, if someone doubts about your Albanian past, I have borrowed from the Map forum the map of Albania around 1450 and I have posted it for you in this reply.
I have even copied the following Wikipedia section of the Albanian language about the latin roots in your beautiful language:
...."The name Tosk, Alb toskė, was borrowed from Venetian tosko "rough, crude", literally "Tuscan".
The trouble of a homeland for the Albanians becomes all the more problematic. Despite Albanian nationalist claims to the contrary, the Albanians almost certainly came from farther north and inland than would suggest the present borders of Albania. First, Albanian has few early Greek borrowings, and the very word for Greek, gėrk, was borrowed from South Slavic; cf. Bulg. grŭk, Serb-Croat gr"k. Similarly, the Illyrian coast is not a likely source since Albanian has no inherited nautical or indigenous sea-faring terminology, and has instead supplemented this absence with subsequent borrowing from Latin or Greek or recent metaphorical lexical creations. Also, Albanian is believed to be the source for a number of grammatical and lexical similarities shared by otherwise dissimilar languages including Romanian, Bulgarian, Serbo-Croatian, and to some extent Greek. Also, there is a lack of Proto-Albanian place names in Illyria. Likewise, the word shqa, from Lat Sclavus "Slav" refers only to Bulgarians.
Instead, given the overwhelming amount of shepherding and mountaineering vocabulary as well as the extensive influence of Latin, it is more likely the Albanians come from north of the Jireček line, on the Latin-speaking side, perhaps from the late Roman province of Dardania from the western Balkans. The Northern Albanian Alps are referred to as Bjeshkėt e Namena, and this region's name is believed by some to come from Proto-Albanian beškai tāi, giving Alb bjeshkė "mountain", borrowed ultimately from Vulgar Latin pastica "pasture".
Yet, one area in the late Roman province of Praevitana (modern northern Albania) seems to show an area where a primarily shepherding, transhumance population of Illyrians retained their culture. This area was based in the Mat district and the region of high mountains in Northern Albania, as well as in Dukagjin, Mirditė, and the mountains of Drin, from where the population would descend in the summer to the lowlands of western Albania, the Black Drin (Drin i zi) river valley, and into parts of Old Serbia. Indeed, the region's complete lack of Latin place names seems to imply little latinization of any kind and a more likely spot for the origin of Albanian.
The period in which Proto-Albanian and Latin interacted was protracted and drawn out over six centuries, 1st c. AD to 6th or 7th c. AD. This is born out into roughly three layers of borrowings, the largest number belonging to the second or middle layer. The first, with the fewest borrowings, was a time of less important interaction. The final period, probably preceding the Slavic or Germanic invasions, also has a notably smaller amount of borrowings. Each layer is characterized by a different treatment of most vowels, the first layer having several that follow the evolution of Early Proto-Albanian into Albanian; later layers reflect vowel changes indemic to Late Latin and presumably Proto-Romance. Other formative changes include the syncretism of several noun case endings, especially in the plural, as well as the largescale palatalization.........."
 
Finally, allow me to write that my Durazzo friends told me that the Gheg you write is the literary. But the albanian regional dialects are different and often not intelligible between themselves. They speak the Shkodra dialect, influenced by the Venetian domination and by the liturgical use of the Catholic religion.  They say that they cannot understand well some Tosk dialects from the Butrintum area next to Greece. But on the contrary they are able to understand half of the Bari dialect, because of its Japigi/Messapian roots.  For example, "mule" is said in barese "musso" and in ghego "mushk", "car" is said "vetura" like in ghego/albanian, and "king" is said in my dialect " mre" similarly to the ghego "mret".
Furthermore, the forum is about the "sound" of the albanian language, not the grammar and/or syntaxis. And I am talking of similarities in sound and vocabulary ONLY.   Bruno (referring to prof. Trifone) said that the Ghego vocabulary is 55% loanworded from the Latin, and I agree with him. But some regional dialect (like the one of my friends) have more percentage of latin roots. That is why I am able to understand aproximately 2/3 of them, but I am NOT able to understand the Tosk dialects (not the literary language) from other friends I have, who are from the Argirocaster area.
Cordialita'      Maria D.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maria d. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 22:10
Here it is the map of Skanderberg timesMaria D.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Patrinos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Oct-2006 at 12:33
Which is the percentage of foreign words in albanian vocabulary (latin, slavic,greek,turkish etc)?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote centurion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 10:29
Originally posted by Patrinos Patrinos wrote:

Which is the percentage of foreign words in albanian vocabulary (latin, slavic,greek,turkish etc)?
 
