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Forum LockedHow many greek letters can you recognize here?

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tkoletsis View Drop Down
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    Posted: 08-Mar-2008 at 21:21

These inscriptions are from China - western Zhou dynasty and are dated from 1028 to 771 BC.
As a Greek i can recognize almost all the greek alphabet there.
This is very strange because these symbols appear in the greek region at about 800 BC. with the disputed argument - in my opinion - of the phoenician origin of the greek alphabet.
Something does not going well with the ancient scripts considering too many mistakes by archaeologists in translating the linear B script till 1950. 
I think we miss something here. I have the suspicion that there is a greek influence here but there are not enough evidences about that.
I want your opinion.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2008 at 15:47
I highly doubt those have anything to do with Greek letters. The form doesn't mean they have the same usage.

As for the Phoenicians, almost all Greek scholars attribute them the invention of the alphabet. Phoenicians seem to have taken symbols from pre-existing script systems, but you can't say there's anyone before them using symbols to express separate soundings.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2008 at 10:15
These symbols are pictograms in origin, whereas Phonencian developed from Cunieform which in turn developed from early sumerian hieroglyphs. There doesn't appear to be any substantial link. I wouldn't be suprised that there would be some of these symbols around on Myceanean and Clydaic monuments and megarons, because essentially symbolism is very similar and that image of a man or a sun (etc) can be found in most societies, this doesn't point to a link. Well, you are a Greek, so if you recognise Greek symbols there I can't argue against you, me being a limey struggling with Classical Attic Greek, but I really don't think there can be a link between Zhou China and Ancient Greece.

Edited by Aster Thrax Eupator - 10-Mar-2008 at 10:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2008 at 18:25
There isn't a single Greek letter in there. The end
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tkoletsis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2008 at 19:13
The end?
Of course not
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tkoletsis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2008 at 19:16
Pottery writings from Qing Jiang County (1530-1395 BC)
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tkoletsis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2008 at 19:22
Pottery writings from Gao City and Zheng Zhou Er Li Gang (1620-1595 BC)
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tkoletsis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2008 at 19:28
Pottery writings from Gao City and Zheng Zhou Er Li Gang (1620-1595 BC)
 
 
There is a depiction of the following greek letters:
Alpha
Beta
Gamma
Epsilon
Heta
Iota
Kappa
Lamda (upper case)
Lamda (lower case)
Mi (upper case)
Mi (lower case)
Ni
Ksi
Omicron
Ro
Sigma
Tay
Ypsilon
Fi
Xi
Psi
Omega
Digamma
 
I've not succeeded yet to find the letters Delta, Zita, Thita, Pi but i thing i'll do it in a few days .
As you can see the whole greek alphabet parades in those few chinese pottery and bronze inscriptions.
The possibility of the relation of these symbols with random line and circle shapes is like - falling from the rock of Acropolis and find 1 million euro- as we say in Greece.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2008 at 20:40
Okay - there IS something weird about that
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ikki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2008 at 20:41
Originally posted by Aster Thrax Eupator Aster Thrax Eupator wrote:

These symbols are pictograms in origin, whereas Phonencian developed from Cunieform which in turn developed from early sumerian hieroglyphs. 
 
Well i think this theory is wrong, you can derivate it from the Ugaritic alphabet but the mainstream theory is that phoenician and precedents derive from Egyptian scripture, and sincerely ATE i have not hear about any other alternative.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LuckyNomad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2008 at 02:41
So are you suggesting that the Greeks developed their alphabet from Ancient Chinese pictographs?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2008 at 09:57
As I had shown on the thread below letters like Γ, Σ, F, Θ Υ etc appear in pictographs of the 5th millenium in the Helladic area. The difference is that the Phoenicians used symbols like those to represent a sound, not a syllable nor an ideogram. That is their invention, not the symbols. The symbols look similar in many proto-scripts.

http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=23288




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2008 at 12:40
there is some basic shapes like lamda and Xi which you will find in other places. Chinese pictograms are indigenous and it should be no surprise they may resemble other pictograms, linear symbols and the like.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2008 at 13:05
Originally posted by tkoletsis tkoletsis wrote:

Pottery writings from Qing Jiang County (1530-1395 BC)
 


i might be wrong, so the Chinese members can step in and correct me anytime.

number 31 looks like the character ren which means 'person' or 'man'.


the oldest scrip ('oracle' or bone script) my quick search comes up with makes this character  look like this


the next script 'seal script looks like what you have got there somewhat.




