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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2006 at 16:33
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We can spend all day throwing contradicting numbers at each other.


The fact that there are such contradicting numbers should prove that neither position is fully right. Although I still believe my position is more right.

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What I see is a growing number of high-level debates & actions on an issue you don't consider a real concern.


I don't consider it a real concern since I believe that the whole of nature is stronger than anything humanity can throw at it.

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just a question for all animal and non-animal lovers. Would anybody have a problem if the mosquito became extinct?


Very much so, many insectivores would find a plentiful food supply gone so quickly, not to mention the extinction of many disease carrying organisms.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2006 at 16:39
Originally posted by Ponce de Leon Ponce de Leon wrote:

just a question for all animal and non-animal lovers. Would anybody have a problem if the mosquito became extinct?
 
It's probably a crucial part of some food chains & maybe other species in those food chains would become 'history'.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote omshanti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2006 at 17:40
Hello JanusRook. Are you arguing just for the sake of argument? From the way you write I assume you to be a teenager or in your early twenties at the most.     I'm just joking.
Any way I guess it was my fault that I wrote my post in a way that someone like you could just pick,pick, pick. Let me clarify things first.
Originally posted by JanusRook JanusRook wrote:

Morality though is subjective   

    I know that really well , that is why I asked your opinion and wrote ''I think'' before giving my opinion, however I do think that there are some universal moral codes such as compassion , generosity , humanity and love.
Originally posted by JanusRook JanusRook wrote:

Are you claiming you have a superior moral code to the man in the photo.

    No , That was not the point of my argument.
Originally posted by JanusRook JanusRook wrote:

His moral code sees it as a struggle to conquer a beast that has quite a good chance of conquering him. He is trying to prove his strength is comparable to the majestic creature.

That is not his moral code , it is his Ego, two quite different beasts. Think about it from the polar bear's point of view, this man who has nothing to do with him/her suddenly turns up and tries to prove his strength to him/her. What if the poor polar bear had cubs waiting for food at home?
Originally posted by JanusRook JanusRook wrote:

. The real question is do you believe it's morally right for natives to hunt polar bears? And if so, why do they get acceptance when the non-native doesn't?-]

    Based on examples from other parts of the world such as the relationship between the Bison and the native Americans, indigenous peoples have usually lived in harmony with their natural environment taking only what they need for food, clothing and shelter. Bearing in mind the landscape of the Inuits, their main sustainable food source are the animals that live there. If you had read my post carefully and considered rather than reacting, you would have noticed that my answer to your question was already there. Let me quote myself.
Originally posted by omshanti omshanti wrote:

I don't think it is right to kill any living creature just for pleasure or sport.     


You wrote
Originally posted by JanusRook JanusRook wrote:

. Your belief places humans outside of the natural order. Making them the obstruction in nature. I contend that humans have never left the natural order,

If I believed that humans are outside of the natural order, I wouldn't have written this.
Originally posted by omshanti omshanti wrote:

Until now other animals have paid for the mess humans make , but I am sure that if we do not take global warming seriously and don't take action , some time in the near future it would be humanity itself that will be the victim of the mess it is making.

    I do think that humans are not in harmony with the nature any more and have lost their respect for it.

JanusRook , you are very welcome to have the last word if you want , it seems like that is what you care most for in this thread, but please have a little respect towards the topic of this thread and other posters. If you do not care for animals or their well-being it makes me wonder why you wanted to write in this thread at all. Merely to play devils advocate?

    Take a look at this for some well researched fact on climate change. Click the following link.     CLIMATE CHANGE FACTS
    
    
    

Edited by omshanti - 09-Dec-2006 at 17:47
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2006 at 23:58
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Are you arguing just for the sake of argument? From the way you write I assume you to be a teenager or in your early twenties at the most.


Partly correct on one count, fully correct on another

Quote
compassion , generosity , humanity and love.


