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Zomaan Shilogh Dyak ![]() Janissary ![]() ![]() Joined: 01-Mar-2009 Location: Pakistan Status: Offline Points: 9 |
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An Afghan poster mentioned that the Nuristani (formerly Kafiristanis, or Kafirs of the Hindukush) are an Iranian group. In actuality they are niether Iranic nor Indic, but a separate group unto themselves. Previously they categorized as an archaic Indic group (Dardic).Another interesting point is that the Durand Agreement clearly states that Arnawai(Arandu) and Bashgal(Eastern Nuristan) are regions outside of Afghan influence, but in 1895 the Afghans forcibly captured Bashgal and converted the people to Islam. Bashgal had previously been tributary to Chitral, and the Afghans took advantage of a war of succession in Chitral took launch a campaign in Bashgal.
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Chaaghli Ay Chaagh Mo Korey, Yarkhun O Darband Aa Asum
Surkhum Sthor Ma Mulo, Pong Lakhee Alghaan Aa Asum, Gaah-e-Badakhshan Aa Asum |
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MarcoPolo ![]() Pretorian ![]() ![]() Joined: 05-Jul-2007 Location: Planet Earth Status: Offline Points: 185 |
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yes, that is true. Several of these valleys paid tribute to the mehter(Beg) of Chitral and where cut off from their natural and historical routes to Northern Pakistan(Chitral) when they were forcibly conquered and converted to Islam by the ''Iron Amir'' of Afghanistan.
Also, I agree, the region of Northern Pakistan was also called Dardistan a long time ago, they are an indigenous group formerly known as Dard. They are an ancient people unto themselves and should not be confused with the more populous Iranic or Indic groups.
Interestingly, according to the Durand line agreements, those regions should still be considered associated with Chitral and subsequently Pakistani administrative control. The Pakistani government should put a case forward in this regard so that those people in Nuristan forcibly captured by the Afghans can be liberated and a historical unjust be corrected. In the case of the Kalash, the establishment of the Durand Line in effect, protected them from the Pograms of the Afghan Iron Amir otherwise they would be an extinct group today
![]() Even when you travel to Chitral (Chitral City), you will notice that there is still considerable inter-change and many settlements of Nuristani from Afghanistan within this region of northern Pakistan and they are often treated as local people(s), so the social bonds still appear to be intact.
![]() P.S. have you gone to Chitral recently?, last time I went was a good couple years ago, how is the Lowari pass progressing?? Edited by MarcoPolo - 06-Apr-2009 at 21:05 |
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PakistaniShaheen ![]() Janissary ![]() ![]() Joined: 26-Dec-2008 Status: Offline Points: 12 |
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This all depends how you want to start Afghan history. Most modern day states did not have their modern names.
The state of Afghanistan was formed in 1747.
The claim of Afghan race is a bit misleading. Afghans are more of a nationality than a race. The Afghan people are mainly of Mongoloid and Caucasianoid stock- 2 completely different backgrounds.
here is from the CIA world factbook:
Edited by PakistaniShaheen - 10-Apr-2009 at 00:05 |
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PakistaniShaheen ![]() Janissary ![]() ![]() Joined: 26-Dec-2008 Status: Offline Points: 12 |
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A couple of other misconceptions I wanna clear up. Pakhtuns=Iranic people (a linguistic defination not racial one) Nuristanis=Drardic Uzbeks=Turkic Hazaaras=Iranic (again linguistic terms since Hazaraaz are Mongoloid) In short there is no "Afghan race" anymore than a Soviet race. Afghans consist of many races including those of caucasianoid and mongoloid stock.
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Afghanan ![]() Chieftain ![]() ![]() Durr e Durran Joined: 12-Jun-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1076 |
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The short answer is No. The British would not invade Afghanistan again. If you are going to talk about the Great Game, you can't help but mention Russia. When Czarist Russia was shamefully defeated by the Japanese in the turn of the 20th century, that led to a complete change in the balance of power. Russians grew vehemently opposed to the Czar and hence aspirations to take over India. The British's reason to invade and occupy Afghanistan was to stop any efforts by Czarist Russia to influence the country.
