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Forum LockedHow would albanian sound to a non-ethnic?

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xristar View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2006 at 12:48
Albanian to me sounds nothing like slavic. It sounds like latin. I confuse it with romanian very easily, as I'm not very familiar with any of the two languages (I've watched an albanian movie though, I've no idea of the title -good movie it was).
 
Arber, in Greek eagle is called 'aetos'. I haven't heard anything like shqipe or whatever.
The bear however resembles the albanian, as it is called 'arktos' (or 'arkouda' in more modern Greek). Field is also 'agros' which may be somehow related to your albanian.
 
Quote I have heard an albanian folk song in Microsoft Encarta. It sounds just like the bulgarian folk songs from the Rhodopes mountain in Southern Bulgaria.
You mean polyphonic? (Many people singing together, but not the same tune). I have also heard some such bulgarian songs. In greek populations of Albania and epirus they are quite common. They are though to be very ancient. Ancient Greeks are believed to have had such songs, but the strictly monophonic logic of byzantium (church music) changed this.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arbėr Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2006 at 13:26
Xristar, I am probably wrong about the greek word meaning eagle. anyway, there could be other synonymes as well, in albanian we have many words for eagle (and different kinds or sizes of eagles).
 
Eagle: Shqiponjė/a, Shqipe/ja, Shkype.ja, Shkabė/a, Zhgabė/a, Shkabonjė/a, Astrit/i, Petrit/i, Sokol/i, Skifter/i, Fajkua/oi (there are also other synonymes in albanian, but this is what it comes in mind right now). Probably in greek there could be synonymes also...
 
Polyphonic singing is traditional to many regions of albania, espacially in Toskėria (land of tosks) and in labėria (land of labs). But also in other regions we find biphonic, polyphonic and monophonic singing. I wouldnt say that we borrowed that from greek or bulgarians, that is just a charachteristic that we share in our folk culturesWink.
 
Just wanted to ask, what do you mean by sounds like latin? Like which latin language, cause romanian sounds different to italian, and both different to french, spanish, portuguese etc. Or do you mean just the old latin (how did it sound by the way??)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2006 at 04:52

Not like italian. But I understand immediatelly that it is neither slavic, nor germanic. I probably wouldn't understand that it is albanian. Some languages like albanian, and romanian, I don't know them well enough to know them when I hear them, but they are different from other european languages.

About eagles, there are many types of eagles, subraces you could say. I don't know all of them. Generally they have names like stavraetos, thalassaetos etc.
Your names may reffer to different kinds of eagles, or perhaps to hawks. I know a hawk kind called 'petritis', which is the most common hawk in Greece.
 
About the polyphonic songs, I never said that you took it (it didn't even cross my mind actually). The history of these songs is lost in the blurry past.
(But I can't help but notice that the -tosk- arvanites of southern Greece don't have polyphonic songs. While the Greek epirotans have. eh ehEvil Smile)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arbėr Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2006 at 11:16

About the polyphonic songs, I never said that you took it (it didn't even cross my mind actually). The history of these songs is lost in the blurry past.

(But I can't help but notice that the -tosk- arvanites of southern Greece don't have polyphonic songs. While the Greek epirotans have. eh ehEvil Smile)
 
So it didnt even cross your mind huhAngry.
 
Anyway, the tosks, the ēams, and the labs, all living in Epirus, they all have polyphonic singing, but different. You can just search on google for it...
But this is of topic btw.
So albanian sounded like romanian to you
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2006 at 13:46
It crossed my mind after you said it.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nikodemos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2006 at 07:35
Albanian and Romanian don't sound similar to me.When I hear somebody speaking Romanian I instantly recognise the language and the same happens with the Albanian language.
Many words have been introduced in Albanian from the Italian language but this doesn't make Albanian a Romance language.
To me Albanian sounds rough not soft like Italian.Romanian sounds also very rough but in a different way(it has many -u)
I think that Albanian has a unique sound that is not similar to any other language 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Serge L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2006 at 09:10

We have many albanians here in Italy, so I had many occasions to hear them speak.

I agree with those who said that it sounds rather similar to Romance languages. Actually, I find the Albanian inflection closer to Italian one than, say, that of neo-latin tongues as French or Portuguese.

