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Forum LockedHow much of pakistan was part of Afghanistan?

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Zomaan Shilogh Dyak View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Zomaan Shilogh Dyak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: How much of pakistan was part of Afghanistan?
    Posted: 01-Mar-2009 at 11:35

An Afghan poster mentioned that the Nuristani (formerly Kafiristanis, or Kafirs of the Hindukush) are an Iranian group.

In actuality they are niether Iranic nor Indic, but a separate group unto themselves. Previously they categorized as an archaic Indic group (Dardic).
 
Another interesting point is that the Durand Agreement clearly states that Arnawai(Arandu) and Bashgal(Eastern Nuristan) are regions outside of Afghan influence, but in 1895 the Afghans forcibly captured Bashgal and converted the people to Islam. Bashgal had previously been tributary to Chitral, and the Afghans took advantage of a war of succession in Chitral took launch a campaign in Bashgal.
Chaaghli Ay Chaagh Mo Korey, Yarkhun O Darband Aa Asum

Surkhum Sthor Ma Mulo, Pong Lakhee Alghaan Aa Asum, Gaah-e-Badakhshan Aa Asum
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Post Options Post Options   Quote MarcoPolo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Apr-2009 at 20:56
Originally posted by Zomaan Shilogh Dyak

An Afghan poster mentioned that the Nuristani (formerly Kafiristanis, or Kafirs of the Hindukush) are an Iranian group.

In actuality they are niether Iranic nor Indic, but a separate group unto themselves. Previously they categorized as an archaic Indic group (Dardic).
 
Another interesting point is that the Durand Agreement clearly states that Arnawai(Arandu) and Bashgal(Eastern Nuristan) are regions outside of Afghan influence, but in 1895 the Afghans forcibly captured Bashgal and converted the people to Islam. Bashgal had previously been tributary to Chitral, and the Afghans took advantage of a war of succession in Chitral took launch a campaign in Bashgal.
 
yes, that is true.  Several of these valleys paid tribute to the mehter(Beg) of Chitral and where cut off from their natural and historical routes to Northern Pakistan(Chitral) when they were forcibly conquered and converted to Islam by the ''Iron Amir'' of Afghanistan. 
 
Also, I agree, the region of Northern Pakistan was also called Dardistan a long time ago, they are an indigenous group formerly known as Dard. They are an ancient people unto themselves and should not be confused with the more populous Iranic or Indic groups. 
 
 Interestingly, according to the Durand line agreements, those regions should still be considered associated with Chitral and subsequently Pakistani administrative control.  The Pakistani government should put a case forward in this regard so that those people in Nuristan forcibly captured by the Afghans can be liberated and a historical unjust be corrected.  In the case of the Kalash, the establishment of the Durand Line in effect, protected them from the Pograms of the Afghan Iron Amir otherwise they would be an extinct group today Cry
 
Even when you travel to Chitral (Chitral City), you will notice that there is still considerable inter-change and many settlements of Nuristani from Afghanistan within this region of northern Pakistan and they are often treated as local people(s), so the social bonds still appear to be intact.  Smile  Many of them have integrated on a much better scale vs Afghans of other nationalities (i.e. Turkmen,Tajiks etc..) within Pakistani society.
 
P.S. have you gone to Chitral recently?, last time I went was a good couple years ago, how is the Lowari pass progressing??


Edited by MarcoPolo - 06-Apr-2009 at 21:05
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PakistaniShaheen View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote PakistaniShaheen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2009 at 23:59
This all depends how you want to start Afghan history. Most modern day states did not have their modern names.
 
The state of Afghanistan was formed in 1747.
 
The claim of Afghan race is a bit misleading. Afghans  are more of a nationality than a race. The Afghan people are mainly of Mongoloid and Caucasianoid stock- 2 completely different backgrounds.
here is from the CIA world factbook:
 
Ahmad Shah DURRANI unified the Pashtun tribes and founded Afghanistan in 1747. The country served as a buffer between the British and Russian empires until it won independence from notional British control in 1919. A brief experiment in democracy ended in a 1973 coup and a 1978 Communist counter-coup. The Soviet Union invaded in 1979 to support the tottering Afghan Communist regime, touching off a long and destructive war. The USSR withdrew in 1989 under relentless pressure by internationally supported anti-Communist mujahedin rebels. A series of subsequent civil wars saw Kabul finally fall in 1996 to the Taliban, a hardline Pakistani-sponsored movement that emerged in 1994 to end the country's civil war and anarchy. Following the 11 September 2001 terrorist attacks in New York City, a US, Allied, and anti-Taliban Northern Alliance military action toppled the Taliban for sheltering Osama BIN LADIN. The UN-sponsored Bonn Conference in 2001 established a process for political reconstruction that included the adoption of a new constitution, a presidential election in 2004, and National Assembly elections in 2005. In December 2004, Hamid KARZAI became the first democratically elected president of Afghanistan and the National Assembly was inaugurated the following December. Despite gains toward building a stable central government, a resurgent Taliban and continuing provincial instability - particularly in the south and the east - remain serious challenges for the Afghan Government.


