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Forum LockedHistory of Mughal-Pathans

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Post Options Post Options   Quote yas245 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: History of Mughal-Pathans
    Posted: 27-Jan-2009 at 11:56
Originally posted by Aryan de Pakhtra

 
If you are originally from India or Panjab, and go to Afghanistan or NWFP then you will not be considered Pashtun; you will probably be considered "Hindki" or "Hindkowan". Hindki have been living in Afghanistan for centuries, primarily in Kabul and Kandahar, as well as NWFP and speak Hindko which is Indo-Aryan language besides Pashto.
 
Although Dardics also speak Indo-Aryan languages, and live in eastern Afghanistan and northern NWFP, yet they are considered closely related to Pashtuns instead of Hindki.


But what if I'm originally from Pukhtunkhwa or Afghanistan and then a migrant in Punjab (due to the Pakhtun colonisation in Parts of Punjab) ???

What would you catergorize Raj Kapoor as ?



Edited by yas245 - 27-Jan-2009 at 12:00
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Aryan de Pakhtra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2009 at 15:23
Originally posted by yas245

 
But what if I'm originally from Pukhtunkhwa or Afghanistan and then a migrant in Punjab (due to the Pakhtun colonisation in Parts of Punjab) ???

What would you catergorize Raj Kapoor as ?

 
If you are originally from Afghanistan or Pashtunkhwa and can prove as well, then you will be considered purely Pashtun.
 
Raj Kapoor is not Pashtun; he is probably Hindki or Panjabi.


Edited by Aryan de Pakhtra - 27-Jan-2009 at 18:01
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cheeta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2009 at 20:02
Yusuf Khan or Deleep Kumar is a Pathan. Among Muslims there is not much preferred the difference of breed or culture, many Muslims have been having authorities outer their own folk like the thousands of Arabs being on active duty in the army of Navab of Deccan and Turkish and Caucasian Memlukes being as the rulers of Egypt, etc. All that has been improtant is the personal qualities of the man or group. This thing prevails there where there is not prejudice exists like that of castes and languages. In modern times the ture Islamic values are being mostly vanishing and the authorities being not like in the design of the past lack such qualities and massess dwelling in neighbourhood or mixed remain in open hostile manner to each other. One may see the quarrel of Turkmen and Kurd nationality in norther Iraq on the possession of the city of Kirkuk where they have been living for centuries without a conflict. Similar is the case in Karachi Pakistan where there are more than three groups in conflict to master the city.
Where there has been no quarrel of language and racial prejudice nationalities have merged with each other and newcomers have been welcome and diluted. Most of the Turks of Asia Minor or Modern Turkey possess qualities and body appearances of eastern Romans like Greeks and other nations of the region being most converted to their religion and further with inter relations.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ZAYAN KHAN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2009 at 14:10
Hi All.
 
I am new on this forum. My Real Name is Amir Khan and I am from Cape Town, South Africa. I have made some enquiries and was told that my family originates form Afganistan and we are Pathans. How do I get hold of information as to the history of my family as none of my family members can actually assist me with this. I am very interested in tracing any family that I may have in Afganistan and would like to oneday make contact with them.
It runs in my blood
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cheeta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2009 at 19:59
Do ask about the place and the branch of family you said as did belong to in Afghanistan. If all that fails and you do not have any information then do start with an Afghan family branch in South Africa with the name of your father or grandfather who had migrated there. If the first man of your ancestor there was Ahmad Jan or Salim Khan then start by then as Ahmad Kheil or Salim Khel, South African Afghan. You are to be attached to the land you are living now. 