None of these have to apply to man's relationship to animals they can just apply to man's relationship to man.

Quote
hat is not his moral code , it is his Ego, two quite different beasts. Think about it from the polar bear's point of view, this man who has nothing to do with him/her suddenly turns up and tries to prove his strength to him/her. What if the poor polar bear had cubs waiting for food at home?


I'll give you it's his ego, I think that it's pathetic that people have to kill something to inflate their own self-worth. However I don't think that the cubs well being is important, nature is cruel, that polar bear could just as likely drown or be attacked by a killer whale, and those cubs would be in the same situation. It's just one of those random chance events that happens.*

*Granted it is a chance event that could have been prevented, but you can't control everything, eliminating killer whales would be another way to eliminate a chance event.

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 Based on examples from other parts of the world such as the relationship between the Bison and the native Americans, indigenous peoples have usually lived in harmony with their natural environment taking only what they need for food, clothing and shelter.


So their respect for nature is so great, that they sell their hunting permits to outsiders?

What are your opinions then on the Norwegian whale hunters, historically they have been engaging in this activity for hundreds of years, it is essential a part of their culture, should they be allowed to continue this practice if a sustainable quota is given?

Quote

If I believed that humans are outside of the natural order, I wouldn't have written this.

 I do think that humans are not in harmony with the nature any more and have lost their respect for it.


So we are inside of the natural order but not in harmony with it?

Has technology been the root of this, because our ancestors made the mammoths and other megafauna of the world extinct before we had major breakthroughs in technology.

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JanusRook , you are very welcome to have the last word if you want , it seems like that is what you care most for in this thread


Sorry, if I've offended, I know how some people can get when you make light of the plight of animals. I actually do care about animals, which is why I don't mistreat them, or advocate an active policy of extermination. Such as what happened to the Bison. I don't agree with the practice of putting the welfare of animals over the welfare of people, however I do believe in accomadation.

Quote
Merely to play devils advocate?


Sorry, but I do enjoy to do that. Although most of what I say, I actually mean. Such as, I see no problem with people hunting endangered species. However I would prefer if the government would put into place a policy similar to what loggers have, chop down one tree plant two. This could be implimented in for every time you hunt you must pay X amount of dollars to a government conservation fund.


On a more friendly note, and a little more on topic, humans aren't always the great destroyer's of animals. Squirrels, Deer, Foxes and Raccoons have all thrived in the absence of predators and the creation of shelters. Even the peregrin falcon, has had a major rebound taking up home in major cities where skyscrapers mimic it's native cliffs.

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    Take a look at this for some well researched fact on climate change


That part of the discussion has gone a little out of hand. If you'd like I could open a new thread or I could discuss it with you in a pm.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ponce de Leon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2006 at 21:29
does anybody know why "the man" created the myth about "wolly mammoths" anyway?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote QueenCleopatra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2006 at 09:28
http://www.thebigcats.com/
 
My own animal preferences are for Big Cats, arguably some of the most beautiful creatures on earth. My favourites are the Tigers. I think they are the most beautiful and mysterious of all the Cats and iit's a shame they are so endangered.
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by QueenCleopatra - 12-Dec-2006 at 09:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2006 at 17:47
Is that last one an ocelot?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2006 at 08:35
Originally posted by QueenCleopatra QueenCleopatra wrote:

 
 
Awesome.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2006 at 08:55
Originally posted by QueenCleopatra QueenCleopatra wrote:

 
 
We have these cougars in Canada, along with bobcats (lynx rufus) and Canadian lynx (lynx canadensis).
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2006 at 10:26
White Yangtze dolphin may be extinct.
 
"An expedition searching for a rare Yangtze River dolphin ended Wednesday without a single sighting and with the team's leader saying one of the world's oldest species was effectively extinct."
 
