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Forum LockedHow is Tamerlane related to Genghis Khan?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 08:04
The question regarding Timurlane's ethnicity can easily be determined by what he wrote.


                     
"Biz ki Mülük-i Turan, Emir-i Türkistan'ız:
(We are the possessors of Turan and Emir of Turkestan)
Biz ki Türk oğlu Türk'üz;
(We are real Turks that are the sons of Turks)
Biz ki milletlerin en kadîmî ve en ulusu
(We are the members of the oldest and the highest nation)
Türk'ün başbuğuyuz!..."
(We are the leaders of Turks)



Or we can read what the famous Historian "Ibn Khaldun" wrote about him.



Ibn Khaldun explained that he had wanted to meet Tamerlane "for 30 or 40 years," because "you are the sultan of the universe and the ruler of the world, and I do not believe that there has appeared among men from Adam until this epoch a ruler like you." He then introduced his favorite theory, that 'asabiyah, group solidarity, was necessary for sovereignty, and the greater the number sharing the 'asabiyah , the greater the power of the sovereignty. "You know how the power of the Arabs was established when they became united in their religion in following their Prophet. As for the Turks ... in their group solidarity, no king on earth can be compared with them, not Chosroes nor Caesar nor Alexander nor Nebuchadnezzar."

We could go on and on its pretty clear he was and thought of himself as a Turk.

This confusion is made in the West because in that era little was known about the East and especially Central Asia/Turkistan as Timur himself referred to the area.

The same confusion is made with the "Mughals" in the West some seem to think they were Mongols, while Babur Khan explicitly wrote in his autobiography that he was a Turk, everyone in his town was a Turk and they all spoke Turki.

I don't understand why people don't listen and read what the people they're commenting about actually wrote it would save alot of pointless arguments.

Timur started as a Turkish shepard, he was extremely intellegent and a great pollitician, he married into an influencial family, called himself a descendant of Cengiz as a pollitical stunt and founded one of the greatest Empires and let the culture flourish.    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 08:43
Is,nt that like many stories which intelligent & opportunistic persons everywhere in the world are known to do ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote alish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2007 at 16:39
Temur was Uzbek. Uzbek is not the same Kazakh. Uzbek is the group of clans in Central Asia, the ruler clans(ruled kazahs too), one of them was Temur. Temur spoke Uzbek, lived in modern Uzbekistan, was born in modern Uzbekistan, and had the uzbek traditions, not Kazakh(which does not have so reach culture and not related to real Central Asian ruler clans).. Yes, some clans moved to Central Asia from the north, but hey, they spoke uzbek language with uzbek cultures, so, you got it... Kazakhs are other more mongolic turciks who denied to surve uzbek clans, and prefferd to be dogs for russians soon. And did not feel shame to attack Central Asia under the command of their russian lords in 1860s. Just for the record... take one of the poems of Babur(grand... grandson of Temur), and give yourself a question in what language it is written?. How about Husayn Boyqaro, the ruler of Modern Afghanistan....He wrote poems too. His best friend was Alisher Navoi... Their mother language was turkiy, which is directly modern UZBEK.... Remember!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Aug-2007 at 09:43

Biradar,

Temur was a Turk.
He spoke Turki and had it written in this biography.
Ali Sher Navoi also was a Turk, he wrote in Turki.
As was Babur khan and all the other leaders and important peoples you mentioned also are.
 
Does this mean they are not the descendants and forefathers of Ozbeks?
Ofcourse not.
 
As they are from todays Ozbekistan region, they were Turkic like Ozbeks are and their beautiful rich language is the root of todays Ozbek Turki.
 
Also Oz'bek Khan is part of Ozbek heritage.
However, also part of Kazak and Kipchaks heritage.
 
In other words, all Turkic history is Ozbeks heritage, being Turkic there is a tie to all of them.
 
Therefore there is no need to argue about Ozbek, Kazak etc its pointless and counter-productive.
 
Rahmat


Edited by Bulldog - 05-Aug-2007 at 10:49
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TugZy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-May-2009 at 22:30
Akskl,
I ve heard Tumur was from a barulas clan, which is still in modern Mongolia. But i am sure he was a tureg and he married a noble mongolian woman.
 Unfortunately there is another point irrelevant to the topic. I still wonder that there still exist such kazakhs who try to steal famous people from other nations. F.e.They even make a number of movies called , Genghis was kazakh, Genghis is ours, bla bla.  Its ridiculuous. And how wondering that even your president Nazarbaev talks to the radio that Genhghis was a kazakh!  We wont reject your relation with Genghis Khan if u really are, if not what a shame!. sTop this nonsense
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Basmachi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2009 at 02:00
Originally posted by alish alish wrote:

Temur was Uzbek. Uzbek is not the same Kazakh. Uzbek is the group of clans in Central Asia, the ruler clans(ruled kazahs too), one of them was Temur. Temur spoke Uzbek, lived in modern Uzbekistan, was born in modern Uzbekistan, and had the uzbek traditions, not Kazakh(which does not have so reach culture and not related to real Central Asian ruler clans).. Yes, some clans moved to Central Asia from the north, but hey, they spoke uzbek language with uzbek cultures, so, you got it... Kazakhs are other more mongolic turciks who denied to surve uzbek clans, and prefferd to be dogs for russians soon. And did not feel shame to attack Central Asia under the command of their russian lords in 1860s. Just for the record... take one of the poems of Babur(grand... grandson of Temur), and give yourself a question in what language it is written?. How about Husayn Boyqaro, the ruler of Modern Afghanistan....He wrote poems too. His best friend was Alisher Navoi... Their mother language was turkiy, which is directly modern UZBEK.... Remember!!!


In age of Amir Temur(Tamerlane), there wasn't a nation like Uzbeks. Then, all turkic people call themselves as Turks, not Turkic. But there was tribal diffrences. Amir Temur was a Karluk Turk. Before modern age, Turks divided by tribes like Oghuzs (modern Turkey, Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, NCTR etc.), Karluks (modern Uzbekistan, Karahanids on history), Kipchaks (modern Kazakhstan, Kyrgizstan etc.). And Amir Temur was a Karluk Turk.

He says:
"Biz kim millatlarning en qodimi Turkning bosh boghimiz" (I'm the Bashbugh (Great Leader for Turks) of the greatest nation, Turks)
"Yesterday is but today's memory, tomorrow is today's dream." (Khalil Gibran)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2009 at 20:59
well he was not Karluk, he spoke Chaghatay Turkish and considdered himself Turk but he descendet from a Mongol Clan.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Justurk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2009 at 21:40
Linguistically speaking Chaghatay Turkic is based on Qarluq dialects of Turkic language.
So he can be considered to be a Qarluq. 
Whether you call Turkish or Turkic, We are all Turks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2009 at 21:48
no i don't think so because Karluk means belonging to the Karluk tribe you don't change your nationality just because you speak a certain language, don't tell the Austrians they're German just because they speak German. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Basmachi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2009 at 08:08
There wasn't a clan named as Chaghatai. It's a dialect of Turkish which spoken by Uzbeks and Uyghurs. There was main clans like Karluks, Oghuzs, Kipchaks...
"Yesterday is but today's memory, tomorrow is today's dream." (Khalil Gibran)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2009 at 20:29
yeah i know there was no people called Chaghatay but that's the language that he spoke.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2009 at 23:05
Cagatay is another misnomer like Mughal is, these terms wern't used by the people which there attached to in the English language.
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