Edited by Cheeta - 23-Feb-2009 at 20:30
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Indian Pathan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Apr-2009 at 14:46

Salam & thanks Marco-Polo,

You are right in describing the Pathans, originally, they are from Afghanistan.  But they settled in subcontinent and other part of the world.  I am from, Hassanpur, Distt. Moradabad, UP, India, New Delhi.  We are Mahmand tribe and my forefathers came during the period of Jahangir, the Mughal king to this area.  if you study, there are everywhere pathans in modern India, especially, western UP's all cities, Hydrababhad, Patna and SasaRam (in Bihar, where Sher Shah suri, remained a long time, and his and his familily's mazars are there). My grand father knew Pushto language. We have our 'Shajra'.
 
Thanks again,
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Post Options Post Options   Quote yas245 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2009 at 21:25
I was reading Punjab Caste by Sir Denzil Ibbetson, which is readily available to download here : http://www.archive.org/stream/panjabcastes00ibbe/panjabcastes00ibbe_djvu.txt,
and in it he had the following Observation :
2,510 persons have returned them-
selves as Pathan by caste and
Mughal by tribe, of whom 1,169
are in the Peshawar district ... (p.212)
This extract was detailed underneath the report findings of the Mughal Tribes, in particular this was of the Chaghatta tribe, and the numbers are just figures from a consensus report (so that shouldnt cause confusion).

My issue is, What does it mean to identify yourself from a Pathan Caste and a Mughal Tribe ??
I mean is that even possible ??

Edited by yas245 - 16-Apr-2009 at 21:37
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Indian Pathan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Apr-2009 at 08:22
Anyone has specific detail of Mahmand tribe of Pathans, coming to the India (present day), I mean how and in which period they came. Thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote yas245 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Apr-2009 at 18:45
Is there such a thing as Pathan Caste?

If there is then could it be what this person described in another Forum:

"My dada told me that we are not the same as Pashtuns, he said they use the word Pathan to describe their ethnicity and for us its used to describe our caste, we’re Pathan (high caste, farmers, landlords, ghairatmand) as opposed to the Kami’s i.e. Potters (Kumhaar), Barbers (Nai), Carpenter’s (Mistri), Weavers (Julaahey), Shoemakers (Mochi) etc."


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Indian Pathan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2009 at 06:47
In Islam there is no cast system like other religions, the one who has 'Taqwa' (fear of God) is near to Allah (SWT), Arabs are not higher than others and others are not higher than Arabs (this is the mafhoom[similar to translation] of an hadeeth). Just for identification we can give a name to our group.
 
The message of brother yas245 is not understandable. thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote yas245 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2009 at 22:24
Originally posted by Indian Pathan

In Islam there is no cast system like other religions, the one who has 'Taqwa' (fear of God) is near to Allah (SWT), Arabs are not higher than others and others are not higher than Arabs (this is the mafhoom[similar to translation] of an hadeeth). Just for identification we can give a name to our group.
 
The message of brother yas245 is not understandable. thanks.


Brother, I know Islam doesen't tolerate a caste system, but that doesent answer my question. I wanted to know whether such a caste existed and what it really meant. My initial thought was people wern't using it in the sense that one is higher or lower, but rather as an indication of ethnicity. In my case and in the case of my friend who started the thread, the strange thing is we have a mix of identities - We are Mughal-Pathans. I was only enquiring so it would help me understand what Mughal Pathan really meant. As far as i know we are Mughal by Tribe, which leaves a huge question mark on the Pathan aspect.

So, having just said that, it should make things a little clearer to you, but it would of helped if you had read the whole thread beforehand.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Indian Pathan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Apr-2009 at 06:25
Brother yas245, yes for those things we have to study and find like of Mughal Pathans. I too think the same, they were just using only for indentification of ethnicity. In indian part as for as I know these are two different identities, Mughal and Pathan.  I offer one nice Sha'er to you :
 
Ek hi saf mein khadey ho gai Mahmood wo Ayaz,
Na koi bandah raha na bandah nawaz.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Apr-2009 at 05:51
The confusion of caste arises from the fact that over time under Islamic influence various Indian origin non pathan/pakhtun communities in India assumed the identity of high profile well to do muslim communities like mughals and pathans.
 
