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Forum LockedHow come europeans don't do american football?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bernard Woolley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2008 at 03:41

I think at least part of the reason for American football's popularity (and part of the reason I dislike it) has to be that it's one of the most militaristic sports around. Although there's an element of playing war to all sports, American football takes this to an extreme and I can see why it might have appeal in one of the few western countries where military values still garner great respect.

The frequent stoppages that we all hate (speaking for the gridiron sceptics) keep the play from getting at all wild or unruly, making the game a contest of discipline and competent repetition rather than invention. It's also a rigidly hierarchical game, where everyone has to do exactly as told by the quarterback or coach and avoid taking individual initiative.

I consider the game a boring, creativity-crushing exercise that's more fun for coaches than for players, and which fails to teach the kids who play it any decision-making or improvisational skills. That said, if I was a different type of person than I am (I have trouble taking direction, for one thing), I'm sure there's plenty there to appreciate.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kaysaar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2008 at 04:06
Originally posted by JanusRook JanusRook wrote:


I don't think football is the only sport that has that idea.



I will grant you that, but just from my life experience, it always seemed most pronounced in football players.

Originally posted by JanusRook JanusRook wrote:


The stops are there to make sure the game isn't tedious. I mean in soccer a good strategy when you have the lead is to kick the ball sideways and backwards. You don't see too many lateral passes going on in American football when a team has the lead, in American football you are always advancing forward.


I find the stops tedious because I prefer sports that are more fluid, rather than sports that are essentially turn based. For example, I play Ultimate Frisbee . In Ultimate, like in soccer, there are times when you indeed pass backwards to be able to attack. It's like in Basketball when one player drives to the basket, then they kick it out to three point line. It's a step back to be able to reset the offense and attack again. The attacking team may go backwards, but they are always in motion, and fluidly moving and adapting.

I feel this is the most subjective aspect of sports, and that neither of us will acquiesce...TongueLOL
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Originally posted by JanusRook JanusRook wrote:



Ever heard of Sumo Wrestlers, and of how they are some of the healthiest people on the planet? The fat is there because the muscles are so large that the fat has nowhere else to go. Have you ever seen those MetRx Strongest Man competitions, I don't recall many of them being particularly svelte.



Aside from the diabetes, joint and bone damage for being morbidly obese of course...

Originally posted by JanusRook JanusRook wrote:


Actually it's not overlooked, the NFL has the oldest and most strict drug abuse policy in professional sports. In fact a new rule was passed where a playing caught using a banned substance cannot get elected to the pro bowl. So trust me the NFL does not condone steroid use in any way.


I'm well aware of the fact that the NFL as an official entity does not condone steroid use - they'd be daft if they did. I find not being able to be elected to the pro-bowl to be a slap on the wrist. So they can't be elected to the pro-bowl... that's not all that big of a deal when you consider that only a fraction of the NFL's players will actually have the opportunity. 

Here's some food for thought that can sum up my sentiments: http://openmike.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/12/06/499136.aspx. The media machine seems to overlook the same offenses that it condemns in Baseball.


Edited by Kaysaar - 16-Dec-2008 at 04:07
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2008 at 09:37
Originally posted by JanusRook JanusRook wrote:


You're telling me you wouldn't enjoy seeing this at your team's soccer game?






I for sure wouldn't. When I go to see a football game, I go to see the game. Would I ever want to go watch girls jumping around in ridiculous outfits I would go somewhere else.


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NFL Europe is now disbanded. Although as I understand it there is a national league in Germany as well as a few Scandanavian/Baltic nations.

Yes, there is one here at least. I can't name a single team in it though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2008 at 16:47
Originally posted by Bernard Woolley Bernard Woolley wrote:

I think at least part of the reason for American football's popularity (and part of the reason I dislike it) has to be that it's one of the most militaristic sports around. Although there's an element of playing war to all sports, American football takes this to an extreme and I can see why it might have appeal in one of the few western countries where military values still garner great respect.

