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Forum LockedHow do Latin Americans look

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SerHumano Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2009 at 03:55
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

One curious thing with many people here in Sweden is that they are white (almost literally) in the winter and brown in the summer. Some people that have very light blond hair and brown eyes can be more brown than south Europeans or middle easterners, after basking in the sun enough long time.
So maybe Swedes are only white people in the winter  :-)
 
The most blond people are the finnish, they have the highest percent of blondes in the world.
 
 
Pinguin doesn't refer to the abilitty to tan that many white people can have, but the natural skin tone of a blonde/fair haired  person from northern europe is 99% of times lighter than of a black/darkbrown haired brown eyed southern euro or non european which is often at least olive.  So we can't call white someone who isn't as simple as that.


Edited by SerHumano - 17-May-2009 at 03:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2009 at 05:16
Originally posted by Jams Jams wrote:

 
 
Lets not exaggerate the darkness of the Brits. Anything is relative,but there are plenty blonde Brits, by your standard of blond.
 
 
 
 
 
Exactly !
 
I think Latin Americans look vary region to region and country to country depending on the genetic components.
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2009 at 05:58
what doesn't vary is our definition of white, moorish, black, chinese, etc. Latin Americans have a good eye, and they apply it not only to Latin America, I am afraid. We see Europe and North America as an hybrid continents, in fact. I bet that idea rocks the foundation of Europeans concepts of "race"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2009 at 13:17
Originally posted by SerHumano SerHumano wrote:

 
Pinguin doesn't refer to the abilitty to tan that many white people can have, but the natural skin tone of a blonde/fair haired  person from northern europe is 99% of times lighter than of a black/darkbrown haired brown eyed southern euro or non european which is often at least olive.  So we can't call white someone who isn't as simple as that.
 
But the tan can easily give raise to mistakes, especially if tanned North europeans dye their hair dark. In a warm sunny climate you can never know who is tanned or who has a natural brown skin tone.
 
And many brits have actually a lighter skin tone (with or without tan) than many Scandinavians. And on Ireland people are very pale even from a Swedish point of view.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2009 at 13:29
 
This is a computer generated vision of how average North American people would maybe look in the future.
 
A larger image of this Time cover (The New Face of America Nov 18 1993) can be seen here:
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SerHumano Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2009 at 17:43
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

 
This is a computer generated vision of how average North American people would maybe look in the future.
 
A larger image of this Time cover (The New Face of America Nov 18 1993) can be seen here:
 
 
 
 
It surprises me since 13% of people in the states are black. And lets no forget many others which happens to be dark skinned. Anyways an average face of U.S  in 2009 would look more ethnic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2009 at 18:07
Indeed. If the United States would be fully mixed, it wouldn't look average Latino like that picture, but more like Dominican Republic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2009 at 18:59
A extra picture of authentic Caribs of Dominica. please open the picture
 
or
 
 
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 17-May-2009 at 19:08
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2009 at 19:22
Originally posted by SerHumano SerHumano wrote:

[
It surprises me since 13% of people in the states are black. And lets no forget many others which happens to be dark skinned. Anyways an average face of U.S  in 2009 would look more ethnic.
 
I actually know a girl who looks little like the girl on the Time cover. She is 25% black.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2009 at 23:33
Several items;  First, a couple of posts back, Mixcoatl posted this: "You do like Puerto Ricans? Then obviously they all have taíno blood running through their veins and their customs are authentically Amerindian."  I assume it was addressed to Pinguino, and I assume was a rhetorical question. Nevertheless, I should like to address it:

