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Forum LockedHow much of pakistan was part of Afghanistan?
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were all the highlands of pakistan part of afghanistan before at one point? that would mean all the land west of river Indus.

Edited by Seko - 14-Jan-2010 at 20:16
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Afghanistan is just a runaway part of a 300 year old country originally founded by a Multani called Ahmad Shah Baba. Multan is in Pakistan and so is the winter capital of the old Durrani empire, peshawar. So it is also quite feasable to say that the highlands of Afghanistan once belonged to Pakistan. The main confusion arises because of the name "Afghanistan" which Pakistan is no longer known by. There are currently more Pashtuns in Pakistan than in Afghanistan also. 
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     Pannini belonged to the Peshawar valley and was definetly what can today be called a Hindko. Before the rise of the Bactrian-Mangian complex in northern Afghanistan which was the cradle of Iranian civilization this region was definetly Indo-Aryan. The modern Tajiks are the direct descendent of the the Bactrian people. One Iranian tribe stayed behinde in the Himalayas while the Iranians were moving out of the sub-continent and these are the Pakthoons who Herodotus identifies as the tribe of Pactiyan and Paktuki (Pakhtun Khwa). That is why their langauge is best preserved like many people in the Himalyas like Brushuso and Balti and is the closest to Proto-Iranian. Then in about 1000 A.D the Pakhtuns started expanding east ward and south east ward and west ward assimalting may populations maybe predominently Indo-Aryan. This process of assimilation can be peeked in the fact that Hindkos 30 % of Pakhtoonistan associate themselves more with Pakhtuns than with Punjabis even though their language is very similar to Punjabi and their percentage is likely to decline more as many just start calling themselves Pakhtuns. Just as Niazis are even more likely to be assimilated among the Punjabis. Then in 1200 A.D the Balochs originally a west Iranian tribe moved into Balochsitan assimalting an indo-aryan prakrit speaking population. And that is hwo we arrive at the landscape which we see today.     
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      I think that the tall and short of it is that we should not take modern boundaries too seriously and think that the region from Pakistan to the Afghanistan's Pakhtun belt was bascially a very porous area and there really ever was any well defined boudary.
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Originally posted by maqsad

Afghanistan is just a runaway part of a 300 year old country originally founded by a Multani called Ahmad Shah Baba. Multan is in Pakistan and so is the winter capital of the old Durrani empire, peshawar. So it is also quite feasable to say that the highlands of Afghanistan once belonged to Pakistan. The main confusion arises because of the name "Afghanistan" which Pakistan is no longer known by. There are currently more Pashtuns in Pakistan than in Afghanistan also. 
 

This is ridiculous! People's never get defined by the place of their birth...but by their race, culture and blood. More over Pakistan is not continuity of Afghan kingdom...but a new entity upholding religion as base for their identity! In political term Pakistan is successor of British raj.

 
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But the British Raj took it from the Sikhs who took it from the Afghans.

Afghanistan, at its height, included all of Pakistan and all the way to Delhi.

Oh, and by the way, people always get defined by the place the are born. Not just the place they grew up, and their ancestry. That is why I am sure you can be defined as an American!
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Posts: 28 		Post Options Post Options   Quote True Afghan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2008 at 15:31
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

But the British Raj took it from the Sikhs who took it from the Afghans.

Afghanistan, at its height, included all of Pakistan and all the way to Delhi.

Oh, and by the way, people always get defined by the place the are born. Not just the place they grew up, and their ancestry. That is why I am sure you can be defined as an American!
 
 

Only Peshawar was under rule of Sikh while the urban Pashton populated area were directly under Afghan. Durand treaty explains this…for if Sikh had ruled these area then British would have not need for a treaty…  

 

 

Articles  of Durand treaty. 

