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Forum LockedHow do Latin Americans look

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    Posted: 02-May-2009 at 09:57
Originally posted by pinguin

 
 
Have you ever seen Spaniards? I do. Some of them are darker than the natives of Cuzco.
 
By the way, don't tell me "white" Americans are pure europeans either. Many have obvious non-european admixtures.
 
 
 
Yes ... several as a matter of fact.First 2 back in high school,1 America-born counselor who was very tall and dark and head janitor there.I thought both were Mexicans or Chicanos until I overheard my teacher referred them as " Spaniard " and she spoke to the janitor in Spanish.They did look European not mixed.
 
Most American-Whites do have little Amerindian admix,but they're undisputed predominately European.US's past racial segregation attributed to this result.
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by pebbles - 02-May-2009 at 10:01
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-May-2009 at 10:08
Originally posted by pebbles

...
Most American-Whites do have little Amerindian admix,but they're undisputed predominately European.US's past racial segregation attributed to this result.
 
 
.... Sure... If you say so.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Mixcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-May-2009 at 12:24
So if I understand you correctly you are saying these people do not look very different? That the lady in the first picture could just as well have been indigenous and the people in the second picture look like soap actors or newscasters?


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-May-2009 at 16:04
I don't think Spaniards look like the people in this video, tough.
(Guatemalan Mayans - opressed by other Mayans who have been forced into civil patrols and military)


Edited by Jams - 02-May-2009 at 16:11
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Post Options Post Options   Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-May-2009 at 16:24
I went out for a couple beers last night a Chilean girl. She is pretty proud of being Hispanic, but her skin is more fair then mine, granted I've been working in the sun lately. She also has green eyes. Going by what pinguin is saying, you wouldn't know she was Hispanic, but she seems to like to make it clear when you talk to her lol.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-May-2009 at 19:36
Originally posted by lirelou

I have to agree with gcle on this one. Too subjective. I believe Octavio Paz' point in referring to his own race as the "raza cosmica" was to underscore the fact that such a wide variety of racial and racially mixed groups can share the same citizenship and culture.
The concept of the raza cosmica came from Jose Vasconcelos, a Mexican intellectual who created the modern education system. Paz was probably referencing him.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-May-2009 at 20:40
Originally posted by Mixcoatl

So if I understand you correctly you are saying these people do not look very different? That the lady in the first picture could just as well have been indigenous and the people in the second picture look like soap actors or newscasters?
 
Exactly. That's exactly what I say. Not only Amerindian blood is widespread in the mainstream, even in the upper classes, but all populations in Latin America overlap. Even more, not all Indigenous people look Amerindian these days. Just look at Commander Marcos, the rebel from Chiapas indigenous movement, the Zapatistas, and ask yourself why he doesn't show his face. I bet one of the reason is that he doesn't look Mayan whatsoever Confused
 
 
Yeap. He looks as indigenous as the Che Guevara LOL
 
Common Amerindians with "European" aspect:
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-May-2009 at 21:27
Famous "Indigenous" people that "crossed":
 
Oswaldo Guayasamin, Ecuador, painter
 
 
Mercedes Sosa, Argentina, singer
 
 
Elicura Chihuailaf, Chile, billingual poet:
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-May-2009 at 21:33

Originally posted by SearchAndDestroy

I went out for a couple beers last night a Chilean girl. She is pretty proud of being Hispanic, but her skin is more fair then mine, granted I've been working in the sun lately. She also has green eyes. Going by what pinguin is saying, you wouldn't know she was Hispanic, but she seems to like to make it clear when you talk to her lol.

Curious. If you are just a bit darker than average Chileans, you would be called "negro" down here or in Argentina ConfusedConfused... No kidding.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-May-2009 at 21:35

Originally posted by SearchAndDestroy

I went out for a couple beers last night a Chilean girl. She is pretty proud of being Hispanic, but her skin is more fair then mine, granted I've been working in the sun lately. She also has green eyes. Going by what pinguin is saying, you wouldn't know she was Hispanic, but she seems to like to make it clear when you talk to her lol.

Curious. If you are just a bit darker than average Chileans, you would be called "negro" down here or in Argentina ConfusedConfused... No kidding.

"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Mixcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-May-2009 at 21:37
Originally posted by pinguin

Exactly. That's exactly what I say. Not only Amerindian blood is widespread in the mainstream, even in the upper classes, but all populations in Latin America overlap.

There's a difference between having some Amerindian blood and being Amerindian. If you are an indigenous Mexican (and look indigenous) there's no way you can ever become an attractive soap hero. The fact that even Swedish-looking soap stars may have some Amerindian ancestry does not disprove that fact.