One of the characteristics of Puertorrican nationalism is the view that Puertorricans are a hybrid people, descended from Tainos, Spaniards, and African slaves. As a theoretical concept, it is as useful as "nos ancestres, les gaulois was to the development of French nationalism in the late 19th Century. The original concept dates back to a 19th Century romantic epic poem by Eugenio Maria de Hostos entitled "la Peregrinacion de Bayoan", which appealed to the belief that all Puertorricans were descended from Tainos. This reinforced de Hostos' vision of an "Antillean union" comprising Puerto RIco the Dominical Republic, and Cuba. De Hostos remains a giant on the list of "fathers of the nation", and later, the idea that Blacks also contributed to the Puertorrican mix also gained wide acceptance, particularly after the rise of Pedro Albizu Campos, a mulatto from Ponce who became in giant in the Nationalist Party in the 1930s. Actual Nationalist Party membership was always miniscule, but its ideas struck a strong chord among the majority of the islands intellectual class.  And thus the vision of Puertorricans as a unique blend of three races entered the island's subconscious, to the point that it was taught in the public schools.

It is not an erroneous idea per se, but as with all such constructs, it is overly simplistic. How pervasive it is was demonstrated a few years ago when a team from the University of Puerto Rico sought to take a genetic sampling of specific islands areas to discover the amount of "Taino" blood in the gene pool. The specific areas selected was a mountainous region between Yauco, Mayaguez, and Lares, two of which retained the name "La Indiera de ..." in the local geography. Persons selected were chosen based upon physical characteristics held to be generally common to native Americans. Of the entire carefully screened pool, only 6% showed a gene common to native Americans. In other words, the majority of persons who looked "Indian" were not.

Within days, on Island talk shows, and blog sites, those who favored a strong indigenous element within the Puertorrican genetic base were grandly proclaiming that "more than 30% of all Puertorricans had Taino blood." It got to the point that the authors of the study came out to emphasize that they had said no such thing. Little matter.

The first flaw I saw in the study was it's simplistic assumption that any Indian chromozomes were automatically "Taino". There was never a people in the Caribbean who called themselves "Taino". Rather niTaino was a word for one of the four classes of persons who constituted their ethnic group. The others were Priests, Chiefs, and Slaves. The word was applied to the people as a whole by later Spaniards. Those who studied Puertorrican history (a minority on the island) would note that by the 1540s, the "Tainos" no longer existed on the island, which was underpopulated to the point that the governor declared it a capital offense for any military age male attempt to leave the island to emigrate to Peru.  Yet "Indians" show up on the census as late as the late 1700s. Therefore Tainos must have survived. Perhaps. But Puerto Rico was also the recipient of native American slaves. The Spanish in Mexico shipped Indian slaves to Cuba, Hispaniola, and Puerto Rico for labor. Generally, these were prisoners taken in varying rebellions against the crown, or who had committed some other serious offense. The nacsent Americans also shipped out the prisoners from King Phillips War to the "Spanish Indies". Unsurprisingly, there is even a family from Yabucoa whose last name is "Moctezuma". So, the fact that there is some "Indian" genetic base in Puerto Rico hardly constitutes evidence that the "Tainos" survived. Moreover, during the Latin American wars of independence, many refugees from modern day Colombia, Veneuela, Mexico, and Peru were allowed to resettle in Puerto Rico and Cuba. Indeed, the town of Lajas, in southwest Puerto Rico, was largely settled by such families from Venezuela. Many of these families were Mestizo, and thus brought an even larger slice of the native American gene pool in with them. They arrived early in the century that Puerto Rico was to see its population grow exponentially. The Carlist Wars in Spain sent waves of Spanish immigrants into the Caribbean. The French Wars sent a wave of Corsicans across the Atlantic. Then, with Italy's wars of reunification, further waves arrived. At one time, it was claimed that fully one third of all Puertorrican names are Italian in origin. Possibly true, but the real question is did its original owner enter Puerto Rico as a Spanish soldier (southern Italy was for a long time governed by the Hapsburgs, i.e., Carlos V, Felipe II, etc.), as an Italian sailor in the service of Spain, as an Italian immigrant, or as a Corsican? My point here is that "Spaniard - Black - Taina" vision of Puerto Rico's ethnic mix is overly simplistic and seriously flawed. It's most obvious proof? Not a single Puertorrican Historian can even translate the word "Boriquen" into Spanish. We know it as the name of the Island. We even know that the Carib word for Puerto Rico was "Obao Moin", or "Island of Blood". But no one ever recorded what Boriquen meant in Spanish. That, of course, has not stopped the Islands pseudo-historians from inventing fanciful translations and putting them in their web sites. Not has it prevented the particularly imaginative from creating Taino theme parks, with various mystic new age religious ceremonies allegedly handed down orally from generation to generation in their family. But, hey at least we did get "Turey el Taino" in the sunday comic strips.