"Around 400 baiji were believed to be living in the Yangtze in the 1980s. For 6 weeks, Pfluger's team of 30 scientists scoured a 1,000-mile heavily trafficked stretch of the Yangtze, where the baiji once thrived. The expedition's boats, equipped with high-tech binoculars & underwater microphones, trailed each other an hour apart without radio contact so that a sighting by one vessel would not prejudice the other."
 
"A few baiji may still exist in their native Yangtze habitat in eastern China but not in sufficient numbers to breed and ward off extinction."
 
"We have to accept the fact, that the Baiji is functionally extinct. We lost the race."
 
"It is a tragedy, a loss not only for China, but for the entire world."
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Knights Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2006 at 15:42
Originally posted by JanusRook JanusRook wrote:

Is that last one an ocelot?


Close, looks a lot like an ocelot. It is a Clouded leopard (Neofelis Nebulosa), endemic to South East Asia. Very Beautiful Cat indeed. They have the longest canine teeth of any cat for their size - up to 8cm! Kind of like a modern day Smilodon.

Also, Thankyou Queen Cleopatra for posting those awesome pics of big cats - tis very cool! Big smile Hope to see more of you around!

Excuse my delayed response but I've been holidaying, and I'll be back in a few days

Peace out

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Knights Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2006 at 15:44
Originally posted by Hellios Hellios wrote:

Originally posted by QueenCleopatra QueenCleopatra wrote:

 
 
Awesome.
 


Awesomeness Indeed....coolest cat on the block!!!!!! Cool

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eondt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2006 at 01:20
While on the subject of big cats...below are pictures of white lions. There are only +-50 known white lions. Also note that these aren't albino, but white due to a recessive gene, similar to the gene that causes blond and red hair in humans.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote omshanti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2006 at 02:16
Wow , great pictures! Somehow all those big cats look so intelligent and wise. Much more so than average humans in pictures. They also project so much intensity and confidence through their eyes. Beautiful. No wonder C.S. Lewis used a lion for the character of Aslan in The Chronicles of Narnia.
Hellios , Thank you for sharing with us the information about the white Yangtze dolphin.
Eondt, I didn't know about the existence of white lions at all. Very interesting. Thank you for that information.
    
    
    
    
    
    

Edited by omshanti - 14-Dec-2006 at 05:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2006 at 08:27
 
There are also white tigers. Also not albino's but a different type of Tiger. Some Indian sultan bred them I think, they are closest to Indian tigers. A zoo close to me has a few, really cool.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2006 at 08:35
Originally posted by JanusRook JanusRook wrote:

Quote What I see is a growing number of high-level debates & actions on an issue you don't consider a real concern.

I don't consider it a real concern since I believe that the whole of nature is stronger than anything humanity can throw at it.
 
The question however is not wether there is proof or not. I live in a country that is mainly under sea-level. If the polar caps melt, we drown.
The question is are we willing to take that change? There are few negative results in trying to be kinder to nature, but there are very large negative results for everybody if the doom-view turns out to be true. Putting a little effort in preservation is a win-win situation.
 
That being said, I think you are smarter than that Janus, and I think you gave these remarks just to get Hellios wound up. If not, I'm dissapointed.
 
 
Quote
Quote just a question for all animal and non-animal lovers. Would anybody have a problem if the mosquito became extinct?
Very much so, many insectivores would find a plentiful food supply gone so quickly, not to mention the extinction of many disease carrying organisms.
 
According to my uncle (who is a biologist) mosquitos and gnats have no important role in the system. Yes animals feed on them, but there are plenty of other insects to take over when they go, so the extinction of mosquitos would not have much effect, except for the dissapearance of a few diseases like malaria and dengue. So,....:
KILL THE BASTARDS!


Edited by Aelfgifu - 14-Dec-2006 at 08:37

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2006 at 10:28
omshanti & knights (our zoologist), Wink
 
Some reasons why ursus maritimus is classified as a marine mammal:
 
- diet is aquatic & sub aquatic prey.
 