 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2008 at 13:37
All these particular Chinese symbols are just the earliest forms of the ideograms that don't represent sounds like Greek letters.
 
And in fact earliest Chinese ideograms have similarities with ancient Egyptian hyrogliefs and all pre-historic pictograms in general.
 
Why? Because they simply orginate from the primitive drawings. Some primitive drawings were similar in different parts of the world, simply because people saw similar things.
 
Alphabet is a unique and revolutionary invention of Phoneicians most likely derived from Egyptian democtic script.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2008 at 14:34
The only thing the Greeks invented in the alphabet was the addition of vowels. From 16 letters (if i remember well) they created a 24-letter alphabet ( the number varies at early stages). The phoenicians seemed to represent what they wanted to say with the consonants but in Greek you have some words that had the same structure making it hard to distinguish words. Example:

ΚΠΣ

This writting would probably work fine for phoenicians but for the Greeks the cases would be different.

ΚΠΣ could represent ΚΗΠΟΣ, ΚΑΠΩΣ, ΚΑΠΟΙΟΣ, ΚΟΠΟΣ, ΚΟΠΗΣ, ΚΟΠΑΣΕ and a range of other words.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2008 at 15:12
All those "Greek" letters found there are just about the most simple combination of lines you can write. A little child with his first attempt at using a pen could come up with a few of those. There is, for example, a reason why numerals such as I, II, III, etc, appears independently all over the globe. Now, if you succeed in connection sound values to all of those symbols, and if also these are the same as in the Greek alfabet you'll have a point, but not until then.


Edited by Styrbiorn - 11-Mar-2008 at 15:13
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tkoletsis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2008 at 22:23

Is this a random combination of lines too?

http://www.greek-thesaurus.gr/images/pub/Yangshao-vase.jpg
flat bottomed storage jar
Probably Gansu, Yangshao culture
Neolithic to early Bronze (circa , 3000-1500 BCE)
Buff-colored earthenware ornamented with appliques and black painted decorations
Cycladic spherical jug with spiral decoration from the same period
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2008 at 22:24
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

All these particular Chinese symbols are just the earliest forms of the ideograms that don't represent sounds like Greek letters.
 
And in fact earliest Chinese ideograms have similarities with ancient Egyptian hyrogliefs and all pre-historic pictograms in general.
 
Why? Because they simply orginate from the primitive drawings. Some primitive drawings were similar in different parts of the world, simply because people saw similar things.
 
exactly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2008 at 23:25
Originally posted by tkoletsis tkoletsis wrote:

Is this a random combination of lines too?

http://www.greek-thesaurus.gr/images/pub/Yangshao-vase.jpg
flat bottomed storage jar
Probably Gansu, Yangshao culture
Neolithic to early Bronze (circa , 3000-1500 BCE)
Buff-colored earthenware ornamented with appliques and black painted decorations
Cycladic spherical jug with spiral decoration from the same period
 


These are infinity symbols. In this form they are similar in many cultures. I would be definetely suprised if you found a clear maiander in chinese pottery, but personally i haven't seen one.

In the end of the day, what is your point? Communication between Greeks and Chinese that early?

My other question is...Has anyone made any chemical tests to determine if some of these Chinese and Greek pots are imports?

Third question...Are there any troubled archeologists out there talking about this?


Edited by Flipper - 11-Mar-2008 at 23:25


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