Link

 

http://www.khyber.org/pashtohistory/treaties/durandagreement.shtml

 

 

  1. The British Government thus agrees to His Highness the Amir retaining Asmar and the valley above it, as far as Chanak. His Highness agrees, on the other hand, that he will at no time exercise interference in Swat, Bajaur, or Chitral, including the Arnawai or Bashgal valley. The British Government also agrees to leave to His Highness the Birmal tract as shown in the detailed map already given to his Highness, who relinquishes his claim to the rest of the Waziri country and Dawar. His Highness also relinquishes his claim to Chageh.
  2. The frontier line will hereafter be laid down in detail and demarcated, wherever this may be practicable and desirable, by joint British and Afghan commissioners, whose object will be to arrive by mutual understanding at a boundary which shall adhere with the greatest possible exactness to the line shown in the map attached to this agreement, having due regard to the existing local rights of villages adjoining the frontier.
     
  3. With reference to the question of Chaman, the Amir withdraws his objection to the new British cantonment and concedes to the British Governmeni the rights purchased by him in the Sirkai Tilerai water. At this part of the frontier the line will be drawn as follows:

    From the crest of the Khwaja Amran range near the Psha Kotal, which remains in British territory, the line will run in such a direction as to leave Murgha Chaman and the Sharobo spring to Afghanistan, and to pass half-way between the New Chaman Fort and the Afghan outpost known locally as Lashkar Dand. The line will then pass half-way between the railway station and the hill known as the Mian Baldak, and, turning south-wards, will rejoin the Khwaja Amran range, leaving the Gwasha Post in British territory, and the road to Shorawak to the west and south of Gwasha in Afghanistan. The British Government will not exercise any interference within half a mile of the road

 

 

In other word.. the area which later British called Settle area were the area where Brits took from Sikh while the "tribal agencies" FATA and PATA were forcefully taken away from Afghanistan under Durand treaty.

 

 

Now the claim that place of birth of people defines their ethnicity and origin is too ridicules to replay to. 

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The Brits are long goine, except in Afghanistan where they came back for another encore. And as for losing territory forcibly and crying about it (yet another True Afghan trait, must be all that daal), well Afghanistan started doing that since 1799, when Rajit Singh was so thoughtfully made Gov of Lahore by Zaman Shah.
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Originally posted by True Afghan

Originally posted by maqsad

Afghanistan is just a runaway part of a 300 year old country originally founded by a Multani called Ahmad Shah Baba. Multan is in Pakistan and so is the winter capital of the old Durrani empire, peshawar. So it is also quite feasable to say that the highlands of Afghanistan once belonged to Pakistan. The main confusion arises because of the name "Afghanistan" which Pakistan is no longer known by. There are currently more Pashtuns in Pakistan than in Afghanistan also. 
 

This is ridiculous! People's never get defined by the place of their birth...but by their race, culture and blood. More over Pakistan is not continuity of Afghan kingdom...but a new entity upholding religion as base for their identity! In political term Pakistan is successor of British raj.

 



By race and blood I presume you are referring to genetics. Are you trying to say that Ahmad Shah Baba was some sort of cloned product of a unique race known as the popalzai?



If someone outside of South Asia were to look at this picture they would mistakenly identify him as a Sikh.

And culture? What is culture besides a fusion of historical traditions, languages and crowd psychology? Even then like I said elsewhere the state of Afghanistan is an uneasy patchwork of Indic(pashtun), Iranic(dari) and Turkic(uzbek, hazara, turkomen) cultures with quite a bit of diversity of all sorts including language, sect and phenotype. It is well known how tense relations between these groups can get, do I need to remind you with examples?

And as far as pakistan holding religion as a base for it's identity it can also easily be said that afghanistan is doing the exact same along with forcing the official adoptation of two languages(pashto and farsi) to stitch all these cultures together in a 300 year old country created by a multani named ahmed.