- spends most of its time in or at the water. Smile
 
 
- paws webbed.
 
 
- front arms bowed, for swimming (makes them look funny when moving on land). Smile
 
 
- nostrils close when submerged.
 
- ears pull in close to head when submerged.
 
 
- swims for several hours over long distances (tracked swimming approx 10 hours non-stop over 98 km).
 
- dives/swims at depths between 4.5 meters to up to 6 m (recorded) for several minutes before surfacing for air.  Deeper/longer unrecorded dives have been reported.
 
 
 
- can leap out of water up to 2.25 meters in the air to get onto icebergs/ice floes or to surprise seals resting on ice floes.
 
 
- so well insulated they tend to overheat on land, so they try to move slowly on land unless otherwise needed (40 km/hr).
 
- so efficient at heat retention they don't show up on infrared thermographic scanners.
 
- body shape designed for water dynamics.
 
- hollow hairs help with buoyancy.
 
 
- water-repellent hairs shake off water.
 
 
- very agile in & under water - agile enough to catch fast moving fish or engage bigger prey like seals & walruses.
 
 
- only predator is mankind & killer whales (orca) & orcas usually don't bother with them.
 
Smile
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2006 at 18:36
Quote If the polar caps melt, we drown.


It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when. Climate change will cause the polar ice caps to melt, and evidence shows that this is probably sooner than later. I disagree though that this is largely mankind's fault, I believe the true culprit is natural processes that have decided to coincide with our sudden industrialization.

However, there are a few misconceptions that I believe need to be cleared. The only Polar Ice cap anyone has to worry about is the South Pole. Since the North Pole is floating in ice, it's mass is all ready accounted for, and if it was melted today, it would not increase the amount of water in the ocean so sea levels would not rise. No, rising coastlines occur when land ice trickles into the sea, thus adding more water to the ocean, Greenland could possibly be a concern, but recent studies have shown that Antarctica acts in a cyclical fashion where ice periodically grows and shrinks. I don't think there is enough data yet to confirm if it's a natural process though.

More importantly though, sea ice does not raise sea level.

Quote Putting a little effort in preservation is a win-win situation.


I think conservation is the better alternative though.

Quote
That being said, I think you are smarter than that Janus, and I think you gave these remarks just to get Hellios wound up. If not, I'm dissapointed.


Honestly though, I do believe that global warming is not a man-made phenomena, even with rising temperatures we are still living in one of the coldest periods of our history. I also believe that it is wrong to try and come up with man-made "solutions" to a natural "problem".

I know humans are awesome and all, but it took hundreds of thousands if not millions of years for an entire planet's biomass of cyanobacteria to alter the earth's atmosphere from methane/ammonia to the nitrogen/oxygen blend we find today, I find taken this achievement that 100 years of humans tampering with the atmosphere have "ruined the earth".

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KILL THE BASTARDS!


But don't the viruses have a right to live, errr mostly live, errr, exist?

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Close, looks a lot like an ocelot. It is a Clouded leopard


Darn, I could've sworn it was an ocelot, say do you guys consider an ocelot a small big cat or a big small cat?

Quote
While on the subject of big cats...below are pictures of white lions.

Quote
There are also white tigers.


It's nice to note that in my hometown zoo, the Cincinnati Zoo you can find both white lions and white tigers. In fact the Cincinnati Zoo is world reknowned for it's breeding program with the white tigers. Most of the white tigers you'll find in zoo's can trace their lineage back to Cincinnati. (Siegfried and Roy have an agreement with the zoo as far as breeding programs are concerned). Also first born in Cincinnati where all-white tigers, called ghost-tigers because their stripes only show up under certain lights.

Here are some ghost tigers:





Edited by JanusRook - 14-Dec-2006 at 18:38
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Knights Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2006 at 22:36
Originally posted by JanusRook JanusRook wrote:



Darn, I could've sworn it was an ocelot, say do you guys consider an ocelot a small big cat or a big small cat?