Edited by PakistaniShaheen - 10-Apr-2009 at 00:05
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PakistaniShaheen View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote PakistaniShaheen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2009 at 00:18

A couple of other misconceptions I wanna clear up.

Pakhtuns=Iranic people (a linguistic defination not racial one)

Nuristanis=Drardic

Uzbeks=Turkic

Hazaaras=Iranic  (again linguistic terms since Hazaraaz are Mongoloid)

 
In short there is no "Afghan race" anymore than a Soviet race. Afghans consist of many races including those of caucasianoid and mongoloid stock.
 
 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2009 at 08:36
Originally posted by MarcoPolo

 
 
 
Out of curiousity, Afghanan, do you think the British would have eventually pushed further into Afghanistan had World War II not been so disastrous for them and/or they remained the colonial rulers of South Asia?  Or if Afghanistan had more resourses to offer, would there have been greater impetus in securing it? Would this have been a positive or negative thing in the modern political sense of the region in our times? Im curious, as we often read that Afghanistan was left as a buffer state, and due to the logistical nightmare of mounting a campagin to annex it would have required considerable effort.  A simple agreement with Russia(itself overextended) seems too simplistic of a reason.  While not discounting the fighting spirit of the people as a factor which certainly proved considerable, they(British) did send expeditions/forces in this regard on several occasions and had a reputation for their resolve in accomplishing tasks which were in the interest of ''her majesty's Empire''.  They had accomplished many ''impossible'' tasks and previously unconquered regions before thanks to the advances of modern warfare and technology.  I wonder, what in the ultimate sense, truly stopped them at the border.  anyhow, whats your take on the issue?
 
The short answer is No.  The British would not invade Afghanistan again.  If you are going to talk about the Great Game, you can't help but mention Russia.  When Czarist Russia was shamefully defeated by the Japanese in the turn of the 20th century, that led to a complete change in the balance of power.  Russians grew vehemently opposed to the Czar and hence aspirations to take over India.   The British's reason to invade and occupy Afghanistan was to stop any efforts by Czarist Russia to influence the country.
 
When the British invaded Afghanistan on a false pretense, they learned the hard lesson that the country was difficult to occupy, and even harder to control.  Afghanistan was a costly mistake to the British.  This lesson was painfully learned by all would-be occupiers.  If you read Peter Hopkirk's "The Great Game" you will see that the Imperial Britain went from hawkish leadership to conservative leadership quite a few times during the Great Game.  Depending on what kind of leadership was in charge, their policy to subdue the Afghan regions changed along with it.   British interests to the region was simple, to curb Russian expansion.
 
At the time, the Russians were intent on destabilizing Afghanistan and to make new inroads (and railroads) towards Herat and Northeastern Afghanistan where the border was still being mapped.  They tried taking Herat by aiding the Iranians in their sieges of Herat, but they failed.  Emir Abdur Rahman Khan was the sole Afghan that stopped the British from starting another costly campaign into Afghanistan.  His hatred for Russia was more than his hatred for the British.  Citing the failures of his cousins in his memoirs, he was willing to negotiate and cede lands in exchange for power, money, and weapons from the British army.  He was also willing to disperse any rebellions in his territory while vehemently opposing Russian influence.  All he asked was that the British aid him when he needed it against the Russians and the British came to his aid when the Russians attacked during the Panjdeh incident.  After that was resolved,  the British without the Afghan ruler being present, set in stone the borders that would make Afghanistan today.  Abdur Rahman Khan speaks about this in his memoirs and regretted that portions of NWFP had to be ceded to British control, but he was right in that the British would never be able to contain or control the border so in turn, he really didn't lose anything.


Edited by Afghanan - 10-Apr-2009 at 08:40
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Nataraja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2009 at 06:23
the Pakistani government 'officially' honors Turk-afghan raiders such as ghazni and ghori  and highlights that Pakistani society is amalgation of these forces.

considering  this thought being etched into the public conciosness, i would venture to say quite a bit.
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Zomaan Shilogh Dyak View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Zomaan Shilogh Dyak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2009 at 22:31
Marco, I was in Chitral until November.
 
It is indeed as shame that our Mehtar's gave up their claims to Nuristan and the Kunar Valley down to Asmar. The Bashgalis and Kunar tribesmen even supported the Mehtar against the Afghan's in 1919. The Chitral Bodyguard even recaputured the fortress at Birkot, which is where the Bashgal river meets the Chitral river.
 