Albanian language sounds just a bit more whiny and drone than Italian to my hear, but not much -a lot less different, as to pronunciation alone- than other East European languages, at least. On the contrary, the lexicon is incomprensible to me, so when I hear Albanians talking in their language I have thge funny impression of Italian people who talk in an imaginary tongue, using words of their own invention, as kids sometime do for fun.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brunodam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2006 at 20:49
You're right! Clap
The Albanian language has a sound very similar to the Italian. Some scholars even pinpoint the strange relationship between the word "tosk" (Tosco) -the albanese dialect of the south- and the word "toscana" or tuscany (the region of Florence).
For example, in Italy some linguists say that the italian language is "UN DIALETTO TOSCO" (a dialect "tosco").
The same experts associate the "ghego" dialect of northern Albania with a PARTIALLY neo-latin language! 
The reason: in the last centuries of the Western Roman Empire the Latin was spoken in the Balkan peninsula north of an imaginary line from the central coast of Albania to the central coast of Bulgaria, passing through the Rodopes mountains. South of that line the language spoken was old Greek. 
Becouse everybody agrees that the Albanese is derived from the old romanized South Illirian (spoken in those centuries in the actual Kosovo, Montenegro and north Albania), it is easy to understand from where comes the similarity of the italian sound and the albanian sound.Smile Bruno

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nikodemos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2006 at 07:02
The reason: in the last centuries of the Western Roman Empire the Latin was spoken in the Balkan peninsula north of an imaginary line from the central coast of Albania to the central coast of Bulgaria, passing through the Rodopes mountains. South of that line the language spoken was old Greek. 
Becouse everybody agrees that the Albanese is derived from the old romanized South Illirian (spoken in those centuries in the actual Kosovo, Montenegro and north Albania), it is easy to understand from where comes the similarity of the italian sound and the albanian sound.

First of all,how do you know that the sound of the Italian language was the same with the sound of the Latin language?
Second,what proves the connection between Illyrian and Albanian?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arbėr Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2006 at 07:33

It is true that the latin influence on the modern albanian is due to the process of latinisation which happened in the adriatic shore during the first centuries AD. But in the mountains the process never completed, and in the region of Albania - Kosova there are plenty of mountains. So the albanian preserved its uniqueness, as well as a big amount of original vocabulary. But yes, it has some similarities with the romance languages.

Tosk and Toscano are not related actually. The modern Toscano probably took the name from a pre-latin language of the ethruscan populace of that zone. So the term is not of clear latin reference. The albanian Tosk comes from a tree, which was considered holy. I dont remember how is it in english, but it was the sacred tree of Zeus of Dodona. In albanian it is Dushk, from this derives Tosk.

Nikodimos, almost all of the known illyrian terms have a relative in modern albanian language. Is it just a casuality???And for your info, there are not few words known to be Illyrian. We have some hundreds of ethnonyms, like the names of the tribes, of the places, of the rivers, of the mountains, of the persons...And the majority of these are explained through albanian.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Giannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2006 at 08:11
Arber is ancient illyrian taught in school or in university, in Albania? And , if yes can you provide me which universities?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arbėr Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2006 at 16:32
Originally posted by Giannis Giannis wrote:

Arber is ancient illyrian taught in school or in university, in Albania? And , if yes can you provide me which universities?
 
Dear Giannis, your question sounds funny, but I will answer seriously, respecting your dignity.
No, ancient Illyrian is not taught in Albania, or somewhere else. This is because from the ancient Illyrian we know only ethnonyms, and some words. The language was not documentated (the illyrians didnt write much, and when they did, for ceremonial or governmental purposes, they used greek and after that latin).Freom the small thesaurus of Illyrian words we can state the relation between the albanian language and the ancient illyrian.
If you would like to know where is Illyrian taught, why didnt you make a research yourself. Everybody knows that from the ancient illyrian language we know just a bit...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brunodam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2006 at 23:32
Originally posted by Arbėr Z Arbėr Z wrote:

It is true that the latin influence on the modern albanian is due to the process of latinisation which happened in the adriatic shore during the first centuries AD. But in the mountains the process never completed, and in the region of Albania - Kosova there are plenty of mountains. So the albanian preserved its uniqueness, as well as a big amount of original vocabulary. But yes, it has some similarities with the romance languages.