Well the ocelot, along with things like cheetahs, clouded leopards, snow leopards, lynxes.etc are very tricky in how you class them. Generally you can consider any cat that is bigger than a domestic one as a generic 'big cat'. However, the scientific fact behind the matter is that true big cats are only made up of 4 species, differentiated to the others in the felidae family through several physiological aspects.

The 4 true big cat species belong to the genus 'Panthera'. There are numerous subspecies within these, but put simply they are:

- Tiger (Panthera Tigris)

- Lion (Panthera Leo)

- Jaguar (Panthera Onca)

- Leopard (Panthera Pardus)

This is a rather controversial list, as many zoologists believe that pumas, cheetahs and snow leopards (even Clouded leopards and lynxes) deserve a place too.

A few things that set these four cats apart from all others are:

- The arrangement of the bones in head. The Hyoid bone (which connects the tongue to the roof of the mouth) of Big Cats is incomplete in its ossification (the process of bones forming) causing a looser fit within the voicebox bones. Big Cats have an elastic segment within the hyoid whereas those of the small cats are hard all over. Also the larynx of Big Cats is formed differently (slightly morphed) to those of all other cats. (NOTE: Snow Leopards also possess incomplete ossification of the hyoid, but the structure of the Snow Leopard's larynx is not morphed into the fashion of true big cats) The result of this arrangement and morphing gives the true 4 big cat species the ability to roar (and purr) while all other cats cannot roar.

Hyoid bone in human: (It's the bold black thing at the bottom in throat)
http://www.rdbflute.com/hyoid.jpg

- The pupils are an identifiable feature for classing the big and small cats. Big Cats gave round pupils whereas the small cats tend to have slits or ellipses. This idea has its holes though, for example the lynx (classified as a small cat) has round pupils.

Tiger eye (big cat) -- round        Lynx (small cat) eye -- Round       Domestic Cat (small cat) eye -- Slit/Ellipse
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/images/040714_tarzantiger1.jpghttp://www.sigmaphoto.co.uk/imphotography/aimages/a1077832757_1_7_a.jpghttp://www.ryde.net/photo/3/images/up_sixtenoga.jpg


- A scratchy (not fully scientific) way of classing the big cats is by weight/size. All 4 species grow to over 75kg when adults. Although, Male Pumas and Snow leopards are able to pip the 75kg mark which introduces confliction. Nevertheless, BIG cats are not named unaccordingly.

- Another way in which you can class big cats is by the fact that they tend to lay down while feeding. You may not notice it but when cats like Sand Cats (Felis Margarita), Margays (Felis Wiedi) and Ocelots (Felis Pardalis) etc. (all 'small cats') feed they have to either crouch or stand up to properly consume and digest their food. On the other hand, big cats are supposedly unable to stand while eating. Of course, there are exceptions, like the snow leopard which can stand or lie down or whatever it pleases!
NOTE: I heard this somewhere and have seen it on a few websites, as well as on a info-sign at the zoo; but I do not know of its credibility. Any disagreements are welcome/encouraged because of my unsurity.


In conclusion, I refer to a big cat by the true scientific term. Ocelots I refer to as big small cats, because it is true - they are in the larger half of small cats, at around 11-16kg (25-35 lb I think??).

Ocelot:
OcelotOcelot


Originally posted by Hellios Hellios wrote:



... & Knights (our zoologist) Wink



Hug                   LOL


Peace out

- Knights -







Edited by Knights - 15-Dec-2006 at 22:38

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote QueenCleopatra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2006 at 12:21
Originally posted by Aelfgifu Aelfgifu wrote:

 
There are also white tigers. Also not albino's but a different type of Tiger. Some Indian sultan bred them I think, they are closest to Indian tigers. A zoo close to me has a few, really cool.
 
Awwww! They are just adorable! And the adult is really beautiul. I love tigers in case you haven't guessed.LOL
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