So ethnically they are non pashtun communities that have adopted other identities to compensate for leaving the hindu caste system. In effect attempting to create an alternative caste system where they could still enjoy privilege by distinction.
 
It is also true that some pathan families involved in menial work due to hardships would not disclose their identities as pathans from a sense of shame.
 
Also, simply appearances alone are not a qualifier for pathan origin, Kashmirs are often mistaken for pathans. It is perfectly possible for kashmiri communities that speak local dialects other than their own from pakhtun dominated areas to be confused with the pakhtuns themselves.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Indian Pathan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Apr-2009 at 06:34
Thanks, Malizai, But I read in some books, in Kashmir too, Pathans came from Afghanistan, not all kashmiri are pathans but there are some tribes of Pathans. We should study and find out the realities.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Apr-2009 at 23:28
Originally posted by Indian Pathan

Thanks, Malizai, But I read in some books, in Kashmir too, Pathans came from Afghanistan, not all kashmiri are pathans but there are some tribes of Pathans. We should study and find out the realities.
 
Indeed there are pathan communities all over the northern sub continent, isolated as well as conjugal communities of pathans all over northern india like in uttar pardesh. kashmiris of course have seperate ethnic identity, culture, psyche and customs. I was just alluding to the close proximity of the two communities and the apparent similarity of appearence to the outsider, making possible cases of mistaken identity based on the place of abode of either.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Indian Pathan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Apr-2009 at 07:25
Thanks Malizai, if you know some site of Pathans History from the Begining.  And I want to know when exactly, I mean the period of time when "Mahmand" Qabila or tribe came from Afghanistan to 'Presnet India'. as I heard they used to come with the kings or rulers at that time.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-May-2009 at 02:28
Originally posted by Indian Pathan

Thanks Malizai, if you know some site of Pathans History from the Begining.  And I want to know when exactly, I mean the period of time when "Mahmand" Qabila or tribe came from Afghanistan to 'Presnet India'. as I heard they used to come with the kings or rulers at that time.
 
There are numerous sites on pathan history and they will tell u about numerous and often conflicting beginnings. Pathans or pakhtuns are notoriously difficult to pin down in anthropological terms, aided by their general illiteracy and bloated egos u will get alternative self confessed histories of their ethnogenesis depending on who u speak to.
 
You may also need to consider multiple migrations of any one tribe to a single locality and single migration to multiple localities. The most important factor for reversing history of any tribe would therefore be locality.
 
It is true that pathans have been the fodder of multiple invasions and factions irrespective of religion or creed, but there also have been migrations to enlist. Akbar in his time defined their movements as ants and locusts.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Indian Pathan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-May-2009 at 07:55
Thanks a lot, keep in touch.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote yas245 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2009 at 00:53
Originally posted by malizai_

Also, simply appearances alone are not a qualifier for pathan origin, Kashmirs are often mistaken for pathans. It is perfectly possible for kashmiri communities that speak local dialects other than their own from pakhtun dominated areas to be confused with the pakhtuns themselves.


Yes that is true, but you can't deny both Pukthuns & Kashmiri's already inherit similar physical fetures obvious to the eye. Whereas, Punjabi's in comparison to Pukhtuns or Kashmiri's don't naturally ( except those bordering the NWFP and Azad Kashmir ). How commonly do you see Punjabi's being confused for Pukhtuns or Kashmiri, unless there are real obvious features, very rarely. For some Punjabi's to claim Pathan origin may infact be because of their appearence, but it would be a very weak claim. But if it is then backed up with their ancestors being foreigners in the land they live, then it maybe a truer claim.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Indian Pathan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2009 at 07:05
Yes, me to, I find quite similarity in colour, shape and the way of behaving of Pathans in western UP and the Pathans in Kashmir. But none of them speak Pushto language. So they are spred in whole of India. specially in northan part, UP, Bihar, MP and Hydrabad.
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