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Achilles View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Achilles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2006 at 08:17
Raider i know Slavonia is now part of modern day Croatia, i was wondering about the past
Der Erste hat den Tod,
Der Zweite hat die Not,
Der Dritte erst hat Brot.

Fur immer frei und ungeteilt
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Socrates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2006 at 06:58
Originally posted by Achilles Achilles wrote:

Originally posted by Socrates Socrates wrote:

Originally posted by Maljkovic Maljkovic wrote:

Ah, more lies from the Serbian imperialist Jay...

The truth is that Serbian presence in Vojvodina dates only as far as the 18. century. Serbs became a majority only after WWII, when all the local Germans and a lot of Hugarians, Romanian and Croats were expelled and replaced with Serbs from central Serbia. 

 
Ohhh...You croatian darlings and your volksdeutschers again...ain't that sweet....LOL....Well-guess what-they had it coming-and not just in serbia, but also in other parts of europe...
Edit: Sorry Death-but that's the truth...LOL


what do you mean we "had it coming"? my grandparents, aunt, and many other family members were "volksdeutschers" as you call them. do you mean that they deserved to be put into liquidation camps and treated nearly as bad as the jews in the holocaust????
 
 i meant volksd. closely cooperated with the nazis-here in serbia they were the chief propagators of nazism before the war. 1 million serbs lost their lives in WWII - so it's not hard to conclude why people wanted revenge of some sort...i know there was probably a better way, but how can u explain that to those who were under german occupation for 4 years and were treated as ''lesser people''- for every german that was killed, 100 serbs were shot...Once germans shot 7000 schoolchildren , because 70 of their soldiers were killed by our resistence...so it's very. VERY easy to see why "THEY HAD IT COMING"...And i'm perfectly aware innocent people suffer in every war - and much better then you, if i may add-because i live in this time bomb called balcans...
 
Btw- at the time a croat named JOSIP BROZ TITO was the ''allmighty'' in yugoslavia-so ask Maljkovic why did he allow epellation of germans...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Achilles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2006 at 12:26
Socrates, war is hell. and i am truely sorry for the schoolchildren that were shot. however, being put into extermination camps is MUCH, MUCH worse in my opinion that being treated like 2nd class citizens. And Volksd. children were subjected to HORRIBLE things(i can not give you any details right now, becasue i am at school and dont have any of my books with me).
 
i dont understand your last statement about Tito and Maljkovic could you please reword it?
Der Erste hat den Tod,
Der Zweite hat die Not,
Der Dritte erst hat Brot.

Fur immer frei und ungeteilt
-always free and undivided-

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Death Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2006 at 01:02
Wait a second.............here is the deal and im speaking only about Vojvodina:
Before the 2ww and during it volksdeutschers were mostly landlords so the whole population worked for them- Serb, Hungarian,Croat,other......
Sure they were proud of their sons going to the Wermacht and wining to war but i think that life was preety much the same for 95 % of the poor people....they had to work for money then before and during........
I could give you exsamples of vilages where one peson was shot and for fiering at the army alone......there was no retribution,no payback,........just that one man died.....................it was like shooting at the police then.......you get the picture.........
And as soon as Russians came in the list began to apear...........the lists of Germans that were in fact the owners of the land and who gave jobs to those same people that made the lists......................etc
One hill behind the vilage, one night,............about 100 Germans less,...............that hurts.It hurts because there is always one or two guys that want more then they deserve and are ready to kill to get it.I could go on and on about this and tell you the reasons for it all,and even some facts and maybe exuvation spots but a lot of time pased and THERE WAS A WAR GOING ON................................so im gona quit.
War changes people!I cant justify either side nor do i want to.
My point-Vojvodina has its problems now but look at the bright side...........Vojvodina is a small EU with all her nations..............too bad all arent Vojvodinians.
Many nations -that is the history and trade mark of Vojvodina.
Im sorry for not geting to the point earlier and i hope we talk less of the bad things,......if yiou have the need-write a book.............what am i saying,im the first that is a pesimist.lol
Of the topic: one question(philosophical),.....does a pessimist feel good when he/she is sad?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2006 at 02:37
Originally posted by Achilles Achilles wrote:

Raider i know Slavonia is now part of modern day Croatia, i was wondering about the past
No Slavonia was never part of Vojvodina. Vojvodina is a post-worldwar creation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Death Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2006 at 09:22
No Raider it aint,.............its a Maria Teresia creation.
Vojvodina always had its authonomy not counting the last ten years of the 20th century.