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Maqsad, he born in Multan because his father (or some other reletive) was Gov of Sindh province under the Mughals, Multan being the Capital of Sindh at that time
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I'm not saying his entire clan had been in Multan for 2000 years, I am just emphasizing that his family must have been tied down in Multan. Generally speaking the mughals in the easternmost parts of the empire tended to intermarry with some of the natives to an extent as well. It's possible this was the case with his clan also. 
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Originally posted by Sparten

The Brits are long goine, except in Afghanistan where they came back for another encore. And as for losing territory forcibly and crying about it (yet another True Afghan trait, must be all that daal), well Afghanistan started doing that since 1799, when Rajit Singh was so thoughtfully made Gov of Lahore by Zaman Shah.
 

 

No body can deny the treason of Afghan ruler... take pashttonisan demand as example...on one hand the bloody monarch recognized Pakistan as state in 1947 two months after it come to being… and what does reorganization a state means? It mean accepting it border…on other hand in 1949 they organize a loya jarga that denounce the Durant treaty. On one hand they try to fool people with da pashtonistan zemong form Kabul radio on other hand during 1948,65 and 71 they not only done nothing to regain their rightful land but even facilitate the flow of Jahadi from Jalalabad and Kabul to fight “Kafirs.”

Indeed the reason why there has been double police or lack of police regarding pashtonistan is because first Durand line did little against unity of pashton.... this line was nothing but imaginary line in the sand...which no pashtons have ever accepted nor will ever accept…second because the return of pashtonsitan would have had undermine to the Kabul ruler…the eastern Afghans in pashtonsitan living under influences of British has been very political aware and it would be hard for Kabul rulers to manipulate them. This is why during Pakistani election in 60s Kabul rulers allocated resources to parties that were opposing Ghafar Khan party in Sarhad which they did fallow and continue to fallow to this day.

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Posts: 28 		Post Options Post Options   Quote True Afghan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2008 at 21:32
Originally posted by maqsad

Afghanistan is just a runaway part of a 300 year old country originally founded by a Multani called Ahmad Shah Baba. Multan is in Pakistan and so is the winter capital of the old Durrani empire, peshawar. So it is also quite feasable to say that the highlands of Afghanistan once belonged to Pakistan. The main confusion arises because of the name "Afghanistan" which Pakistan is no longer known by. There are currently more Pashtuns in Pakistan than in Afghanistan also. 
 

This is ridiculous! People's never get defined by the place of their birth...but by their race, culture and blood. More over Pakistan is not continuity of Afghan kingdom...but a new entity upholding religion as base for their identity! In political term Pakistan is successor of British raj.

 

 

By race and blood I presume you are referring to genetics. Are you trying to say that Ahmad Shah Baba was some sort of cloned product of a unique race known as the popalzai?
 

 

By race i mean Afghanian race... which according to Anthropologist Carleton S. Coon is "The long-faced, high-headed, hook-nosed type, usually of tall stature, which forms the principal element in the population of Iran, Afghanistan, and the Turkoman country, and which is also present in Palestine, parts of Arabia, and North Africa. It is probably related to the old Corded type of the Neolithic and Bronze Age."  “The Races of Europe” 

Moreover Ahmad shah Durrani as not popalzia  he was Sadozia..it is just that most people who have no idea about afghan tribal structure try to claim all Sadozia's as Durrani...which ridiculous... Durranis are only those descendent of Ahmad Shah.

 

 

 




 
 

If someone outside of South Asia were to look at this picture they would mistakenly identify him as a Sikh.

 

bawaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa now this is what i call trying to pulling aces form....     but no one can deny that the reason Sikh looks different then rest of Indic people is because armies of various kings from Afghanistan were roaming the plan of Punjabs for over thousands years.



And culture? What is culture besides a fusion of historical traditions, languages and crowd psychology? Even then like I said elsewhere the state of Afghanistan is an uneasy patchwork of Indic(pashtun), Iranic(dari) and Turkic(uzbek, hazara, turkomen) cultures with quite a bit of diversity of all sorts including language, sect and phenotype. It is well known how tense relations between these groups can get, do I need to remind you with examples?