Tosk and Toscano are not related actually. The modern Toscano probably took the name from a pre-latin language of the ethruscan populace of that zone. So the term is not of clear latin reference. The albanian Tosk comes from a tree, which was considered holy. I dont remember how is it in english, but it was the sacred tree of Zeus of Dodona. In albanian it is Dushk, from this derives Tosk. 

 
In Italian he word Tosco is derived from the word eTrOSCO (or etrusco), in a typical linguistic "contraction", similar to the one that created the english city-name YorK from the latin word Eburacum (eb=Y, u=O, r=R, ac=K).    The Etruscan (who lived in modern Tuscany) moved to central Italy probably from the Balkan peninsula before the founding of Rome. The famous historian Theodor Mommsen asserted ( in his masterpiece "The provinces of the Roman Empire") that they were related with the Illyrians, who populated the areas from the Po river to ancient Epirus. Indeed the Veneti (of the Veneto region around Venice) was an Illyrian tribe.  All this shows an historical connection between the Etruscan civilization and the Illyrian people.
There is an extensive literature supporting the influences of the Latin language in the southern Illyrian populations, even in those living near Moesia (actual Serbia): nothing denies that the sound of these romanized languages could be similar to the one used in the italian peninsula.  
Indeed  I am not saying that the word Tosk is related to the word Tosco, but only that some scholars have pinpointed the strange similarity........  
Finally we must remember that the Latin influence in the Albanian people was reintroduced (but only superficially) during the Renaissance by the Venetian expansion in the adriatic Balkans.
So, the italian linguist M. Trifone declared -after research done during the fascist occupation of Albania in WWII- that 55 % of the Ghego (northern albanian dialect) vocabulary comes from the Latin.  That percentage of words with Latin roots is similar to the one in the English vocabulary: another strange similarity........(of course, I am not saying that Ghego and English are related.....Big smile)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Giannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2006 at 02:54
Originally posted by Arbλr Z Arbλr Z wrote:

Originally posted by Giannis Giannis wrote:

Arber is ancient illyrian taught in school or in university, in Albania? And , if yes can you provide me which universities?
 
Dear Giannis, your question sounds funny, but I will answer seriously, respecting your dignity.
No, ancient Illyrian is not taught in Albania, or somewhere else. This is because from the ancient Illyrian we know only ethnonyms, and some words. The language was not documentated (the illyrians didnt write much, and when they did, for ceremonial or governmental purposes, they used greek and after that latin).Freom the small thesaurus of Illyrian words we can state the relation between the albanian language and the ancient illyrian.
If you would like to know where is Illyrian taught, why didnt you make a research yourself. Everybody knows that from the ancient illyrian language we know just a bit...
 
I don't know much about illyrian, you seemed to have better knowledge on this matter that's why I asked. Anyway, I thought that illyrian language was documented, and I made the assumption that if latin and ancient greek are taught in universities, propably the illyrian would be taught too. So, I'm sorry for my ignorance, I didn't want to provocate anything. Thanks, for your answer. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arbėr Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2006 at 07:17
 The Etruscan (who lived in modern Tuscany) moved to central Italy probably from the Balkan peninsula before the founding of Rome. The famous historian Theodor Mommsen asserted ( in his masterpiece "The provinces of the Roman Empire") that they were related with the Illyrians, who populated the areas from the Po river to ancient Epirus. Indeed the Veneti (of the Veneto region around Venice) was an Illyrian tribe.  All this shows an historical connection between the Etruscan civilization and the Illyrian people.
 
There is a certain claim about the linguistical links between the ethruscans and the illyrians. Also in this forum, in a previous thread a member (or ex member) trid to decipher the ethruscan tables (writings) through modern albanian. I checked that, and it made sense to a certain point of view. The writings took a meaning when read from right to left, an it sounded something kin to albanian. But I am not enthusiastic on this, if the facts are not accepted by a wide scientific community, than I dont use them as arguments. Anyway, also archaeologically, the ethruscans shared many similarities with the illyrians. But the extension of the illyrians is a bit wide geographically, so I dont believe that they constituted a unique ethnie, they probably had different ethnic groups and spoke different (but similar languages) Ethruscans and thracans could be somehow related to the illyrian group of languages. Only the southern illyrians, and the dalmatian coast (Illyrii proprie dicti) could be the antecedents of the modern albanians.
 