Maybe the game itself, but I'd have to say that association football as a cultural phenomena seems far more like tribal warfare, especially the behaviour of the fans. American football fans, of course, have rivalries between each other which sometimes even become violent, but it just doesn't approach the primitive, tribalistic frenzy that seems to surround association football. There've been cases of mobs murdering team members who didn't live up to expectations (I think it was in Colombia?) and of course, a huge amount of fan violence surrounds the game.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2008 at 17:06
Professional gridiron became popular because of TV. Early TV sets were, may we say, crappy. It was hard to see the screen. I was hard to follow a baseball game over TV (Hockey is almost impossible to follow on TV, or it was before HDTV. Maybe it is better now.)

No so with gridiron. Gridiron showed well on TV. And my suspicions is that the frequent stops have a lot more to do with TV asking for spots where to play commercials.

Once again, I don't really like the game, but I do want to defend several aspects of it. It is fun to play if you don't attempt to play it the way the pros do, meaning, that you run the ball rather than pass it (I had to read a book to discover this). It is one of the most interesting team games from a tactical point of view. And it is a lot of fun, especially when playing coed.

I also want to ad that the rule of dropping the game where the ball was last played is very organic with its rubgy tradition/origin. When I was teaching my daughter a boiled down version of rugby, she came up with the rule of continuing the game from where the ball was last played.

Now, I really wouldn't mind having the cowboy cheerleaders in a soccer game to make things merry before and during half time
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Parnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2008 at 17:43
Respectfully, cheerleaders are a ridiculous phenonomom, an indication of the dumbing down of American society and which has no place in modern sport. If I wanted to see semi naked women dance like that I'd go on to redtube.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2008 at 18:53
Originally posted by xristar xristar wrote:

Former Yugoslavia has indeed spawned some of the best basketball national teamsin europe. In Greece basketball lost much of it status after the Fiba-Uleb thing
 
Basketball is maybe even more popular than football in Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia. In Poland volleyball is close second to football.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2008 at 19:42
Originally posted by JanusRook JanusRook wrote:


Temujin, is there a German league team you support, or an NFL team that you support?


i would say Oakland Raiders. the local American football scene is pretty obscure, the only team i know is Frankfurt Galaxy which constantly wins every year, at leats back when i last checked.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2008 at 21:59
Originally posted by Parnell Parnell wrote:

Respectfully, cheerleaders are a ridiculous phenonomom, an indication of the dumbing down of American society and which has no place in modern sport. If I wanted to see semi naked women dance like that I'd go on to redtube.


Why not have the best of both worlds
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Justinian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2008 at 02:54

This has become a pretty interesting thread.  I see the equipment issue being raised a lot, just a comment on that; speaking from experience, the fun of playing with equipment is you don't have to keep holding back, compared to a pickup game with friends or peers.  In the latter case, when playing tackle, you have to moderate yourself, not hit full speed etc.  Unlike rugby where you, in essence, play football without pads or rules for that matter, now that is a sport one gets injured in.  To be fair, I enjoyed that sport as well, its basically a huge brawl.  (as is evident we usually didn't play regulation rules)  With the pads you can let go, you can let out all the frustration on the opposing team and not give much or any concern to hurting anyone.  That is the joy of it, its a release from day to day life; respecting others, not fighting, you get to ignore all the annoying societal restraints imposed on you the rest of the time.

I agree with whoever mentioned it being militaristic, there are parallels.  Also the clear winner and loser; Janus is absolutely correct in that fitting the american mindset.  I recall the movie Patton, where he's giving the speech on americans loving a winner and such.  Then whoever mentioned soccer being played here when one is a kid, and growing up and going into other sports.  Also completely true, actually I was one of those kids.  I use to play soccer in elementary school on the playground, (besides other sports) I then switched to football when I got older.  For me personally, there are too many restraints in soccer, only being able to use your legs etc., and its too simplistic, not enough rules. (amusing as that sounds)  I think its because the view here is soccer is a little kids game, easy to learn and involving little skill to play (the irony of this statement, and how often its being used does not escape) etc.  Whereas as you grow you're ready for more intricate sports; baseball, football, hockey etc.


Edited by Justinian - 17-Dec-2008 at 03:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bernard Woolley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2008 at 03:04

Originally posted by edgewaters edgewaters wrote:

Maybe the game itself, but I'd have to say that association football as a cultural phenomena seems far more like tribal warfare, especially the behaviour of the fans. American football fans, of course, have rivalries between each other which sometimes even become violent, but it just doesn't approach the primitive, tribalistic frenzy that seems to surround association football. There've been cases of mobs murdering team members who didn't live up to expectations (I think it was in Colombia?) and of course, a huge amount of fan violence surrounds the game.