When the British invaded Afghanistan on a false pretense, they learned the hard lesson that the country was difficult to occupy, and even harder to control. Afghanistan was a costly mistake to the British. This lesson was painfully learned by all would-be occupiers. If you read Peter Hopkirk's "The Great Game" you will see that the Imperial Britain went from hawkish leadership to conservative leadership quite a few times during the Great Game. Depending on what kind of leadership was in charge, their policy to subdue the Afghan regions changed along with it. British interests to the region was simple, to curb Russian expansion.
At the time, the Russians were intent on destabilizing Afghanistan and to make new inroads (and railroads) towards Herat and Northeastern Afghanistan where the border was still being mapped. They tried taking Herat by aiding the Iranians in their sieges of Herat, but they failed. Emir Abdur Rahman Khan was the sole Afghan that stopped the British from starting another costly campaign into Afghanistan. His hatred for Russia was more than his hatred for the British. Citing the failures of his cousins in his memoirs, he was willing to negotiate and cede lands in exchange for power, money, and weapons from the British army. He was also willing to disperse any rebellions in his territory while vehemently opposing Russian influence. All he asked was that the British aid him when he needed it against the Russians and the British came to his aid when the Russians attacked during the Panjdeh incident. After that was resolved, the British without the Afghan ruler being present, set in stone the borders that would make Afghanistan today. Abdur Rahman Khan speaks about this in his memoirs and regretted that portions of NWFP had to be ceded to British control, but he was right in that the British would never be able to contain or control the border so in turn, he really didn't lose anything. Edited by Afghanan - 10-Apr-2009 at 08:40 |
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The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest.
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Nataraja ![]() Immortal Guard ![]() Joined: 14-Apr-2009 Status: Offline Points: 0 |
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the Pakistani government 'officially' honors Turk-afghan raiders such as ghazni and ghori and highlights that Pakistani society is amalgation of these forces.
considering this thought being etched into the public conciosness, i would venture to say quite a bit. |
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Zomaan Shilogh Dyak ![]() Janissary ![]() ![]() Joined: 01-Mar-2009 Location: Pakistan Status: Offline Points: 9 |
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Marco, I was in Chitral until November.
It is indeed as shame that our Mehtar's gave up their claims to Nuristan and the Kunar Valley down to Asmar. The Bashgalis and Kunar tribesmen even supported the Mehtar against the Afghan's in 1919. The Chitral Bodyguard even recaputured the fortress at Birkot, which is where the Bashgal river meets the Chitral river.
Even today the people of Nuristan still have close links to Chitral.
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Chaaghli Ay Chaagh Mo Korey, Yarkhun O Darband Aa Asum
Surkhum Sthor Ma Mulo, Pong Lakhee Alghaan Aa Asum, Gaah-e-Badakhshan Aa Asum |
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00historylover00 ![]() Janissary ![]() ![]() Joined: 10-May-2009 Status: Offline Points: 19 |
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Yup theres more pashtuns in pakistan. But In pakistan pashtuns are not a majority. In afghanistan however they are.
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00historylover00 ![]() Janissary ![]() ![]() Joined: 10-May-2009 Status: Offline Points: 19 |
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The people of nuristan have close ties with the pashtuns. Their language is also similar
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00historylover00 ![]() Janissary ![]() ![]() Joined: 10-May-2009 Status: Offline Points: 19 |
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Ghazni is a province and the people that live there come from different ethnic groups. Pashtuns and Tajiks are the most in that province and the Uzbeks come after. How does that make them Turk-Afghan? Ghazni is not an ethnic group.
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00historylover00 ![]() Janissary ![]() ![]() Joined: 10-May-2009 Status: Offline Points: 19 |
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Uzbeks are not turks. Turks in Afghanistan come from the same group as the original Turks. They speak Turkish too. Uzbeks on the other hand are Aryan mixed with some mongol blood because of an invasion. And they speak uzbeki a persian language.
And Im not mistaking them for Hazaras.