Pashtun--Indic? bawaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

The same reason that Afghanistan survived all this blood and cry...intact and never in her history there was a secessionist movement should tell you about solidness of afghan identity. Afghanistan is culturally a homogenous country despite its diverse ethnic groups. In anthropology, Afghans are regarded as an Iranian people. (Note: This has nothing to do with Citizens of Iran, the neighboring country, we are talking about anthropology). The majority speak some branch of an Iranian language. Tajiks, Pashtuns, Baloch and Nuristanis are the major Iranian groups. Hazaras are non-Iranian but speak dari, an Iranian language. Uzbeks are turks, but their language and culture have been deeply influenced by the Iranian culture and language. Even Uzbek grammar has been affected by Iranian language grammar rules.

 
 

And as far as pakistan holding religion as a base for it's identity it can also easily be said that afghanistan is doing the exact same along with forcing the official adoptation of two languages(pashto and farsi) to stitch all these cultures together in a 300 year old country created by a multani named ahmed.

Afghanistan state signifies what is left of afghan empire drawn by blood of her own people...it is not a state bestowed for servitude of Saheeb...afghan identity is well established…during the civil war while each ethnic group had arm of their own none fought for independent but only to gain power…this should tell you that religion is not the reason that holds Afghanistan together…but its culture unlike Pakistan.



Edited by True Afghan - 24-Mar-2008 at 21:36
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Originally posted by Sparten

Maqsad, he born in Multan because his father (or some other reletive) was Gov of Sindh province under the Mughals, Multan being the Capital of Sindh at that time
 
 

This is false.. I’m not sure about Ahmad Durrani birth place. but i know that his father was not in governor of multan.His father was Mohammad Zaman Khan Abdali and his mother Zarghoona Alakozai. His grandfathers were Doulath Khan and Sarmasth Khan from the Atdali tribe, one of the two ruling tribes of Kandahar.

 
 
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maqsad,

Can you tell me where you get the information that Ahmad  shah Durrani was born in Multan? Wikipedia also claim that…but from what I remember(I’m just going by memory) the book Tarikh e Ahmad Shah E which is basically biography of Durrnai state his birth place in Herat. Specially when Ghalzia after revolting against Saffavid Turks had exiled a lot of Durranis to Herat. I will try to find Tarikh e Ahmad Shahi and recheck this.

 
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Originally posted by True Afghan

Originally posted by Sparten

The Brits are long goine, except in Afghanistan where they came back for another encore. And as for losing territory forcibly and crying about it (yet another True Afghan trait, must be all that daal), well Afghanistan started doing that since 1799, when Rajit Singh was so thoughtfully made Gov of Lahore by Zaman Shah.
 

 

No body can deny the treason of Afghan ruler... take pashttonisan demand as example...on one hand the bloody monarch recognized Pakistan as state in 1947 two months after it come to being… and what does reorganization a state means? It mean accepting it border…on other hand in 1949 they organize a loya jarga that denounce the Durant treaty. On one hand they try to fool people with da pashtonistan zemong form Kabul radio on other hand during 1948,65 and 71 they not only done nothing to regain their rightful land but even facilitate the flow of Jahadi from Jalalabad and Kabul to fight “Kafirs.”

Indeed the reason why there has been double police or lack of police regarding pashtonistan is because first Durand line did little against unity of pashton.... this line was nothing but imaginary line in the sand...which no pashtons have ever accepted nor will ever accept…second because the return of pashtonsitan would have had undermine to the Kabul ruler…the eastern Afghans in pashtonsitan living under influences of British has been very political aware and it would be hard for Kabul rulers to manipulate them. This is why during Pakistani election in 60s Kabul rulers allocated resources to parties that were opposing Ghafar Khan party in Sarhad which they did fallow and continue to fallow to this day.

