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Forum LockedHistorical maps of the Vlachs regions

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The Chargemaster View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Historical maps of the Vlachs regions
    Posted: 07-Sep-2006 at 07:16
An interesting site in greek language about the vlachs in Greece: http://www.tamos.gr

There are images & maps in that site.  ...also

An example: the vlach villages in Pindus/Pindos mountain in 1900:

http://www.tamos.gr/images/Pindosl.gif




Edited by The Chargemaster - 07-Sep-2006 at 07:22
The Intelligence wins
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2006 at 07:56
maria_d Could you say to me please whereyou this map has? thank you
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2006 at 09:53

I have done a digital photo of page 196 of the book "Mapping the world" of the National Geographic.      The book was edited in 2006, in Washington (USA).      The map is from the original in the "Library of Congress"  (Washington) and was done by A.D. Atanasiu in 1919 under the name "Carte Ethnographique des Macedo-Roumains (Koutzo-Valaques)".     The original map is part of the "La question des Macedo-Roumains ou des Koutzo-Valaques a Versailles" that can be read in french at www.vlachopiles.net/macedo-roumains.htm                     Maria D.

P.S.: congratulations Greco, many of your maps are gorgeous!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2006 at 11:36

I have another digital photo of the Atanasiu map of 1919.

Here it is.        Maria D.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2006 at 15:03
Do you still have maps on the subject? Because I am since a Vlach and me this interests very much.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2006 at 16:49
Sorry. These were the only maps about Vlachs that I have found.  If I'll find someone, I'll post quickly.
If you are a Vlach and want to be informed about your people on the web, there are two good sites full of articles and maps:
Maria D.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2006 at 16:52
thank you...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 20:45
I hope you'll find more maps about the Vlachs, Greco.
You are "flooding" the forum with beautiful and interesting maps...Clap
Maria D.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2006 at 06:22
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Sep-2006 at 13:09
Thank you Maria d. for your Atanasiu map.
But about the Diamantis's Principality of Pindus? Nothing?
The only idea of the size comes from the Wikipedia: it says that the Principality of Pindus was in the Italian occupied Greece and included Epirus, Macedonia and all of Tessalia.
Bruno

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Sep-2006 at 12:49
Here it is another ethnic map of the southern Balkans, with data of 1905 .  The Vlachs areas are painted in light blue south of Albania.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 09:25
Vlachs groups 1769
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 09:27
http://www.vlachs.gr/b9.htm
the diaspora of the grammosteans group
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Sep-2006 at 23:51
Originally posted by maria d.

Yes, Bruno, there was a little "Principality of Pindus" in the mountains between Epirus, Macedonia and Tessalia during the italian occupation of Greece in WWII, but I cannot find any map about.
Anyway, I have found this map from the "Library of the Congress" in Washington/USA related to the tentative of the Vlachs to create a small State in 1919, during the conference of peace in Paris.
It is not the area originally proposed by Italy and France around Korce in Albania, but it shows a little mountanous region that was promoted in the Pindus mountains by the Romanians as a possible autoctonous Vlach State after WWI.
I guess that A. Diamantis may have used this map for his small Principality of Pindus in 1941.  Maria D.    
 
Thank you, Maria D., for the very interesting map above.
I have done my own research too, and I have found this excerpt from a 1906 book (author: H. Brailsford) about Macedonia and the Albanian communities living there:
"...The second claimant (for a possible future Albanian State) is a certain Prince Albert Ghica, who comes of a family of Albanian origin, long resident in Roumania. It has given Hospodars (Governors) to the old Wallachian provinces and diplomats to the modern kingdom, and enjoys princely rank in the Austrian Empire. Prince Albert is a comparatively young man with plausible manners and a dubious past, who speaks fluent French, and knows neither one word of the Albanian language nor the elements of Albanian geography. He has been chosen honorary president by one of the numerous clubs of Albanian immigrants in Bucharest, and on the strength of this social honour poses in European hotels as the chief-elect of the Albanian people. He talks of venturing in person into Albania and raising the flag of revolt. We shall see.

His claim is interesting, only in so far as his programme contemplates a union of the Vlach and Albanian causes. He asserts, probably without any basis, in fact, that he has the support of the Conservative party in Roumania, and may therefore be backed by the Roumanian propaganda in Macedonia and Albania.       His modest dream is a VLACHO-ALBANIAN STATE embracing all the five vilayets of Albania and Macedonia. But the Vlachs are neither numerous nor warlike nor unanimous, and they are much too cautious to rise in support of such a chimera as this. As for the Albanian chieftains, one does not see them accepting the leadership of a denationalised adventurer from Bucharest. The Khedivial family of Egypt might, if it possessed a cadet of character and parts, prefer a claim with some measure of reason, inasmuch as Mehemet Ali, the founder of the House, was an Albanian soldier of fortune. But no member of this family has so far shown any practical interest in Albania, or done anything to assist the national propaganda. On the whole it would be best to seek a Prince from some reigning family of Europe. He must not be a Slav, since the prejudice of the Albanians against all Slavs is quite ineradicable. It would be well that he should not be a Catholic, since he will have so many Orthodox subjects who have been taught to regard the Latins as worse than the Turks. A Protestant would probably be the most generally acceptable candidate. "

As you can see this is the FIRST tentative of create a Vlach state, even if with the Albanian population of 1906. 
I will post a map showing the five Vilayets (that are the most western of the Ottoman Empire in the Balkans of 1906).   Bruno
 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2006 at 07:00
    

I want say that the link between the Daco-Romanians and Aromanians is made based on their language heritage and appeared in 18-19th century.