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00historylover00 ![]() Janissary ![]() ![]() Joined: 10-May-2009 Status: Offline Points: 19 |
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By Mongoloid stock no they are not , the majority of them are of Aryan and Persian stock also Caucasian. and the mongols on the other hand are only the Hazaras a small minority (0.02%) in Afghanistan.
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00historylover00 ![]() Janissary ![]() ![]() Joined: 10-May-2009 Status: Offline Points: 19 |
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But by Afghan race. The mojority of them come from the same race (tajiks, pashtuns, uzbeks, hazaras) Yes even the hazaras. They are aryans mixed with mongols and hence they have those features. But the only difference is they speak Different Languages. But speaking different language doesnt make your DNA different.
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00historylover00 ![]() Janissary ![]() ![]() Joined: 10-May-2009 Status: Offline Points: 19 |
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marcopolo: Where did nooristan come from ? Nooristanis live in Nooristan a province of their own in Afghanistan and they choose to be in Afghanistan. The nooristanis are a small group and so they are endangered and so is their language. It wasn't because of the afghan government if you read Nooristani History. They are the remainders of Alexander the Great. And they are not DARDIC or anything. THey are Greek. They speak Nooristani and the live in a mountanous region. And no one bothers them except for the taliban. THe taliban didn't kill them they converted them to islam. But that doesn't mean their EXTINCT. ?!?! How could they be Extinct? The Durrand line did nothing to protect them. Just divide them from their families (The Kalashis ) Before the nooristanis became muslim they were called the Kalashis but Noor means Light. So they acheived light by becoming muslim or something.
I don't know but you're mixing groups up. Nooristanis/kalashis are not dardic they are anceint greeks and they are left in Afghanistan/NWFP when Alexander the great left. They are Close to Nangarhar province in Afghanistan. The pashtuns and them are close friends. I don't know where you found this information. ![]() My grandma is nooristani she would've yelled if she'd heard this. They hate being mixed up with another ethnic group. They are their own group Kalashi or as afghans call them nooristani. And they are devoted muslims now and wouldn't want to go back to their old costumes.
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PakistaniShaheen ![]() Janissary ![]() ![]() Joined: 26-Dec-2008 Status: Offline Points: 12 |
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The Nuristanis speak a Dardic language i believe, the same category as Kalashi and Kashmiri.
Indo-Iranic family is divided into 3 subfamilies. Indo-Aryan, Iranic and Dardic, though some linguists believe Dardic is actually part of Indo-Aryan.
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PakistaniShaheen ![]() Janissary ![]() ![]() Joined: 26-Dec-2008 Status: Offline Points: 12 |
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PS-Norristanis ans Kalashis do not claim to be Alexander's descedents until the British introduced the idea. I spoke to a Nuristani and he told me the exact.
Also recent DNA tests show just the same.But anyways Im not in for an arguement on this mythical ancient Greek 'connection' to the Dards.
DNA proof along with linguistic and scholarly evidence shows these are not Greeks. Edited by PakistaniShaheen - 15-May-2009 at 04:12 |
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Zomaan Shilogh Dyak ![]() Janissary ![]() ![]() Joined: 01-Mar-2009 Location: Pakistan Status: Offline Points: 9 |
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The Nuristanis never chose to be part of Afghanistan. Amir Abdur-Rahman conquered them and forced them to convert.
The Kafirs (Nuristanis) used to dislike the Pashtuns (and most other Afghans) to a great extant. A boy was not considered a man until he went down to Kunar anor Nangarhar and returned with the head of a Pashtun.
They got along much better with the Chitralis and the Kafirs of the Bashgal Valley even paid tribute to Chitral.
The Kalash are not related closely to the Nuristanis, even their religion used to be different and they speak different languages. The Nuristanis used to consider the Kalash to be a weak race and servile race, they would demand anything in a Kalash village and Kalash would have to give it to them.
And yes, the Greek theoory has been largely disproven.
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Chaaghli Ay Chaagh Mo Korey, Yarkhun O Darband Aa Asum
Surkhum Sthor Ma Mulo, Pong Lakhee Alghaan Aa Asum, Gaah-e-Badakhshan Aa Asum |
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