For what it's worth.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2009 at 01:38
Interesting tesis. However, I don't see the point with respect to the thread, and with respect to this subtread about the definition of "whiteness"
 
With respect to the Tainos, at least in Cuba there is written references to the extinction by intermarriage there. So, the idea that Tainos become extinct should be revised, particularly when genetics shows high level of Amerinian genetics not only in Puerto Rico, but also in Cuba and Dominican Republic. Besides, how many natives wives and children accompanied the conquistadors to Mexico? Archeological evidence show there were many. 
 
I found your post so interesting I open a thread with it, called: Cosmic Race concepts in Latin America.
 
 
Why? Because the Puerto Rican concept is not alone. That idea exist in DR, Mexico, Chile, Brazil and in many other countries of latinoamerica, if not in all.
 


Edited by pinguin - 18-May-2009 at 02:35
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2009 at 10:01
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 
With respect to the Tainos, at least in Cuba there is written references to the extinction by intermarriage there. So, the idea that Tainos become extinct should be revised, particularly when genetics shows high level of Amerinian genetics not only in Puerto Rico, but also in Cuba and Dominican Republic. Besides, how many natives wives and children accompanied the conquistadors to Mexico? Archeological evidence show there were many. 
 
I think one must separate the issues about if the Tainos still live in form of genes that are incorporated in todays mainstream population, in areas where Tainos once lived, from the exctincion of the Tainos as a particular people (or peoples) with their own culture and traditions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2009 at 15:51
Everybody knows half the native cultures and languages of the Americas were wiped out. We shouldn't confusse that, though, with extermination of people. Assimilation, education and westernization have most of the blame.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2009 at 16:52
Pebbles, The earliest wave of Cuban immigrants to arrive in the United States were fleeing the Ten Years War, related to Spanish suppression of the Cuban war for Independence. Many of those went to New York. I believe Tampa's "Ybor City" was founded when the second wave arrived in the 1890s. Castro's revolution would have produced the third wave. Of course, Cuban immigration to the U.S. was not limited to these "waves". Desi Arnaz, just to cite an example, was already well established in the U.S. when Fidel came to power. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2009 at 17:05
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

We shouldn't confusse that, though, with extermination of people. Assimilation, education and westernization have most of the blame.


Pinguino, I would have stated: "Assimilation, education, and westernization share most of the credit."

I see their absorption into the general population as a positive development, allowing them greater life expectancy, a higher standard of living, and greater opportunities. When I look at Latin America, geography certainly does a lot to explain why the Spanish speaking vice-royalties fractured into as many countries as they did (unlike Brazil, which held together). But, I also suspect that the indigenous contribution to the various populations (or lack thereof in the case of the "whiter" countries) influenced their decision to strike out on their own, rather than remaining unified. (and, yes, there were a host of other socio-economic factors involved) 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2009 at 17:24
Pinguino, How does 6% of a very small population base, selected for their physical appearance to Indians, living high in the mountains in what was historically an "Indian" area, justify your assertion that "genetics shows high level of Amerinian genetics not only in Puerto Rico, but also in Cuba and Dominican Republic."?

Where is this study?  Would you please provide a link? (If I missed it, I apologize)

And again, when you check the history, while there may be a respectable percentage of Amerindian genes among the Puertorrican population at large, it is erroneous to presume that it is "Taino". Given Puerto Rico's history, those genes stand a higher chance of having their origin in Mexico, Yucatan, northern South America, or New England.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2009 at 17:28
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

....
Pinguino, I would have stated: "Assimilation, education, and westernization share most of the credit."