Vajdasag-have you heard of it ever?

Im a bit suprised that you Raider, a felow Hungarian, dont know that....................then what do you care, we are all cigany to you guys.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Socrates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2006 at 10:17
Originally posted by Death Death wrote:

War changes people!I cant justify either side nor do i want to.
 
Couldn't agree more...
 
i dont understand your last statement about Tito and Maljkovic could you please reword it?
 
Volksdeutschers couldn't be expelled without his permission-with him being no. 1 man in Yugoslavia - and he was a Croat - so i was just making a minor provocation for Maljkovic (if it is a provocation)...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2006 at 06:57
What is the history of the Romanians in Voivodina?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Death Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2006 at 09:50
The part of south Banat(Serbian Banat)  still has a large population of Romanians.  Not counting  the Germans the mayority of people were simple people,poor,ordinary workers.
The older generation of inhabitants(about 50-60 years) are multilingual.It is not rare to find a Romanian man speaking 3-4 languages.
My opinion is that the Romanians in Vojvodina had it better then the Romanians in their homecountry,like the rest of people(Slovak,Hungarian,...)
Vojvodina had a specific status and developed faster and more then any of the regions in the former Monarchy.

One interesting thing- south Banat in Vojvodina is the western end of the Central Asian stepes so the climate there raises a very tough people,the old type.That just fascinates me- stepe nomads(wel not realy nomads) but very hard core,lol.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2006 at 11:50
But are these Romanians result of a migration or are autochtonous?

I remember that in 2002 I passed through Serbia, crossing the Danube by Drobeta Turnu Severin. We went tens kms by a incredible wonderful landscape, very intact naturaly. Surprisingly, all the people were speaking a very clean Romanian. Later I heard that these are Timoc Valley (so not Vojvodina) Romanians.  I dont know what the historiography says about the origin of both Vojvodina and Timoc Romanians.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Death Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2006 at 12:30
Everybody came from somewhere,its more a mater of when.Tough luck that Romanians here are a result of a migration.At least not for the last 80 years from when Vojvodina is under Serbian rule.
Maybe in the period of queen Maria Teresia- there was a whole lot of moving then.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2006 at 12:35
Do somebody know if these Romanians have particularities which indicates their origin (Transylvania, Oltenia)?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2006 at 18:19
To my knowledge, Romanians in Voivodina and the Serbian Banat have been there for a very long time, et least since the Middle Ages. To really answer the question of exactly how long they've been around, one would have to get in the whole question of the origin of the Romanians. Some theories (those of Daco-Roman continuity) actually postulate that the Serbian Banat actually formed a part of the original core area of the formation of the Romanians. Which would mean that it is the Serbians and not the Romanians who are the true immigrants in the area.
The theories which postulate that Romanians only migrated to Romania in the 12th and 13th centuries have been largely discredited. A migration has not been excluded, but it would have occured early, before the 8th century, and it is possible that Romanians (Vlachs) could have lived in the Serbian Banat area before such a migration anyway.
Make sure to check out the map indicating the supposed nucleus of the formation of the Romanian people.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2006 at 09:06




From logical point of view, the Romanians are from South ofDanube origin, from North of Danube, or both.


All the facts are proving that they are from North of Danube, with small or not at all South contribution, excepting the cultural influence, especialy the spreading of Christianism, even if groups of Christians existed in Carpathians from 3rd century and continuously later, as the archaeology confirm.



The archaeological researches

In the last decades it was proved clearly the existence of the romanized population in the Carpathian basin (Transylvania) and the presence of the descendents of Dacians outside the former Roman province, in a process of romanization which lasted untill 7 and 8th century.


All the Roman cities proves an improvised habitation after the administration and army retreat, habitation which lasted one or two centuries. The continuity of Daco-Roman villages is very well proved in many places, before and after the second half of 3rd century.