Romanians and Aromanians are not exactly the same people, we each other have our own identity which should be preserved.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2006 at 10:13
Maria d., here it is the map I have created to show the proposed Vlacho-Albanian State of Prince A. Ghica in 1906 (borders are done with my green line).
It includes the Ottoman Vilayets of:
1) Ioannina in violet color
2) Shkoder in orange color
3) Monastir in light green color
4) Salonica in grey color
5) Skopje in yellow color

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2006 at 07:35
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2006 at 15:19
Originally posted by Menumorut

    

I want say that the link between the Daco-Romanians and Aromanians is made based on their language heritage and appeared in 18-19th century.

Romanians and Aromanians are not exactly the same people, we each other have our own identity which should be preserved.
 
Menumorut, I am puzzled by the neo-latin Timok valley language: is it Vlach or Romanian? If you see the map given by Greco (that reflects the Serbian political position) the language is not romanian speaking (but Vlach)
Other maps support the opinion that in Timok valley the neo-latin people speak Romanian. What is your opinion? Do you have maps about?
In Wikipedia I have read terrible discussions between Serbs and Romanians on the  issue!  Here you have a map from Wikipedia, that shows the Serbian point of view.        Bruno

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2006 at 21:53
Originally posted by brunodam

Thank you Maria d. for your Atanasiu map.
But about the Diamantis's Principality of Pindus? Nothing?
The only idea of the size comes from the Wikipedia: it says that the Principality of Pindus was in the Italian occupied Greece and included Epirus, Macedonia and all of Tessalia.
Bruno
 
Well, Bruno, I am still looking for a map of the Principality of Pindus.... Meanwhile I want to post for you this excerpt from Wikipedia about the first "creation" of A. Diamandis : the "Republic of Korce" in Albania, around the remnants of the former destroyed capital of the Vlachs, Moschopolis.
 
...."It is not clear whether he (A. Diamandis) was discharged from the Romanian Army or rather dispatched by the Romanians to Albania where, under the Italian and French tutelage (see Birth of Albania), he became in 1918 co-founder of the short-lived Republic of Korytsá (Korçë in Albanian, Curceaua in Aromanian), which was supposed, under the makeshift name of the 'Republic of Pindus' to be the first autonomous state of the Vlachs of Epirus...."
 
Of course, a map of this short-lived Republic of Koritza/Curceaua/Korce is going to be very difficult to find. 
May be some other forumer is going to be more lucky.Smile   Maria d.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Sep-2006 at 05:54

Names of the Aromanians

There are several names of the Aromanians used throughout the Balkans, both autonyms (like armân) and exonyms (like Vlach).

 

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Aromanian

The name Aromanian, just as Romanian, derives directly from Latin Romanus ("Roman") through regular sound changes. Adding "a" in front of certain words that begin with a consonant is a feature of the Aromanian language, in order to make it easier to pronounce.

In Greece variants include arumâni and armâni. An older form of "rumân", was still found in 19th century, in folk songs in Greece. In Albania, the most common form is rămăńi, with occasional forms rumăńi and romăńi.

There's also another form, used especially by the Aromanians of Romania, aromân, which is a modern creation, being a merge between the român form used by the Daco-Romanians and arumân used by the Aromanians in Greece. The English form, "Aromanian" is also created by analogy with the word "Romanian".

Vlach

Main article: Etymology of Vlach

Vlachs was a term used in the Medieval Balkans, as an exonym of Germanic origin for all the Romanic people of the region, but nowadays, it is commonly used only for the Aromanians and Megleno-Romanians, the Romanians being named Vlachs only in historical context and in Serbia. Greeks also use the name kutsovlach "Limping Vlach".

Macedo-Romanian

Macedo-Romanian (macodo-român, derived from "Macedonia" and "Romanian") is a form created by the modern linguists and ethnologists in analogy with the other Eastern Romance language: Daco-Romanian (or proper Romanian) in Dacia, Istro-Romanian in Istria and Megleno-Romanian in Meglena. Although quite often used, it is a rather improper form, as the Aromanians can be found all across the Balkans, not only in Macedonia.

Tsintsar

Another name used to refer to the Aromanians (mainly in the Slavic countries such as Serbia and Bulgaria) is tsintsar, derived from the way the Aromanians pronounce the /ʧe/ and /ʧi/ as /ʦe/ and /ʦi/. However, there is also a theory that says that the term is derived from the way the Aromanians say the word 'five': tsintsi.

Other names

  • çoban - "shepherd", a term used by some of the Turks, as well as the Albanians, although Albanians also use "vla" (derived from "Vlach") and rëmër
  • rëmër, "Roman", an Albanian word derived from "Romanus", the word shows the phonetical changes in Albanian since the Roman times, showing that since ancient times, the Albanians always had some contacts with the Balkan Romans.
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