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Forum Lockedhow the mongols breached the great wall?

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    Posted: 26-Sep-2006 at 08:14
hey guys i need information about how the mongols breached the great wall of china. thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gun Powder Ma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Sep-2006 at 10:25
At the time of the Mongol invasions (13th century), there was no Great Wall of China. The wall you may have in mind was only later constructed during the Ming era, between c. 1550 and 1640.

However, there have been a defensive systems at China's northern border since the Warring States period (5th to 3rd century BC), but these were mostly rammed earth affairs with perishable maaterials like reeds and wood. A dry stone wall from Han times though still exists, but other than that archaeologists have today a hard time to establish the exact whereabouts of the various walls erected in the course of 2000 years.

The upshot is that there was probably no really efficient border wall which could have helpt the Chinese against the Mongol onslaught.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LilLou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Sep-2006 at 17:08
Actually at the time of the mongol invasion of china there was a a great wall ghengis khan had to send three armies in order to find a sucessful way of breaching it, the wall you mention during the ming era was just an extension of what was already built.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Preobrazhenskoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 00:48
Originally posted by LilLou LilLou wrote:

Actually at the time of the mongol invasion of china there was a a great wall ghengis khan had to send three armies in order to find a sucessful way of breaching it, the wall you mention during the ming era was just an extension of what was already built.
 
Besides the rammed earth fortifications of the Qin Dynasty (221 - 207 BC) and the dry stone wall of the Han Dynasty (202 BC - 220 AD) that Gun Powder Ma mentioned, how extensive was the Song Dynasty era Great Wall, and was it all made of stone like during the Ming period?
 
Eric
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BigL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 06:10
Many Chinese Empires Built Various Walls to protect their borders.Qin dynasty just unified the Existing walls already in place.Although they are built of Rammed earth i think its likely they were covered with Stone as Rammed earth walls are usually. Parts of the Qin Wall were made from just stone ,perhaps there was abundunt stone rescources nearby or it was quiker to build than rammed earth ,but other parts of the wall were built with Reeds and flaxes as it was the desert and the only available material.Also some parts of the Qin wall are not wall but a giant dry moat in the dry Desert
 
But the Song Dynasty was in South of China in the Mountainous regions so instead of building Walls they built Watchtowers ,forts and Planted Forests to hamper Cavalry movements and artifical lakes.Thumbs Up


Edited by BigL - 27-Sep-2006 at 06:11
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 14:58
actually, chinese repaire great wall every year before Jin dynasty, so for a hundred years without repairing, the great wall was extremely damaged, and by the time mongols came, the wall pretty much lost it's effect.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Turk Nomad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2006 at 09:22
Well,Turks entered and raided china hundreds time.Great Wall couldn'T stopped simple raiders...Don't forget army was mainly Turkic and most of them were raiders.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote poirot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2006 at 10:29
The concept of the Great Wall is NOT, I repeat NOT what we nowdays think it is.  In a sense, it was the LAST LINE of Defense, not a stationary wall that simply blocks nomads.  There were usually encampments outside of the wall, and the wall is simply somewhere to fall back to. 
 
The Great Wall was mostly relevant to three dynasties: Qin, Han, and Ming, all of which spent some time building their own version of the Great Wall. 
 
Other dynasties relied lesser on the Great Wall and more on key frontier districts and forts.  For example, during the Tang Dynasty, Turkic empires were crushed by Emperor Taizong, and many Turkic warriors became loyal Tang generals.  The Tang Empire extended beyond the traditional limits of the Great Wall and posted many generals of foreign blood - such as Turks and Koreans - in key military districts in the frontier, often in areas such as Central Asia and the steppe.
 
Here, I would like to dispel the idea that Turks and other nomadic groups were only raiders who breached the wall.  In many times, the same Turks and other nomadic groups served on THE OTHER SIDE of the wall.   The Chinese dynasties also employed many foreigners, often nomads, in their armies.    The Tang Dynasty's employment of Turks in key commanding posts is one example; another example is the Ming Dynasty, where cavalry officers were often Mongols.  In the later stages of the Ming Dynasty, desertion from the army often enabled Mongols and other nomadic groups to join the ranks as mercenaries.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2006 at 15:30
turks???????!!!!!???
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2006 at 15:37
the Qin great wall actually extend to south Korea
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omnipotence Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2006 at 17:48
turks???????!!!!!???
 
Not the Middle Eastern turks. He means the nomadic turks of centra asia I believe.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote poirot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2006 at 17:50
Correct, Turkic generals such as Feng Changqing and An Lushan were of the Northern/Central Asian stock.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2006 at 01:20
Originally posted by poirot poirot wrote:

Correct, Turkic generals such as Feng Changqing and An Lushan were of the Northern/Central Asian stock.


As are so many other turks. You can't expect a country as huge as China to have just one language.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King Kang of Mu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2006 at 05:17
Originally posted by Siege Tower Siege Tower wrote:

the Qin great wall actually extend to south Korea
Any evident?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BigL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Oct-2006 at 01:20
Originally posted by King Kang of Mu King Kang of Mu wrote:

Originally posted by Siege Tower Siege Tower wrote:

the Qin great wall actually extend to south Korea
Any evident?
 
What you want us to go to North Korea and find the WallClap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Oct-2006 at 01:47
Originally posted by poirot poirot wrote:

The concept of the Great Wall is NOT, I repeat NOT what we nowdays think it is.  In a sense, it was the LAST LINE of Defense, not a stationary wall that simply blocks nomads.  There were usually encampments outside of the wall, and the wall is simply somewhere to fall back to. 
 
The Great Wall was mostly relevant to three dynasties: Qin, Han, and Ming, all of which spent some time building their own version of the Great Wall. 
 
Other dynasties relied lesser on the Great Wall and more on key frontier districts and forts.  For example, during the Tang Dynasty, Turkic empires were crushed by Emperor Taizong, and many Turkic warriors became loyal Tang generals.  The Tang Empire extended beyond the traditional limits of the Great Wall and posted many generals of foreign blood - such as Turks and Koreans - in key military districts in the frontier, often in areas such as Central Asia and the steppe.
 
Let me preface my reply by deferring to you guys since you are the Asian history experts.  It is my understanding that it was a combination of the very things that poirot mentioned--Turkic warriors and people in encampments near/outside the Wall--which led to the Wall's eventual "breach."  The emperors established (enfeoffed?) guards and their families along the wall to live there and watch over it.  They had daily contact (economic, social) with the barbarian peoples outside and grew used to them.  So the Turkic generals, some of whose loyalty was questionable, worked with the apathetic guards and eventually allowed raiders to sneak inside.  Forgive my lack of chronological detail, for I can't remember exactly when this occured.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BigL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Oct-2006 at 23:24
This according to an old  History channel documentry which is innacuratte.Ming dynasty the 17th centrury Manchu people are Juzhen mongolian semi nomadic people were let through the gate by a chinese governor who was paid off.
 
The mongols never had to face a great wall as it was only a historical ruin by then
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2006 at 08:34
pre qin


qin great wall





han great wall

han's invision against xiong-nu




ming great wall





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WEILLING Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2006 at 10:44
Smile
The Jin Dynasty<金> defenced and controled the great wall area at that time.
 
Jin Dynasty chief general Wang. GU-bu defected to the MONGOLS, then MONGOLS controled the great wall in AD 1203, therefore Mongols never breached the great wall.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Turk Nomad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2006 at 11:09
Originally posted by Siege Tower Siege Tower wrote:

turks???????!!!!!???
 
Nearly %85 of army was Asian Turkic tribesman friend =)
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