GHaffar Khan spent the 60's in Afghanistan. As for 48, 65,71, Pakistan has two or three divisions on the border with Afghanistan and could have dispatched any aim to regain the "rightful land", not to mention the little fact that ost of Afghanistans food came from Pakistan, and Ayub Khan could simply tell the Afghans to find some other supply for food.
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Originally posted by True Afghan

 

By race i mean Afghanian race... which according to Anthropologist Carleton S. Coon is "The long-faced, high-headed, hook-nosed type, usually of tall stature, which forms the principal element in the population of Iran, Afghanistan, and the Turkoman country, and which is also present in Palestine, parts of Arabia, and North Africa. It is probably related to the old Corded type of the Neolithic and Bronze Age."  “The Races of Europe”



That sounds ridiculous. The genetics of Afghanistan clearly show a high admixture of siberio-mongoloid genes. Have you ever actually met more than a dozen Afghans in your life?


Originally posted by True Afghan

 

Moreover Ahmad shah Durrani as not popalzia  he was Sadozia..it is just that most people who have no idea about afghan tribal structure try to claim all Sadozia's as Durrani...which ridiculous... Durranis are only those descendent of Ahmad Shah.



Popalzai and Sadozai(not zia) are just tribal affiliations. Nobody in their right minds can say that the members of these tribes(which are spread over hundreds of miles) have a common heritage and no outside admixture. But let me guess, you are proposing that, am I right?




Originally posted by True Afghan

 

bawaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa now this is what i call trying to pulling aces form....     but no one can deny that the reason Sikh looks different then rest of Indic people is because armies of various kings from Afghanistan were roaming the plan of Punjabs for over thousands years.




Hold on a second here, if the armies of various kings from Afghanistan were roaming the plains of punjab for thousands of years then should the sikhs not have at least as much mongol admixture as central afghans?  Let me repeat the question for you once again. You say that the Sikhs look like Afghans because of thousands of years of admixture from Afghan armies, right? Ok assuming this is true then why do we not see any mongol looking sikhs and why do we see so many mongol/siberian looking pashtuns? Forget about the hazaras now I am just talking regular afghan/pashtuns now. Because according to your simple logic if Afghans were mixing with punjabis for thousands of years then punjabis should get some of that mongol blood passed to them also but we don't see any evidence of that. Wait--did all those afghan kings selectively leave behind the siberian/mongol looking soldiers before they went to roam the punjab? LOL


LOL you have no idea about Sikh history nor do you know which parts of Asia all of them came from, do you?


Originally posted by True Afghan

 

The same reason that Afghanistan survived all this blood and cry...intact and never in her history there was a secessionist movement should tell you about solidness of afghan identity. Afghanistan is culturally a homogenous country despite its diverse ethnic groups. In anthropology, Afghans are regarded as an Iranian people. (Note: This has nothing to do with Citizens of Iran, the neighboring country, we are talking about anthropology). The majority speak some branch of an Iranian language. Tajiks, Pashtuns, Baloch and Nuristanis are the major Iranian groups. Hazaras are non-Iranian but speak dari, an Iranian language. Uzbeks are turks, but their language and culture have been deeply influenced by the Iranian culture and language. Even Uzbek grammar has been affected by Iranian language grammar rules.


I really don't know what you have been reading and smoking but lets just take only 3 of the ethnic groups of Afghanistan.


Pashtuns--they have tried to secede as pashtunistan from Afghanistan and join with parts of Western pakistan and form a pashtun homeland.


Tajiks--we know there have been secessionist movements which want to dump the pakhtuns and unite Tajikistan, Herat, parsiwan areas(mainly some cities) of Afghanistan including Hazara areas.


Uzbeks--give me a break, these people are refugees and would unite with uzbekistan in a heartbeat. Only reason they stuck on in Afghanistan was to gain more power against pashtun domination and to expand their pan turkic sphere. Dostum ring a bell?



Heratis--do I even need to say anything here? They are already being taken over by Iran as I write this. Not really an ethnic group.