Even more, not all Indigenous people look Amerindian these days. Just look at Commander Marcos, the rebel from Chiapas indigenous movement, the Zapatistas, and ask yourself why he doesn't show his face. I bet one of the reason is that he doesn't look Mayan whatsoever Confused

Of course Marcos doesn't look Mayan, because he is not a Maya. He's not even from Chiapas, but from Tamaulipas. AFAIK he has never even claimed he is indigenous.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-May-2009 at 21:45
Originally posted by Jams

I don't think Spaniards look like the people in this video, tough.
(Guatemalan Mayans - opressed by other Mayans who have been forced into civil patrols and military)
 
See the movie carefully. I bet the kid whom Rigoberta Menchu touch at the head, probably a relative, doesn't look very far from Spaniards, either.
 
I don't know what is your idea of Spaniards or Italians, but although they have some blonds and blue eyed people, most of them are light brown, and not few are straight brown. As I said before, many Spaniards won't be noticed as foreigners in most places of Latin America, while a "gringo" tall blond person would call the attention at once.
 
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-May-2009 at 21:56
Originally posted by Mixcoatl


There's a difference between having some Amerindian blood and being Amerindian. If you are an indigenous Mexican (and look indigenous) there's no way you can ever become an attractive soap hero. The fact that even Swedish-looking soap stars may have some Amerindian ancestry does not disprove that fact.
 
It well may be. However, most Mexicans don't meet both conditions at the same time. The Mexicans that look Indigenous and are really Indigenous make a small minority in that country, and the point was if Mexican TV shows the realities of the majorities.
 
In any case, it could be that Mexican TV is like the Bill Cosby show. The time you see a pure "African" in that show, and not the common mulattoes that they select, it will be a time to celebrate LOLLOL 
 
Originally posted by Mixcoatl


Of course Marcos doesn't look Mayan, because he is not a Maya. He's not even from Chiapas, but from Tamaulipas. AFAIK he has never even claimed he is indigenous.
 
I see, he maybe just another "indigenist" that reads Guevara and follow Castro's instructions...Confused
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-May-2009 at 23:56
Originally posted by pinguin

Originally posted by Jams

I don't think Spaniards look like the people in this video, tough.
(Guatemalan Mayans - opressed by other Mayans who have been forced into civil patrols and military)
 
See the movie carefully. I bet the kid whom Rigoberta Menchu touch at the head, probably a relative, doesn't look very far from Spaniards, either.
 
I don't know what is your idea of Spaniards or Italians, but although they have some blonds and blue eyed people, most of them are light brown, and not few are straight brown. As I said before, many Spaniards won't be noticed as foreigners in most places of Latin America, while a "gringo" tall blond person would call the attention at once.
 
 
 
Yes, that particular kid, but most of them look very different from Spaniards - I mean not the city people, but the Maya. I do know how Spanish people look, and that they're sometimes quite dark. It's obvious that they would be less noticable than some light skin blonde person, because a blond person would stick out completely - and he would be noticed from very far away.
 
I was searching for Mayan, when I saw this video. The reason I found it was that they mentioned something about Mayan in the text. But Pinguin, I'd say that Spaniards can look more NA than some of these people do!  which is kind of even more noticable because they have Irene Bedard as an entertainer, and some southern guy at the end of the video, showing the stark contrast.
 


Edited by Jams - 03-May-2009 at 01:09
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-May-2009 at 02:05
Indeed. Mayans don't look Spaniard. But Mexicans in general don't look Mayan or Spaniard but with all the varieties in between. So, it makes sense that most people shown on TV belongs to the largest majorities. From my experience in Lat Am TV, it is not strange, either, that pure Amerindian looking people shows on TV. However, dressing as Europeans and wearing executive suits. It is more common, though, to see them in the news and other activities rather than at the time prime on soap operas.
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-May-2009 at 04:54
Originally posted by lirelou

The dance is in Taos, New Mexico. And if the dancers are from New Mexico, then chances are that they are Aztec wannabees. I respect their desire to know about their past, but there is very little chance that they are descended from Aztecs. The troops who conquered New Mexico were Tlaxcalan. The great majority of "Nortenos" are descended fron either Tlaxcalans or Tarascans, and yes, I am aware of previous posts on "Tarascans".  You can also find such troupes in the "zocalo". They are a modern phenomen, not unlike the Anglos all dressed up in robes and whatever, claiming to represent pre-Christian Europe. Except for their genes, they are little different from Boy Scout troops who dress up as "native Americans" for Thanksgiving pageants. 