According to prof. Trifone (an italian scholar) :
55%   Latin
11%     Greek
8%     Slavic (serb, macedonian, montenegrin, bulgarian, etc.)
1%     Turkish
The remainig 25% is original Illyrian (with Dacian roots, etc..)
 
In the Gheg areas (mainly around the coastal zone of Skutar) the percentage of Latin is higher (around 70%)  and practically there is no presence of Greek vocabulary.
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GoldenBlood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2006 at 17:58
what funny :S

8% Slavic? wow this is hilarous...we have not slavic words (maybe 30-40 words)
Same with greek language 11%...hilarous
55% latin this is joke :D


Albanian language study thausands scholar evropian, american ect. they said Albanian language has only 12-13% (Latin,Turkish,Greek influence) and others 87-88% are albanian words...

if Albanian language had more 50% (non-albanian influences) evropian scholar didn't classify 1 on 8 Branch secluded of Indo-European...

Even some great evropian scholar Albanian classfied the olddest language of Europe and World
Kosova dhe Ilirida, pjese te Dardanise
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Theodore Felix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2006 at 18:19
I do not believe the percentage of latin is that high. I would say it would probably be around 40%(this is from personal experience with the language). The most significant aspect of the language, but it cannot be the vast majority of the language
8% slavic does sound reasonable indeed.(the further north in Albania you get I would assume the more slavic influence)
I do not know what to make of the 14% Greek influence. Maybe depending on the area. If measured by Tosk dialect of Tirana, I would say about right. But this is keeping in mind that Tirana dialect is vast majority Tosk.
Turkish has attributed some minor prefixes and suffixes, many of them today have fallen into local "slur" adjectives("Luk" is the best example).

Edited by Theodore Felix - 23-Oct-2006 at 18:21
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote centurion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2006 at 12:06
Originally posted by GoldenBlood GoldenBlood wrote:



if Albanian language had more 50% (non-albanian influences) evropian scholar didn't classify 1 on 8 Branch secluded of Indo-European...

 
 
The English language has more loanwords from Latin -directly or indirectly(through the French, Italian, Spanish, etc..) than Albanian.  This fact, that 58% of the English words are borrowed from Latin, does not "seclude" the classification of the English as a German language.    The same happens with the Albanian language, with the 55% of the albanian words borrowed from Latin -directly or indirectly (through the Italian, French, Venetian, Neapolitan, Vlach, etc..), as Prof. Trifone wrote in 1998, after a two years field-research in Albania. 
 
Of course there are as many linguistic opinions as there are scholars, so some scholars can argue that there are only 40% of loanworded words from Latin in the Albanese language - as states the forumer Theodore Felix.
I believe that the 15% of difference is due to the fact that prof. Trifone (who is the Director of the School of Linguistics at the University of Siena, near Florence) includes even the words that are phonetically loanworded from a previous language borrowing.
Let me explain in plain English: 
1) There are many albanian words loanworded from English, like the words "manager" or "management". 
But these famous english words are loanworded originally from the italian merchants of the Renaissance. Actually, "management" comes from the italian "maneggiamento" that in renaissance lombard dialect is phonetically said "manegmen", because the italian "mano" means in english "hand" and so management =handlement.
2) Furthermore, there are many loanworded words that are syncopated and are difficult to realize from where they are borrowed.  For example, CAPITAL = CAPut ITALiae or head of Italy in syncopated Latin.
But during the Renaissance the word "capital" was extended to the financial area, so when K. Marx wrote his famous "Kapital" in German, he was using a word loaworded from Latin. That word was tranferred to Albanian to define the "Kapitalism", so hated by the Albanese dictator Hoxha.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote theMacedonian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2006 at 12:54
Hehehe oks this is how it goes. I lived in Macedonia right untill last year, i lived in a part of Macedonia where no albanians live, so my contacts with albanians wore rare. But still not that often i would hear an albanian speak and when he did the language does not sound turkis.
I dont know how you got to that conclusion but Albanian in no chance sounds turkis(by the way i also happen to have turkish friends)
 
If u say that Albanian sounds turkis because it has a few turkis words than heheh ur kidding ur selfs.
As a Macedonian my ancestors accepted the slavic language when they came about and mixed.
But when the turks came that same language adopted alot of turkis words.
 
SO ima a Macedonian, speeking Macedonian but my native dialect still contains turkis words only adopted for the easines of our thoung. So we have Macedonain words... but we also tend to use every now and then a turkis word. Im talking about the Macedonian dialect spoken in South-Eastern Macedonia.
 
cya later
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