I see their absorption into the general population as a positive development, allowing them greater life expectancy, a higher standard of living, and greater opportunities. When I look at Latin America, geography certainly does a lot to explain why the Spanish speaking vice-royalties fractured into as many countries as they did (unlike Brazil, which held together). But, I also suspect that the indigenous contribution to the various populations (or lack thereof in the case of the "whiter" countries) influenced their decision to strike out on their own, rather than remaining unified. (and, yes, there were a host of other socio-economic factors involved) 


The reason why the Spanish Empire fragmented and the Lusitanian Empire didn't it is relatively easy to see: the break down with the Spanish Empire was very violent, and took a longer time to happens. In comparison, Brazil independency was a relatively smooth process, similar to the pass from dominion to independent country that happened in Canada.

Besides, Spain didm't have a single colony in the Americas, but many. The main divisions were Cuba, the Viceroyalty of New Spain (Mexico, Central America), the Viceroyalty of Peru (South America). From that starting point fragmentation continued further.

The Independency movements started in parallel in places like Mexico, Venezuela and Argentina, and it lasted from 1810 to the middle of the 19th century. Even more, Cuba wasn't independent up to the Spanish American war, and Puerto Rico never become independent!

So, no wonder Hispanic America couldn't build a single entity, unlike Canada, Brazil or the United States.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2009 at 20:29
Any relations



TO:





Would you like to be my nieghbor!!!
Well then, brothers and fellow citizens and soldiers, remember this in order that your memorial, your fame and freedom will be eternal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2009 at 21:12
Pinguino,

I found the second study on "Taino dna". It does clarify a few points. First, their master sample is from four skeletons discovered in the 1980s which radiocarbon has dated as from the 7th century. Second, the "RUM" (UPR of Mayaguez) testing was for mtDNA, not Y chromosome. Thus, it could only reveal if the person had a single maternal Taino ancestor within the past 500 years. More extensive Y chromosome testing would be necessary to determine the percentage of Amerindian ancestry versus that of African or European ancestry Third, , the first test group was "unrepresentative" in that only 33 persons were tested, of whom 23 evidenced Taino ancestry. The second testing involved randomly chosen subjects, one each from of 781 households (out of a 4 million total population). The results of that survey was (in 2001, I can find nothing more recent): Of the 300 samples mtDNA samples until then: 62% as having an Amerindian mother somewhere up the chain, 30% had a Black mother somewhere up the chain, and 8% had a Caucasian mother somewhere up the chain. Its author went on to caution that in Belen, Brazil, similar mtDNA testing identified 59% of the contemporary population as Amerindian, while Y chromosome testing identified only "less than 5% of the same population as Amerindian.

So, the DNA material does exist to show "Taino" DNA. And, if the "representative" slice of the population holds true, 62% of all Puertorricans have had at least one female ancestor within the past 500 years who was a "Taina". Obviously, that does NOT exclude them from having a whole lot of other mixture in their genetic soup, nor does it make them "Tainos". Such a finding is not surprising. In my old adopted home town, the names of those who had arrived in 1508 were alive and well, and many of their descendants still owned most of everything. There were even Ponce de Leons a few towns over, descendants of the first governor's daughter whose husband had adopted her family name. So, a few Taino women could very well be the progenitors of a gene pool numbering in the tens of thousands.



Edited by lirelou - 18-May-2009 at 21:19
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2009 at 04:43
Well, that's very interesting. However, it is nothing new. It is simply the history of Lstin America, and we knew it even before the DNA analysis were in fashion. It is simply obvious that in a culture like ours, mainly Hispanic in language, religion, customs, traditions, etc. (the male part of culture, if you wish), you find so many femenine arts of indigenous origin. Our love for Amerindian textiles, and Amerindian recipees, is easy to explain when you realize most Latinos have an Amerindian woman in theirs family trees.
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