Yes, association football is tribalistic, like all team sports, but what I meant was that American football is uniquely militaristic - it's unusual in that each player's role is extremely specific, it's unusual in that one player on each team is charged with telling the other players what to do, and it's unusual in that the rules force each play to be a controlled scenario. The only explanation I have for why anyone would enjoy either playing or watching this game is that they are fascinated by military drill.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Parnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2008 at 03:55
oh come on, soccer involves 10,000 times more skill than American Football. American football is about learning attack and defence 'routines', football is about the heart and soul.
 
Here is the final two games of Manchester Uniteds Champions league campaign in their famous 'treble' season, 1998/1999.
 
Man UTD. 3 Juventus 2
 
Man Utd came from 2-0 down and surely been knocked out of the Champions League at the Semi Final stage. One man prevented United from going out at this crucial stage and to lead the side to their first champions league final since 1968 - Roy Keane.
 
 
Man Utd. 2 Bayern Munich 1
 
Man Utd. in their first champions league final since 1968. The first English side to reach the final since Liverpool in the 80s (I think) Bayern lead one nil for most of the game only for a lanky Teddy and a baby faced assassin to steal the match and the trophy at the death.
 
 
And just to show the longevity of football as a sport and institution, where simplicity of the beautiful game exists independent of stupid set rules and militaristic formations, here's a game from 1901:
 
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2008 at 04:12
Don't mention that Champoions Leauge finale between Bayern Munich and Man United. :(. It was so close. I was sitting there cheering thinking yes! we are about to win... then that idiot goes for a corner kick instead of kicking out to center field and then 2 1. :(. Sad day for a Bayern fan.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ulrich von hutten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2008 at 17:25
Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:

Don't mention that Champoions Leauge finale between Bayern Munich and Man United. :(. It was so close. I was sitting there cheering thinking yes! we are about to win... then that idiot goes for a corner kick instead of kicking out to center field and then 2 1. :(. Sad day for a Bayern fan.
 
But a lucky day for a Dortmund fan.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2008 at 19:02
Originally posted by ulrich von hutten ulrich von hutten wrote:

Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:

Don't mention that Champoions Leauge finale between Bayern Munich and Man United. :(. It was so close. I was sitting there cheering thinking yes! we are about to win... then that idiot goes for a corner kick instead of kicking out to center field and then 2 1. :(. Sad day for a Bayern fan.
 
But a lucky day for a Dortmund fan.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2008 at 20:21
Originally posted by ulrich von hutten ulrich von hutten wrote:

Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:

Don't mention that Champoions Leauge finale between Bayern Munich and Man United. :(. It was so close. I was sitting there cheering thinking yes! we are about to win... then that idiot goes for a corner kick instead of kicking out to center field and then 2 1. :(. Sad day for a Bayern fan.
 
But a lucky day for a Dortmund fan.


a good day for everyone who dislikes Bayern! Thumbs%20Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Parnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2008 at 20:25
I was a young man utd. fan in those days (My first memory of football is Eric Cantona scoring the winner in a FA cup final, back in 1995 or 1995.) nowadays I've been much more cynical about 'supporting' a club. I always find it hard to believe that an Irishman can support an English club, when the vast majority of us have never even attended a premiership game. A lot of my love in football is wrapped up in a sort of fuzzy headed, roy of the rovers, david v goliath fluffy romanticism. Like Nick Hornby's Fever Pitch (A very good book!) I don't think that someone who doesn't follow 'his' side in the terraces can ever be much of a fan...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King Kang of Mu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2008 at 20:31
Sorry, es_bih, it looks like you are outnumbered here.   I wouldn't go as far as I hate Bayern, I can name handful of German teams I like or support before I get to Bayern, starting with Bremen, Dortmund, Sttutgart even Leverkusen and Hamburg.  Nothing againt you though, es_bih.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2008 at 20:54
es_bih, if it makes you feel any better, I also felt the same way with you. I have never been a Bayern fan, but man i was annoyed back then. I hated (and still despise) Manchester United.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2008 at 21:18
LOL

It's ok the good are always disliked lol


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