Esential are the original cultures developed by autochtonous after the Roman abandonment.

In Transylvania there is the Bratei culture, of indubitable Daco-Roman origin (the romanized Dacians preserved elements of Dacian culture), which lasted from 4th to 7th century, with several locations in the Carpathic basin. The most important is that of Bratei, named after the first discovered and most important place, where there are three cemeteries of the romanic (and Gepidic in one case) population:





The Western free Dacians also suffered a process of romanization, as proves discoveries like that of Mediesu Aurit and Simleul Silvaniei.
(you could read these in Romanian:
http://www.cimec.ro/scripts/arh/cronica/detaliu.asp?k=304
http://www.cimec.ro/scripts/arh/cronica/detaliu.asp?k=1513 these are some recent sites about I found information).
They were influenced by both Carpathic and Panonian romanics and Christianism, as discoveries from 4th century and later proved.



The Dacians from Muntenia started to get romanized in 2-3rd centuries, as their culture, Militari-Chilia (with over a hundred locations and rich discoveries) proved, like this ceramic fragment:



Later, in 4-5th century they developed a culture called Ciresanu, which together with Brateiu in Transylvania and Costisa in Moldavia constituted aspects of a common heritage, Dacic and Roman in substance (the ceramics are of Dacic tradition but the Roman heritage is present). The links between these zones is obvious.



In Moldavia there is the Costisa-Botosana culture, lasting from 3rd to 7th century:




In 5-7th century in Muntenia and South Moldavia developed the Ipotesti-Candesti culture, with many locations:


Check this information about one of the most interesting sites, Vadu Sapat / Budureasca (Prahova county):

http://www.cimec.ro/Arheologie/cronicaCA2004/text/205.htm in Romanian.

That pages has images:

http://www.cimec.ro/Arheologie/cronicaCA2004/planse/205/index.html




These cultures were continuated in the next centuries, 8, 9 and later by other cultures, very well illustrated in all regions. To say just few words, In Transylvania, Crisana and Banat there are the fortified cities like the ones from Dabaca, Biharia, Vladimirescu and others. In Moldavia there are big localities and two fortified cities. In Wallachia there are the Bucov and Dridu cultures.




Check out these archaeological maps:





Autochtonous in the former Roman province, 3-6th centuries





Christian discoveries between 3-6th centuries






Presence of  autochtonous and migrators in 4-6th centuries.





Localities in 6-7th centuries












The linguistic characteristics

The Romanian language miss any characteristic of a Southern origin. Even the origin in today Serbia is not acceptable because in that region it was a continous organized civic and religious life which cannt be signalized in Romanian language. The Christian words of Latin origin shows clearly the interuption of the contacts between the Carpatic Christianism and the imperial controled regions. The best example is the word biserica, which is not present in any other Balcanic language.
Check out other Laatin origin Christian words: Dumnezeu, cruce, Vargura (Fecioara), înger, sânt (sfânt), botez, altar, tâmpla, duminica, sarbatoare, Craciun, Paste, Rusalii, Paresimi, ajun, preot, cuminecatura, cumândare (pomana), rugaciune, închinare, câslegi, cârnelegi, lege, credinta, zau, raposat, priveghi, mormânt. cimitir, martor, urare, juramânt, binecuvântare, blestem, pacat, pagân, drac.



The Romanian language preserves ~100 Latin origin words which are not to be found in any other romanic language, including the Balcanic ones. For example: crestin, cântec, ierta, împarat, legana, întâi, lingura, oaie, ospat, placinta, putred, urî, vânat.


In Banat there are preserved some words of Latin origin which are not to be found in other Romanian regions. This shows the existence of a romanic comunity in the today Serbia, which influenced the Banat Romanians and didnt spread more.


The difussion of Latin origin terms in Moldavia shows the latinization of this province from the Transylvanian influence. In fact there is not any Latin origin term in Muntenia or Moldavia to not be found in Transylvania.






The logic of history

The population of the Roman province would not follow the troups on their retreat, only the rich people should have done this. They were not having reasons to be very scared by migrators. In the regions South of Danube where the troups from Dacia where moved there is no evidence of a growth of population. Not any new city was founded there.