There is an extensive literature supporting the influences of the Latin language in the southern Illyrian populations, even in those living near Moesia (actual Serbia): nothing denies that the sound of these romanized languages could be similar to the one used in the italian peninsula.
 
That is incontestable, in the western balkans (Illyria) started a cultural-linguistical process of latinization. But if in Dacia the process was completed, and as a result we have a neolatin laguage, in Illyria only the very coastal cities latinised completely. The mainland remained original in many linguistical aspects, preserving the substratum. Than, in the northern ad eastern illyrian zones settled the slavs. Actually they settled everywhere, but in the north and in the east they outnumbered and assimilated the indigenes (illyrians, latinised and non)
  
Indeed  I am not saying that the word Tosk is related to the word Tosco, but only that some scholars have pinpointed the strange similarity........  
 
It could be also related, but we lack facts on this
 
Finally we must remember that the Latin influence in the Albanian people was reintroduced (but only superficially) during the Renaissance by the Venetian expansion in the adriatic Balkans.
So, the italian linguist M. Trifone declared -after research done during the fascist occupation of Albania in WWII- that 55 % of the Ghego (northern albanian dialect) vocabulary comes from the Latin.  That percentage of words with Latin roots is similar to the one in the English vocabulary: another strange similarity........(of course, I am not saying that Ghego and English are related.....Big smile)
 
55% is a bit exagerated, but anyway, he was a fashist so I guess he had a conflict of interests...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GoldenBlood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2006 at 16:29
55% is very exagerated, GEG dialect is very rich...maybe have 5-6% latin words but 55% is very hilarous :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brunodam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2006 at 17:44
Professor M. Trifone (the most renowned italian scholar in lexicology) is the actual Director of the Linguistic Center at the University of Siena (near Florence).  In his famous book "Tecniques of lexicology: comparisons between italian and english lexicologies" he uses italian research on the albanian language done between 1941 and 1942 and compares those "fascist" results with his own researches done in Albania in 1996/7.   He is a serious professional and is considered impartial by the international scholar community: fascist researchers wrote that  2/3 (or 66%) of the Ghego words have latin roots (through loanwords from the latin, the venetian dialect, the italian/spanish/french languages and the "Vlachs" dialect/language), but he reduced that amount to 55%.
There is a nearly complete lack of greek roots in the Ghego vocabulary (showing that the Ghego origins are from the latin speaking areas of the roman empire, north of the linguistic line I have named in my first intervention in this forum: as the scholar Trifone writes , the Albanians were pushed south by the Slavs invasions and in south Albania/Cameria they language evolved in the Tosk, that is full of Greek loanwords).
Indeed the Albanian communist government in 1945 changed the albanian language from Ghego centered to Tosk centered, even in order to cut the strong albanian ties to Italy and to the italian/latin language (that were created during the political union of Italy and Albania, between 1939 and 1943, under the Savoia Kingdom of Victor Emmanuel III). Approve
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2006 at 19:02
    

I think that important Greek roots in Albanian cann't exists because Greek influence was small all the time: in the Antiquity, in Early Middle Age and late Middle Age, as in modern times.

In Antiquity Illyrians were having contacts with Greeks in small degree. In early Middle Age (the period from 4th to 8th century) the region was not under the Greek influence but of the Romanic speaking and migratory Barbarians.

In the Middle Age the control and cultural influence of Byzance over these regions was almost inexistent. In the Ottoman period and in the Modern time too. So, why should the Greeks have influenced Illyrians or Albanians?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arbėr Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2006 at 05:47