Furthermore, this is a modern interpretation on the dances. I grew up watching people who did this kind of dances on the annual big religious procession, so I have a pretty good idea of what it looks like.

The dances were a bit off from the start. However, what really gave them away was when the dancers, in a line, did the do si do .

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Post Options Post Options   Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-May-2009 at 04:56
Originally posted by pinguin

Indeed. There are some people, in places like Mexico, who wants to recall Aztec customs back to life. However, they are authentic modern Mexicans as much as the Mayas of Chiapas. People also forgets that Indigenous pure groups are a minority in Mexico these days and that most people is mixed.


The point is clear, the people that shows on TV are representative of Mexicans.


Anyways, here there are Nahuatl speaking natives, relatives of the real Aztecs:

 






 

As you can see, physically they are not that different from average Mexican. The division is in culture, and specially in the levels of poverty that affect native americans. There there is a big wall that still has to be turned down.

 


Yes, and these people soooo similar to the picture of actors that you posted on the other thread.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-May-2009 at 05:02
Originally posted by lirelou

Yes, you can find real nahuatl speaking Mexicans right in front of the hotel next to the U.S. Embassy. But they are just one of many ethnicities that makes up Mexico. There is an ethnic division in Mexico that is greater than Chollos versus Indios, and that is Nortenos versus those who are not Norteno. Nortenos see themselves as the powerhouse of Mexico. They produce the goods that bring Mexico foreign exchange. And they pay the taxes that keep the Mexican state afloat. "Chilangos" despise and loath the Nortenos, but the Nortenos don't really care. They live in their own neighborhoods, frequent their own clubs, listen to their own music, and generally prefer a cuisine common to Northern Mexico. They also have a preference for Tecate beer. Many of the Nortenos are, genetically, Indians, but their culture is shared with Mestizos, and even the "Espanolitos" of long established families. They are the powerhouse nof Mexico, and the truth of the matter is that they have a lot more in common with Anglo Texans, than they do the denizens of Mexico City.Of course, the majority of Texans fail to recognize this. They share the same territory, eat the same kinds of food, listen to music whose only real difference is the language in which it is sung, driunk the same beers and tequila, wear the same kind of clothes, hats, and boots, and attend the same kjind of churches on Sunday morning. They even drive the same brand and type of vehicles. Yet the Anglo Texans see themselves as unique, but not Nortenos. The Nortenos see themselves as unique, but not Anglo Tejanos. Yet they both share common, yet disputed, culural aspects. Just some thoughts for you Pinguino. As you know, I've never been in Chile, yet I suspect that you know some Chileans who are much like these "Texans" and "Tejanos". Thank God the world is a fascinating place. We will never be bored.


You are right. I will correct a minor mistake. Most of the revenue that the Mexican state has comes from oil, not from taxes. There is rampant tax evasion on Mexico, and you must remember, and it is especially strong among the wealthier people. One of the horrible proposals of Lopez Obrador was to strengthen the tax collecting agency, Hacienda, to find tax evadors.

How long did you live in Mexico? Are you Mexican? You get the country. There are at least two or three more people around here with an interest in Mexico and Mexican history
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-May-2009 at 05:46
Originally posted by hugoestr

...Yes, and these people soooo similar to the picture of actors that you posted on the other thread.
 
What is so different from your point of view?
 
They have the same facial features, the same straight black hair, the same dark eyes, the same thin lips, the same rounded faces. Yes, indigenous country women are shorter and usually fatter as well. Besides, they are exposed all day long to the sun, so they are usually darker than city fellows, and (if you know about Amerindians), the color of skin vary dramatically between people heavily exposed to the sun and who aren't, in "races" other than nordics and blacks (people you guys are accustumed to see in North America and Europe) skin color is more constant.
 
So, what's the difference?
 
In Latin America we usually pay a lot more attention to facial features than simply skin color as you guys do elsewhere. We pay a lot of attention to the shape of the noses, because give us a lot more information about origins than other clues. The line of the hair is also an interesting clue (black ancestry has wide forefronts, caucasians in the middle and natives narrow and very particularly shaped hair.
 
With all these antecedents at hand, it is a lot easier to know the relation between people that just looking the degree of poverty in subjects, the cleaness, the tipical dresses, or the facial expresions (natives don't usually smile; they don't have a reason for doing so)
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 03-May-2009 at 05:54
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Post Options Post Options   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-May-2009 at 20:07
Hugo, I studied Mexican history in university, live for five years in Texas (El Paso, and near Austin), used to own property outside McAllen, and was posted to the U.S. Embassy in Mexico City for two and a half years. 
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