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Originally posted by True Afghan

maqsad,

Can you tell me where you get the information that Ahmad  shah Durrani was born in Multan? Wikipedia also claim that…but from what I remember(I’m just going by memory) the book Tarikh e Ahmad Shah E which is basically biography of Durrnai state his birth place in Herat. Specially when Ghalzia after revolting against Saffavid Turks had exiled a lot of Durranis to Herat. I will try to find Tarikh e Ahmad Shahi and recheck this.

 



I have read in more than one place that he was born in Multan. But since to you it doesn't matter where he was born, why worry so much? Big%20smile
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Originally posted by True Afghan

Now the claim that place of birth of people defines their ethnicity and origin is too ridicules to replay to. 



You are creating straw men that weren't even there. Nobody has said that the place of a person's birth defines their ETHNICITY but rather it defines a PART of their IDENTITY. Show me where anyone(besides you) even mentioned a direct connection between ethnicity(genetics) and place of birth?
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Originally posted by Sparten

Originally posted by True Afghan

Originally posted by Sparten

The Brits are long goine, except in Afghanistan where they came back for another encore. And as for losing territory forcibly and crying about it (yet another True Afghan trait, must be all that daal), well Afghanistan started doing that since 1799, when Rajit Singh was so thoughtfully made Gov of Lahore by Zaman Shah.
 

 

No body can deny the treason of Afghan ruler... take pashttonisan demand as example...on one hand the bloody monarch recognized Pakistan as state in 1947 two months after it come to being… and what does reorganization a state means? It mean accepting it border…on other hand in 1949 they organize a loya jarga that denounce the Durant treaty. On one hand they try to fool people with da pashtonistan zemong form Kabul radio on other hand during 1948,65 and 71 they not only done nothing to regain their rightful land but even facilitate the flow of Jahadi from Jalalabad and Kabul to fight “Kafirs.”

Indeed the reason why there has been double police or lack of police regarding pashtonistan is because first Durand line did little against unity of pashton.... this line was nothing but imaginary line in the sand...which no pashtons have ever accepted nor will ever accept…second because the return of pashtonsitan would have had undermine to the Kabul ruler…the eastern Afghans in pashtonsitan living under influences of British has been very political aware and it would be hard for Kabul rulers to manipulate them. This is why during Pakistani election in 60s Kabul rulers allocated resources to parties that were opposing Ghafar Khan party in Sarhad which they did fallow and continue to fallow to this day.

GHaffar Khan spent the 60's in Afghanistan. As for 48, 65,71, Pakistan has two or three divisions on the border with Afghanistan and could have dispatched any aim to regain the "rightful land", not to mention the little fact that ost of Afghanistans food came from Pakistan, and Ayub Khan could simply tell the Afghans to find some other supply for food.
 

During 48, 65,71 Pakistani later come to Afghanistan and were assured personally by the king that Afghanistan will not join the war against Pakistan and also that Afghanistan will not allow india to use her territory against Pakistan. Zahir Shah word was “We have difference over Pashtonistan with Pakistan but we will not back stab our Muslim brother.” While the stupid zahir shah were busy with his illusion of “Muslim brothers” Pakistan took the opportunity and implemented the Kabul must be burn police of Amir Monafeqen Zai beHuq. You should read Musharaf book…he attest that soviet invasion of Afghanistan was a god’s gift to Pakistan. it change Pakistan luck both financially and geo-politically.

As for as export and important the only that comes from Pakistan is plastic toys and cheap Desi useless products… while almost all of Afghanistan’s exports goes under Pakistan name…just last year Pakistan profited $200 million dollars from afghan carpet exports which is lebeled with “made in Pakistan” stickers. The good news is that this all is about to change…Chakhabur will provide a alternating sea access to Afghanistan and central asia…if bloody soviet had not invaded this would have happen long ago… the Shah of Iran was the one that purpose this to Afghanistan.

Let us just hope that IRA falls asap…the geo-politic of region will change.

 

 
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