We cant think that a romanic comunity could be founded in Carpathians by migrations, because a migration could take place in two ways:
-in a great wave, which is not mentioned in Byzantine sources and which should lead to the founding of a political organization
-in small groups, which would not lead to such an omogenous language and culture like that of Romanians.





The ethnographic heritage

The folk culture of Romanians is the richest and finest in Europe. It's variety and richness from region to region is extraordinary and is hard possible to be the result of a nucleus of population which migrated here from elsewehere.







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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Death Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2006 at 10:29
You killed it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Achilles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2006 at 15:13
pretty much after the Romanian thing people lost interest
Der Erste hat den Tod,
Der Zweite hat die Not,
Der Dritte erst hat Brot.

Fur immer frei und ungeteilt
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Yugoslav Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2009 at 00:13
Originally posted by Maljkovic Maljkovic wrote:

The truth is that Serbian presence in Vojvodina dates only as far as the 18. century. Serbs became a majority only after WWII, when all the local Germans and a lot of Hugarians, Romanian and Croats were expelled and replaced with Serbs from central Serbia. 


Uh, that's not quite true...
"I know not with what weapons World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote evilbu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-May-2009 at 18:38
Originally posted by Maljkovic Maljkovic wrote:

Ah, more lies from the Serbian imperialist Jay...

The truth is that Serbian presence in Vojvodina dates only as far as the 18. century. Serbs became a majority only after WWII, when all the local Germans and a lot of Hugarians, Romanian and Croats were expelled and replaced with Serbs from central Serbia. 


I have always found it surprising that ethnic Germans were expelled from so many places (Kaliningrad, modern Poland, Czechoslovakia, ...) while ethnic Hungarians were not expelled from places like southern Slovakia, Transylvania, Vojvodina... Why the different treatment?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dacian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-May-2009 at 03:37
Originally posted by evilbu evilbu wrote:

Originally posted by Maljkovic Maljkovic wrote:

Ah, more lies from the Serbian imperialist Jay...

The truth is that Serbian presence in Vojvodina dates only as far as the 18. century. Serbs became a majority only after WWII, when all the local Germans and a lot of Hugarians, Romanian and Croats were expelled and replaced with Serbs from central Serbia. 


I have always found it surprising that ethnic Germans were expelled from so many places (Kaliningrad, modern Poland, Czechoslovakia, ...) while ethnic Hungarians were not expelled from places like southern Slovakia, Transylvania, Vojvodina... Why the different treatment?



my guess is that the germans were considered the ebildoers after the ww2 and the hungarians were considered the ebildoers after ww1

and we all know that between ww1 and ww2 was too short for some definitive population movement....while after ww2 there was plenty of time for the germans to be driven out

such is the way of history
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Yugoslav Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-May-2009 at 14:12
Originally posted by evilbu evilbu wrote:

Originally posted by Maljkovic Maljkovic wrote:

Ah, more lies from the Serbian imperialist Jay...

The truth is that Serbian presence in Vojvodina dates only as far as the 18. century. Serbs became a majority only after WWII, when all the local Germans and a lot of Hugarians, Romanian and Croats were expelled and replaced with Serbs from central Serbia. 


I have always found it surprising that ethnic Germans were expelled from so many places (Kaliningrad, modern Poland, Czechoslovakia, ...) while ethnic Hungarians were not expelled from places like southern Slovakia, Transylvania, Vojvodina... Why the different treatment?


A lot Hungarians fought for the Yugoslavian Partisans. Aside from one horrible incident of killings of Magyars in the Backa region angered by collaboration, the Hungarians received quite a good status in Communist Yugoslavia - their received a distinct region, Vojvodina, which had Hungarian one of the official languages and it evolved into the highest autonomy in Europe.

You see, in domestic Yugoslavian press, the Hungarians were not depicted as agressors, but as mere servants under a fascist dictator that opresses them, Horthy. The wartime press in itself called for "the liberation of Hungaria". Nazi Germany was pointed out as the country that practically holds Hungary as if it was a puppet-state. A bit overestimatingly, as a historian I might say, but even all the crimes any Hungarian did, were propagated at the Germans as responsible, and thus the more hatred towards the Germans.
"I know not with what weapons World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones."
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