Bruno, the differences between tosk and gheg are not in the vocabulary of both dialects. Tosk and Gheg share almost 90% of their vocabulary, the difference stays in the prononciation. Anyway, the dialects, in their several forms are mutually comprehenisble. Even the latin-originated words are shared by the dialects. Regarding the ancient greek words, they are to be found in the ghegs as well as in the tosks, and they are mostly words describing an agrarian life...Eqerem Cabej made many interesting studies regarding the latin and the ancient greek influences in albanian, and he presented his studies succesfully to the international science communities, during his life. The gheg and the tosk are two dialects which were formed in the last 5 centuries, so the latin influenced them the same.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brunodam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2006 at 21:37
You are right, the Greek language is irrelevant to the Albanian language.
Although Albanian has a host of borrowings from its neighbours, it shows exceedingly few evidences of contact with ancient Greek; one such is the Gheg mokŌn (Tosk mokŌr) "millstone," from the Greek mekhane'. 
Eqerem Cabet was the defensor of the greek language influences in the tosk dialect and arose to great importance in the scholar community of communist Albania mainly because he was close friend of the dictator Hoxha (and was born in the same southern albanian area around Argirocaster).
Obviously close contacts with the Romans gave many Latin loans; e.g., mik "friend," from Latin amicus; kŌndoj "sing, read" from cantare. Furthermore, such loanwords in Albanian attest to the similarities in development of the Latin spoken in the Balkans and of Romanian, a Balkan Romance tongue. For example, Latin paludem "swamp" became padulem, and then padure in Romanian and pyll in Albanian, both with a modified meaning, "forest." Conversely, Romanian also shares some apparently non-Latin indigenous terms with Albanian; e.g., Romanian brad, Albanian bredh "fir." Thus these two languages reflect special historical contacts of early medieval relationships in the same geographical areas. Many Italian loanwords can be attributed to cultural contacts of the past 500 years with Venetians and Neapolitans.
A fair number of features--e.g., the formation of the future tense and of the noun phrase--are shared with other languages of the Balkans (like the Vlach language) but are of obscure origin and development; Albanian or its earlier kin could easily be the source for at least some of these.
Verbs have roughly the number and variety of forms found in French or Italian and are quite irregular in forming their stems. Noun plurals are also notable for the irregularity of a large number of them. When a definite noun or one taken as already known is the direct object of the sentence, a pronoun in the objective case that repeats this information must also be inserted in the verb phrase; e.g., i-a dhash‘ librin atij is literally "him-it I-gave the-book to-him," which in Neapolitan (southern italian) would be the very similar pronunciation "I aggia da' libri a tti'  ".    In general, the grammar and formal distinctions of Albanian are reminiscent of Romance languages, especially of Romanian. The albanian sounds suggest Southern Italian, but Gheg with its nasal vowels strikes the ear as distinctive.

The official Albanian language, written in a standard roman-style orthography adopted in 1909, was based on the south Gheg dialect of Elbasan from the beginning of the Albanian state until World War II, and since has been modeled on Tosk. Albanian speakers in Kosovo and in Macedonia speak eastern varieties of Gheg but since 1974 have widely adopted a common orthography with Albania. Before 1909, the little literature that was preserved, was written in local makeshift Italianate or Hellenizing orthographies, or even in Turko-Arabic characters. A few brief written records are preserved from the 15th century, the first being a baptismal formula from 1462. The scattering of books produced in the 16th and 17th centuries originated largely in the Gheg area (often in Scutarene north Gheg) and reflect Roman Catholic missionary activities. Much of the small stream of literature in the 19th century was produced by exiles. Perhaps the earliest purely literary work of any extent is the 18th-century poetry of Jul Variboba, of the enclave at S.Giorgio, in Calabria. Some literary production continued through the 19th century in the Italian enclaves, but no similar activity is recorded in the Greek areas. All these early historical documents show a language that differs little from the current language. Because these documents from different regions and times exhibit marked dialect peculiarities, however, they often have a value for linguistic study that greatly outweighs their literary merit.

The two principal dialects, Gheg in the north and Tosk in the south, are separated roughly by the Shkumbin River. Gheg and Tosk have been diverging for at least a millennium, and their less extreme forms are mutually intelligible.  Their pronunciation differences are not extreme, but their vocabulary is various: mostly from latin for the Gheg, while for the Tosk there are some modern greek and turkish loanwords. Gheg has the more marked subvarieties, the most striking of which are the northernmost and eastern types, which include those of the city of Shkod‘r (Scutari), the neighbouring mountains along the Montenegro border, Kosovo and Macedonia.
Actually the strong influence of the English in the contemporary albanian society has started to give many loanwords to the Albanian language. Because half the english words are borrowed from the Latin, there is an increase of the words of latin roots in the albanian language. For example: "management" is an english word borrowed from the renaissance italian word "maneggiare" (handlement, because mano=handle). So the Latin is strongly influencing the Albanian language for the third time (after the times of the Roman empire and the times of the Venetian republic). Smile  Bruno

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