Even today the people of Nuristan still have close links to Chitral.
Chaaghli Ay Chaagh Mo Korey, Yarkhun O Darband Aa Asum

Surkhum Sthor Ma Mulo, Pong Lakhee Alghaan Aa Asum, Gaah-e-Badakhshan Aa Asum
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 00historylover00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-May-2009 at 00:20
Yup theres more pashtuns in pakistan. But In pakistan pashtuns are not a majority. In afghanistan however they are.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 00historylover00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-May-2009 at 00:22
The people of nuristan have close ties with the pashtuns. Their language is also similar
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 00historylover00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-May-2009 at 00:26
Ghazni is a province and the people that live there come from different ethnic groups. Pashtuns and Tajiks are the most in that province and the Uzbeks come after. How does that make them Turk-Afghan? Ghazni is not an ethnic group. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 00historylover00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-May-2009 at 00:30
Uzbeks are not turks. Turks in Afghanistan come from the same group as the original Turks. They speak Turkish too. Uzbeks on the other hand are Aryan mixed with some mongol blood because of an invasion. And they speak uzbeki a persian language. 
And Im not mistaking them for Hazaras.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 00historylover00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-May-2009 at 00:31
By Mongoloid stock no they are not , the majority of them are of Aryan and Persian stock also Caucasian. and the mongols on the other hand are only the Hazaras a small minority (0.02%) in Afghanistan. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 00historylover00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-May-2009 at 00:34
But by Afghan race. The mojority of them come from the same race (tajiks, pashtuns, uzbeks, hazaras) Yes even the hazaras. They are aryans mixed with mongols and hence they have those features. But the only difference is they speak Different Languages. But speaking different language doesnt make your DNA different. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 00historylover00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-May-2009 at 00:46
marcopolo: Where did nooristan come from ? Nooristanis live in Nooristan a province of their own in Afghanistan and they choose to be in Afghanistan. The nooristanis are a small group and so they are endangered and so is their language. It wasn't because of the afghan government if you read Nooristani History. They are the remainders of Alexander the Great. And they are not DARDIC or anything. THey are Greek. They speak Nooristani and the live in a mountanous region. And no one bothers them except for the taliban. THe taliban didn't kill them they converted them to islam. But that doesn't mean their EXTINCT. ?!?! How could they be Extinct? The Durrand line did nothing to protect them. Just divide them from their families (The Kalashis ) Before the nooristanis became muslim they were called the Kalashis but Noor means Light. So they acheived light by becoming muslim or something. 

I don't know but you're mixing groups up. Nooristanis/kalashis are not dardic they are anceint greeks and they are left in Afghanistan/NWFP when Alexander the great left. They are Close to Nangarhar province in Afghanistan. The pashtuns and them are close friends. I don't know where you found this information. Angry 

My grandma is nooristani she would've yelled if she'd heard this. They hate being mixed up with another ethnic group. They are their own group Kalashi or as afghans call them nooristani. And they are devoted muslims now and wouldn't want to go back to their old costumes. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote PakistaniShaheen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-May-2009 at 04:07
Originally posted by 00historylover00

The people of nuristan have close ties with the pashtuns. Their language is also similar
 
The Nuristanis speak a Dardic language i believe, the same category as Kalashi and Kashmiri.
 
Indo-Iranic family is divided into 3 subfamilies. Indo-Aryan, Iranic and Dardic, though some linguists believe Dardic is actually part of Indo-Aryan.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote PakistaniShaheen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-May-2009 at 04:11
PS-Norristanis ans Kalashis do not claim to be Alexander's descedents until the British introduced the idea. I spoke to a Nuristani and he told me the exact.
 
Also recent DNA tests show just the same.But anyways Im not in for an arguement on this mythical ancient Greek 'connection' to the Dards.
 
DNA proof along with linguistic and scholarly evidence shows these are not Greeks.  


Edited by PakistaniShaheen - 15-May-2009 at 04:12
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Zomaan Shilogh Dyak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2009 at 19:25
The Nuristanis never chose to be part of Afghanistan. Amir Abdur-Rahman conquered them and forced them to convert.
The Kafirs (Nuristanis) used to dislike the Pashtuns (and most other Afghans) to a great extant. A boy was not considered a man until he went down to Kunar anor Nangarhar and returned with the head of a Pashtun.
They got along much better with the Chitralis and the Kafirs of the Bashgal Valley even paid tribute to Chitral.
 
The Kalash are not related closely to the Nuristanis, even their religion used to be different and they speak different languages. The Nuristanis used to consider the Kalash to be a weak race and servile race, they would demand anything in a Kalash village and Kalash would have to give it to them.
 
And yes, the Greek theoory has been largely disproven.
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